Summer Internships and Corona Forum

[dwil770]

None of this really makes sense and some of the stuff being said is quite odd on thinking about it more.

A. No one is paying to work at S&C, they recruit like the top 10-25% from T6 schools. Their summers presumably had other offers from firms that aren't cutting pay. They recruit us, not the other way around. Just as a personal example, they didn't pay to have limos take us from campus to their firm reception out of some idea students owe them anything.

B. By all accounts above, you were also told you were getting paid for 8 weeks on the phone, and that isn't true. Why would them guaranteeing you an offer mean anything special? You pretty much already had that offer prior to them randomly canceling the program. S&C offered 100% of their summers last year, so did pretty much all of their competitors. None of their competitors are canceling their programs, so it seems pretty unlikely there was going to be some battle royale for spots at the firm this summer (we actually know this can't be true because they halved pay and gave everyone an offer - the cost of giving 100 people a sure salary must be magnitudes larger than paying for an extra 3 weeks per summer). Most of their competitors are guaranteeing full pay and offers. S&C sticks out like a sore thumb with this cost-cutting with very little benefit, which is why I asked about their financials.

C. Like the only benefit being argued here is that they don't have to work. But summer programs aren't exactly known for being rigorous anyway, and virtual programs seem even less rigorous than normal - hence why all their competitors are guaranteeing pay and offers. A fair number of their summers are probably going to work anyway to either make up lost income or get experience, so they're probably working more than their friends for less money.

This. 7 of the V10s have guaranteed full pay (I'm assuming Cravath will) and most have guaranteed offers too. Some like Cravath, Gibson Dunn and Paul, Weiss have already decided to cut their programs to 4-6 weeks, in which case those summers will also stay home and do nothing, but still get paid more than S&C. Getting 20k and a job offer is no joke, but if someone took a job offer at S&C over its peers they got screwed. I think its pretty reasonable to be a little upset about that.

S&C summers may be able to make some of it up filing for unemployment because they were scheduled to start a new job but cannot because of Coronavirus. Probably a question you could ask HR

[Anon115523]

What are remote firms going to give summers to keep them busy for weeks? Can’t imagine 4-5 weeks of work, much less 8ish

Were summers really ever kept busy for 8 hours normally? I imagine it'll be research memos, plus the occasional zoom meeting with attorneys in practice groups, and then the summers won't actually work anywhere close to a full day--really only needing to be "available" when something concretely is scheduled, so long as they turn things in on time?

YMMV but there were days during my summer where I worked 9:00am-9:00pm. I also got put on a pretty hectic production where I worked all of 4th of July weekend. There were also days I came in at 10:30 and left at 4 cuz there wasn't much work for me. Plus anytime there was an event, that day was probably wrapping up for us around 4. And whenever we went out for lunch, that was typically a 2 hour affair. All in all, I think I averaged 6 billable hours/day during my summer.

[Anonymous User]

Kirkland is doing a 2 week remote summer in June. Paying for the full summer and guaranteeing 2021 offers.

I think the last two pieces will be common among the top firms but I haven’t seen a 2-week summer from anyone else yet.

I wish that firms maintaining their full summer programs would have just done this instead of making all of its summers sit on Zoom for 10 weeks.

Anon because I will be an SA at one of those firms.

[Anonymous User]

Damn. I wish Jones Day would have just done this instead of making all of its summers sit on Zoom for 10 weeks. No idea how they're going to keep us busy.

I'd rather not have to work the full amount of time, although I expect that they won't be keeping us busy. So, instead, we'll just keep polishing whatever random research assignment we've been given b/c it's the only thing on our plate for days at a time.

[Anonymous User]

Are SAs not allowed to also work as a research assistant for a professor? One of my professors asked me if I could help him out with a project this summer. I agreed to help him and didn't even consider that my firm (V20 that's not KE) might not allow this. I was planning on doing the 5-10 hours per week over the weekend. Can I still work for my professor?

KE sent its SAs this email (according to Reddit): "Please be aware that you are not able to work in another position while you are employed by Kirkland, including unpaid work of a legal nature, such as pro bono or research assistant roles. While our virtual programming will take place between June 15 and June 26, please note that if you had planned to spend the full summer with Kirkland, your employment dates will be June 1-August 7."

Anon for obvious reasons.

[trebekismyhero]

Are SAs not allowed to also work as a research assistant for a professor? One of my professors asked me if I could help him out with a project this summer. I agreed to help him and didn't even consider that my firm (V20 that's not KE) might not allow this. I was planning on doing the 5-10 hours per week over the weekend. Can I still work for my professor?

KE sent its SAs this email (according to Reddit): "Please be aware that you are not able to work in another position while you are employed by Kirkland, including unpaid work of a legal nature, such as pro bono or research assistant roles. While our virtual programming will take place between June 15 and June 26, please note that if you had planned to spend the full summer with Kirkland, your employment dates will be June 1-August 7."

Anon for obvious reasons.

Depends on your firm's policy, but I doubt it would be a problem. When I was a SA, I worked as a paid TA at the same time and it wasn't an issue.

[Anonymous User]

Are SAs not allowed to also work as a research assistant for a professor? One of my professors asked me if I could help him out with a project this summer. I agreed to help him and didn't even consider that my firm (V20 that's not KE) might not allow this. I was planning on doing the 5-10 hours per week over the weekend. Can I still work for my professor?

KE sent its SAs this email (according to Reddit): "Please be aware that you are not able to work in another position while you are employed by Kirkland, including unpaid work of a legal nature, such as pro bono or research assistant roles. While our virtual programming will take place between June 15 and June 26, please note that if you had planned to spend the full summer with Kirkland, your employment dates will be June 1-August 7."

Anon for obvious reasons.

Depends on your firm's policy, but I doubt it would be a problem. When I was a SA, I worked as a paid TA at the same time and it wasn't an issue.

Anon OP. Thank you. Did you ask your firm if it would be a problem? I read over my offer letter and it didn't say anything, so I'm leaning towards reaching out just to be fully transparent with the firm.

[trebekismyhero]

Are SAs not allowed to also work as a research assistant for a professor? One of my professors asked me if I could help him out with a project this summer. I agreed to help him and didn't even consider that my firm (V20 that's not KE) might not allow this. I was planning on doing the 5-10 hours per week over the weekend. Can I still work for my professor?

KE sent its SAs this email (according to Reddit): "Please be aware that you are not able to work in another position while you are employed by Kirkland, including unpaid work of a legal nature, such as pro bono or research assistant roles. While our virtual programming will take place between June 15 and June 26, please note that if you had planned to spend the full summer with Kirkland, your employment dates will be June 1-August 7."

Anon for obvious reasons.

Depends on your firm's policy, but I doubt it would be a problem. When I was a SA, I worked as a paid TA at the same time and it wasn't an issue.

Anon OP. Thank you. Did you ask your firm if it would be a problem? I read over my offer letter and it didn't say anything, so I'm leaning towards reaching out just to be fully transparent with the firm.

It has been a while so I don't remember. I might have emailed recruiting just to confirm it was ok.

[Anonymous User]

Weil - full summer pay with (likely) remote start day sometime after June 15. Offers for 2Ls. Offers for 1Ls contingent on working for the firm next summer.

[Anonymous User]

Is there anything to make of the firms that have not yet let their summers know any update about their summer summer associate program

[Anonymous User]

Simpson - 8 weeks pay with remote start on July 13th. $7500 additional stipend for participating in community service efforts during the summer. Offers given as they have in years past.

[Anonymous User]

If a firm hasn't guaranteed offers at this point, do you think they'll still probably offer everyone?
SA at JD and getting rather nervous, especially with the current state of the economy. In 2009, JD only offered 77% of its summer class.

[Anonymous User]

Should summers wear dress shirts during calls/meetings? Does it depend on if its a mid-level associate vs. partner? Can any current biglaw employees comment on how associates and partners have been dressing for remote work? It seems kind of silly to put on a dress shirt when you're not leaving your house.

[cavalier1138]

Should summers wear dress shirts during calls/meetings? Does it depend on if its a mid-level associate vs. partner? Can any current biglaw employees comment on how associates and partners have been dressing for remote work? It seems kind of silly to put on a dress shirt when you're not leaving your house.

I would definitely start out wearing a dress shirt for video calls. Then go with what you observe attorneys wearing.

It's no different than it would be if you were summering at the office. Err on the side of formal until you get comfortable with the tone of the specific firm.

[Anonymous User]

If a firm hasn't guaranteed offers at this point, do you think they'll still probably offer everyone?
SA at JD and getting rather nervous, especially with the current state of the economy. In 2009, JD only offered 77% of its summer class.

I doubt JD will ever guarantee 100% offers, but I don't think the offer rate will significantly change this year. There are usually a few no-offers every year, but the ones I've seen while at the firm have been justified (extreme behavior/personality issues, usually not work product-related). Our office is acting like we're full steam ahead as far as summers go. They're putting a lot of work into the program. Just be enthusiastic and try to engage (as much as possible given the virtual program) and I don't think there will be any issues.

I'm a junior in a transactional group that has very little work right now and I've been really happy with how JD has handled the crisis so far, FWIW.

[Anonymous User]

If a firm hasn't guaranteed offers at this point, do you think they'll still probably offer everyone?
SA at JD and getting rather nervous, especially with the current state of the economy. In 2009, JD only offered 77% of its summer class.

I doubt JD will ever guarantee 100% offers, but I don't think the offer rate will significantly change this year. There are usually a few no-offers every year, but the ones I've seen while at the firm have been justified (extreme behavior/personality issues, usually not work product-related). Our office is acting like we're full steam ahead as far as summers go. They're putting a lot of work into the program. Just be enthusiastic and try to engage (as much as possible given the virtual program) and I don't think there will be any issues.

I'm a junior in a transactional group that has very little work right now and I've been really happy with how JD has handled the crisis so far, FWIW.

Do people subtly put you on notice if you're behaving inappropriately? I get paranoid about these things and I'm already worried I had a bit too much wine at an SA offer dinner. Although as far as I remember I didn't say anything too crazy and left after dessert to avoid doing so.

[DiligentSage]

Should summers wear dress shirts during calls/meetings? Does it depend on if its a mid-level associate vs. partner? Can any current biglaw employees comment on how associates and partners have been dressing for remote work? It seems kind of silly to put on a dress shirt when you're not leaving your house.

I would definitely start out wearing a dress shirt for video calls. Then go with what you observe attorneys wearing.

It's no different than it would be if you were summering at the office. Err on the side of formal until you get comfortable with the tone of the specific firm.

This all the way. I'd perhaps caution that you might want to keep on erring on the side of formal even after you observe everyone else wearing T-shirts or a hoodie (or at least, that seems what is commonplace for everything short of client meetings nowadays in CA and as a corporate midlevel in an EC/VC practice, it would be a rather stuffy client to not also be dressed similarly at this juncture) since you run the risk of being opposite a partner who gets dressed as if he/she's going to the office, but even then, I'd imagine there's a fair amount of leeway given the current environment.

Bottom line is that you don't want to stand out in a way that could give a negative impression, even if said impression is largely ridiculous (i.e. "Oh, [summer associate X] is never dressed to snuff, he/she is so unprofessional"). So if everyone's gravitated toward polos, maybe keep a dress shirt on, if everyone's wearing T-shirts/hoodies, maybe keep the polo on. But overall, it's a fairly small risk and I wouldn't bat an eye at how a SA was attired given the current environment.

[QContinuum]

This all the way. I'd perhaps caution that you might want to keep on erring on the side of formal even after you observe everyone else wearing T-shirts or a hoodie (or at least, that seems what is commonplace for everything short of client meetings nowadays in CA and as a corporate midlevel in an EC/VC practice, it would be a rather stuffy client to not also be dressed similarly at this juncture) since you run the risk of being opposite a partner who gets dressed as if he/she's going to the office, but even then, I'd imagine there's a fair amount of leeway given the current environment.

Bottom line is that you don't want to stand out in a way that could give a negative impression, even if said impression is largely ridiculous (i.e. "Oh, [summer associate X] is never dressed to snuff, he/she is so unprofessional"). So if everyone's gravitated toward polos, maybe keep a dress shirt on, if everyone's wearing T-shirts/hoodies, maybe keep the polo on. But overall, it's a fairly small risk and I wouldn't bat an eye at how a SA was attired given the current environment.

Agree 100%, and I'm someone who's done a bit of dress code boundary-pushing over the years. I'd do a dress shirt and either tie or jacket for men (equivalent "dressy side of business casual" for women) initially, then ramp down to dress shirt only sans tie. Obviously, if you have the misfortune of working with seniors who dress up office-style, or if there's some instruction from the firm to dress up, then you should dress up accordingly. Conversely, if everyone you work with wears a polo shirt or less, then maybe ramping down to polo shirt is fine, but I wouldn't drop below the polo shirt ever even if others show up wearing ratty T-shirts and pajamas, and I wouldn't drop below a dress shirt for at least the first week. If it's a mix of some associates wearing dress shirts and some associates dressing down, you should wear a dress shirt too. And if you're invited to join a video call with a client, I'd do at least a dress shirt regardless of what others show up wearing.

tl;dr Err on the side of being overdressed. Don't be ridiculously overdressed, but definitely err more on potentially being overdressed than dressing too casually.

Also: use virtual backgrounds. If your video software doesn't allow you to use a virtual background, position your camera so your bed doesn't show up in the background, if at all possible. Apparently some folks have a real thing about seeing people's beds in a video call.

[Anonymous User]

This all the way. I'd perhaps caution that you might want to keep on erring on the side of formal even after you observe everyone else wearing T-shirts or a hoodie (or at least, that seems what is commonplace for everything short of client meetings nowadays in CA and as a corporate midlevel in an EC/VC practice, it would be a rather stuffy client to not also be dressed similarly at this juncture) since you run the risk of being opposite a partner who gets dressed as if he/she's going to the office, but even then, I'd imagine there's a fair amount of leeway given the current environment.

Bottom line is that you don't want to stand out in a way that could give a negative impression, even if said impression is largely ridiculous (i.e. "Oh, [summer associate X] is never dressed to snuff, he/she is so unprofessional"). So if everyone's gravitated toward polos, maybe keep a dress shirt on, if everyone's wearing T-shirts/hoodies, maybe keep the polo on. But overall, it's a fairly small risk and I wouldn't bat an eye at how a SA was attired given the current environment.

Agree 100%, and I'm someone who's done a bit of dress code boundary-pushing over the years. I'd do a dress shirt and either tie or jacket for men (equivalent "dressy side of business casual" for women) initially, then ramp down to dress shirt only sans tie. Obviously, if you have the misfortune of working with seniors who dress up office-style, or if there's some instruction from the firm to dress up, then you should dress up accordingly. Conversely, if everyone you work with wears a polo shirt or less, then maybe ramping down to polo shirt is fine, but I wouldn't drop below the polo shirt ever even if others show up wearing ratty T-shirts and pajamas, and I wouldn't drop below a dress shirt for at least the first week. If it's a mix of some associates wearing dress shirts and some associates dressing down, you should wear a dress shirt too. And if you're invited to join a video call with a client, I'd do at least a dress shirt regardless of what others show up wearing.

tl;dr Err on the side of being overdressed. Don't be ridiculously overdressed, but definitely err more on potentially being overdressed than dressing too casually.

Also: use virtual backgrounds. If your video software doesn't allow you to use a virtual background, position your camera so your bed doesn't show up in the background, if at all possible. Apparently some folks have a real thing about seeing people's beds in a video call.

I'm assuming the thing about wearing a suit on the first day no longer applies

[Anonymous User]

This all the way. I'd perhaps caution that you might want to keep on erring on the side of formal even after you observe everyone else wearing T-shirts or a hoodie (or at least, that seems what is commonplace for everything short of client meetings nowadays in CA and as a corporate midlevel in an EC/VC practice, it would be a rather stuffy client to not also be dressed similarly at this juncture) since you run the risk of being opposite a partner who gets dressed as if he/she's going to the office, but even then, I'd imagine there's a fair amount of leeway given the current environment.

Bottom line is that you don't want to stand out in a way that could give a negative impression, even if said impression is largely ridiculous (i.e. "Oh, [summer associate X] is never dressed to snuff, he/she is so unprofessional"). So if everyone's gravitated toward polos, maybe keep a dress shirt on, if everyone's wearing T-shirts/hoodies, maybe keep the polo on. But overall, it's a fairly small risk and I wouldn't bat an eye at how a SA was attired given the current environment.

Agree 100%, and I'm someone who's done a bit of dress code boundary-pushing over the years. I'd do a dress shirt and either tie or jacket for men (equivalent "dressy side of business casual" for women) initially, then ramp down to dress shirt only sans tie. Obviously, if you have the misfortune of working with seniors who dress up office-style, or if there's some instruction from the firm to dress up, then you should dress up accordingly. Conversely, if everyone you work with wears a polo shirt or less, then maybe ramping down to polo shirt is fine, but I wouldn't drop below the polo shirt ever even if others show up wearing ratty T-shirts and pajamas, and I wouldn't drop below a dress shirt for at least the first week. If it's a mix of some associates wearing dress shirts and some associates dressing down, you should wear a dress shirt too. And if you're invited to join a video call with a client, I'd do at least a dress shirt regardless of what others show up wearing.

tl;dr Err on the side of being overdressed. Don't be ridiculously overdressed, but definitely err more on potentially being overdressed than dressing too casually.

Also: use virtual backgrounds. If your video software doesn't allow you to use a virtual background, position your camera so your bed doesn't show up in the background, if at all possible. Apparently some folks have a real thing about seeing people's beds in a video call.

I'm assuming the thing about wearing a suit on the first day no longer applies

I'm still planning on it just to be safe. Does that seems like a ridiculous move to people?

[DiligentSage]

This all the way. I'd perhaps caution that you might want to keep on erring on the side of formal even after you observe everyone else wearing T-shirts or a hoodie (or at least, that seems what is commonplace for everything short of client meetings nowadays in CA and as a corporate midlevel in an EC/VC practice, it would be a rather stuffy client to not also be dressed similarly at this juncture) since you run the risk of being opposite a partner who gets dressed as if he/she's going to the office, but even then, I'd imagine there's a fair amount of leeway given the current environment.

Bottom line is that you don't want to stand out in a way that could give a negative impression, even if said impression is largely ridiculous (i.e. "Oh, [summer associate X] is never dressed to snuff, he/she is so unprofessional"). So if everyone's gravitated toward polos, maybe keep a dress shirt on, if everyone's wearing T-shirts/hoodies, maybe keep the polo on. But overall, it's a fairly small risk and I wouldn't bat an eye at how a SA was attired given the current environment.

Agree 100%, and I'm someone who's done a bit of dress code boundary-pushing over the years. I'd do a dress shirt and either tie or jacket for men (equivalent "dressy side of business casual" for women) initially, then ramp down to dress shirt only sans tie. Obviously, if you have the misfortune of working with seniors who dress up office-style, or if there's some instruction from the firm to dress up, then you should dress up accordingly. Conversely, if everyone you work with wears a polo shirt or less, then maybe ramping down to polo shirt is fine, but I wouldn't drop below the polo shirt ever even if others show up wearing ratty T-shirts and pajamas, and I wouldn't drop below a dress shirt for at least the first week. If it's a mix of some associates wearing dress shirts and some associates dressing down, you should wear a dress shirt too. And if you're invited to join a video call with a client, I'd do at least a dress shirt regardless of what others show up wearing.

tl;dr Err on the side of being overdressed. Don't be ridiculously overdressed, but definitely err more on potentially being overdressed than dressing too casually.

Also: use virtual backgrounds. If your video software doesn't allow you to use a virtual background, position your camera so your bed doesn't show up in the background, if at all possible. Apparently some folks have a real thing about seeing people's beds in a video call.

I'm assuming the thing about wearing a suit on the first day no longer applies

I'm still planning on it just to be safe. Does that seems like a ridiculous move to people?

For day one, no. For the whole summer, yes. And besides, if you're sitting at home anyways, you can pull off your tie or drop the jacket if you notice everyone else is chilling in casual clothing.

[QContinuum]

For day one, no. For the whole summer, yes. And besides, if you're sitting at home anyways, you can pull off your tie or drop the jacket if you notice everyone else is chilling in casual clothing.

I feel like you could probably get away with not doing it even on day one - people are so much more flexible and understanding these days - but I think the best thing is to go all out with business formal on day one. It's what I'd do if I were about to start my summer associateship this year. Unless your firm sends out an email expressly saying it's not necessary - in which case you can rely on the email. But otherwise, no, not at all ridiculous to go business formal on day one.

[RaceJudicata]

For day one, no. For the whole summer, yes. And besides, if you're sitting at home anyways, you can pull off your tie or drop the jacket if you notice everyone else is chilling in casual clothing.

I feel like you could probably get away with not doing it even on day one - people are so much more flexible and understanding these days - but I think the best thing is to go all out with business formal on day one. It's what I'd do if I were about to start my summer associateship this year. Unless your firm sends out an email expressly saying it's not necessary - in which case you can rely on the email. But otherwise, no, not at all ridiculous to go business formal on day one.

Looking back, If I were a summer, I’d probably go biz formal if it was my first day. But standing in my shoes now, a summer in a full suit and tie will get a lot more laughs than someone who is wearing gym shorts and a t shirt (which isn’t even “underdressed” at this point)

[The Lsat Airbender]

I would do day 1 with tie, no jacket, and then pretty quickly move to t-shirts after that

[crazywafflez]

Just a quick question but what is the best way to show a cancelled SA position on a resume? (I'm still getting paid, reduced and no offer) But should I even put it on there?