Mid-Year Bonuses Forum

[Anonymous User]

Kirkland does not pay above market bonuses. Kirkland pays cravath with some extra on top for very high billers. Lots of firms do that formally or informally. Market is what you do for all associates in good standing/all associates on track to do 2000 etc and in that respect a behemoth like Kirkland is not going to be above market the way wachtell, certain lit boutiques and now apparently Gunderson...are

False. Standard bonus (for which there is no minimum) is slightly above market and goes up proportionally for hours over 2,000 (with qualitative factors potentially contributing extra as well for 4th-6th years). Bonuses generally fall within the 1.25x-1.75x range for most people.

Standard K&E bonus is market. Two years ago, the base was 5% above market, but that was an exception and not the case last year. You earn more(particularly as a junior) based on hours billed. As you highlight, as a mid-level/senior associate, the merit portion of your bonus is the more important factor in determining your payout.

If by "standard" you mean floor, then yeah. All associates rated with class (i.e. 3) or higher get a Cravath bonus, irrespective of hours. But as discussed in the bonus presentation every year and as noted above, the median associate is compensated above Cravath. The median K&E associate gets at least 20% more than the Cravath bonus.

[purpletiger]

Kirkland does not pay above market bonuses. Kirkland pays cravath with some extra on top for very high billers. Lots of firms do that formally or informally. Market is what you do for all associates in good standing/all associates on track to do 2000 etc and in that respect a behemoth like Kirkland is not going to be above market the way wachtell, certain lit boutiques and now apparently Gunderson...are

False. Standard bonus (for which there is no minimum) is slightly above market and goes up proportionally for hours over 2,000 (with qualitative factors potentially contributing extra as well for 4th-6th years). Bonuses generally fall within the 1.25x-1.75x range for most people.

Standard K&E bonus is market. Two years ago, the base was 5% above market, but that was an exception and not the case last year. You earn more(particularly as a junior) based on hours billed. As you highlight, as a mid-level/senior associate, the merit portion of your bonus is the more important factor in determining your payout.

If by "standard" you mean floor, then yeah. All associates rated with class (i.e. 3) or higher get a Cravath bonus, irrespective of hours. But as discussed in the bonus presentation every year and as noted above, the median associate is compensated above Cravath. The median K&E associate gets at least 20% more than the Cravath bonus.

People need to stop debating Kirkland bonuses and get back to agitating for Gunderson matches.

[Ultramar vistas]

Kirkland does not pay above market bonuses. Kirkland pays cravath with some extra on top for very high billers. Lots of firms do that formally or informally. Market is what you do for all associates in good standing/all associates on track to do 2000 etc and in that respect a behemoth like Kirkland is not going to be above market the way wachtell, certain lit boutiques and now apparently Gunderson...are

This is just flatly wrong. The whole firm gets a presentation every bonus season showing the stats. I took notes last year, and the average associated got about 120% market. Essentially nobody gets market or below - very low billers are getting 105%ish. Depending on class year, a substantial proportion (a third or so) of the class are getting between 125% and 150% of market.

[Wild Card]

What's a third-year bonus? $25k? What's an extra 20%? 5k? So that's 30k? Or, after tax, 18k?

I guess that will help you pay off your 350k in loans a little more quickly.

[dabigchina]

People need to stop debating Kirkland bonuses and get back to agitating for Gunderson matches.

The fact that this has turned into a Kirkland bonus thread speaks volumes about how dead the dream is.

[LaLiLuLeLo]

Is this like that Mad Men scene? Gunderson is trying to play with the big boys and the big boys just say “I don’t even think about you?”

[10b5-1]

What's a third-year bonus? $25k? What's an extra 20%? 5k? So that's 30k? Or, after tax, 18k?

I guess that will help you pay off your 350k in loans a little more quickly.

Cravath Scale is 15-25-50-65-80-90-100

Third years at K&E in my experience rarely get less than 60k. As a 5th year, my bonus was a few grand over 100k (vague for obvious reasons, sorry). Say what you like, but that money mattered to me, anyway - which is why we are all in this thread.

Agree that it is embarrassing that Gunderson is currently setting the standard for the top of the market.

[spyke123]

already had plans for that $$$... this is depressing

[Npret]

already had plans for that $$$... this is depressing

Just curious as to what lead you to believe there would be bonuses?

[dabigchina]

already had plans for that $$$... this is depressing

Just curious as to what lead you to believe there would be bonuses?

i don't think it was unreasonable to think that there would be a bonus. otherwise, there wouldn't be 150+ messages in this thread.

[LaChusa2020]

Kirkland does not pay above market bonuses. Kirkland pays cravath with some extra on top for very high billers. Lots of firms do that formally or informally. Market is what you do for all associates in good standing/all associates on track to do 2000 etc and in that respect a behemoth like Kirkland is not going to be above market the way wachtell, certain lit boutiques and now apparently Gunderson...are

This is just flatly wrong. The whole firm gets a presentation every bonus season showing the stats. I took notes last year, and the average associated got about 120% market. Essentially nobody gets market or below - very low billers are getting 105%ish. Depending on class year, a substantial proportion (a third or so) of the class are getting between 125% and 150% of market.

You’re making me want to go to Kirkland...but even they are currently below the Gunderson scale of summer bonuses

[Fletch23]

Is this like that Mad Men scene? Gunderson is trying to play with the big boys and the big boys just say “I don’t even think about you?”

Maybe, but back in the 90's they bumped the starting salary from $100k to $125k. They've definitely been a player before.

[Npret]

already had plans for that $$$... this is depressing

Just curious as to what lead you to believe there would be bonuses?

i don't think it was unreasonable to think that there would be a bonus. otherwise, there wouldn't be 150+ messages in this thread.

My recollection is that firms last year were clear it was a one time thing. Am I wrong?
I have read this thread and I haven’t seen hard facts about bonuses. Could have missed them. Seems like it’s wishful thinking like that raise thread that existed for years before salaries went up.

[spyke123]

already had plans for that $$$... this is depressing

Just curious as to what lead you to believe there would be bonuses?

i don't think it was unreasonable to think that there would be a bonus. otherwise, there wouldn't be 150+ messages in this thread.

My recollection is that firms last year were clear it was a one time thing. Am I wrong?
I have read this thread and I haven’t seen hard facts about bonuses. Could have missed them. Seems like it’s wishful thinking like that raise thread that existed for years before salaries went up.

isn't it always wishful thinking? how can we, as associates, have hard facts about raises/bonuses ever? Not sure I follow what you are trying to say.

[jimmythecatdied6]

So we aren't getting summer bonuses is what I take from the completely irrelevant discussion above?

[Npret]

already had plans for that $$$... this is depressing

Just curious as to what lead you to believe there would be bonuses?

i don't think it was unreasonable to think that there would be a bonus. otherwise, there wouldn't be 150+ messages in this thread.

My recollection is that firms last year were clear it was a one time thing. Am I wrong?
I have read this thread and I haven’t seen hard facts about bonuses. Could have missed them. Seems like it’s wishful thinking like that raise thread that existed for years before salaries went up.

isn't it always wishful thinking? how can we, as associates, have hard facts about raises/bonuses ever? Not sure I follow what you are trying to say.

I was wondering what information made a poster so sure the bonuses would happened that they already counted on that bonus as income. I thought I asked that to the poster directly.

I felt it was unreasonable to expect a raise after firms stated last year it was a one time thing. But, maybe that poster had some information that I had missed. That’s why I asked.

[LaLiLuLeLo]

JFC it was clearly a joke

[Npret]

JFC it was clearly a joke

I haven’t been on in a while so it maybe went over my head. The whole thread puzzles me anyway.

[TLSDookie]

already had plans for that $$$... this is depressing

Just curious as to what lead you to believe there would be bonuses?

i don't think it was unreasonable to think that there would be a bonus. otherwise, there wouldn't be 150+ messages in this thread.

Ah yes, and the decision to go to Cooley is defensible, otherwise Cooley threads wouldn’t consistently have 100+ messages. Can’t go wrong trusting the wisdom of TLS

[dabigchina]

already had plans for that $$$... this is depressing

Just curious as to what lead you to believe there would be bonuses?

i don't think it was unreasonable to think that there would be a bonus. otherwise, there wouldn't be 150+ messages in this thread.

Ah yes, and the decision to go to Cooley is defensible, otherwise Cooley threads wouldn’t consistently have 100+ messages. Can’t go wrong trusting the wisdom of TLS

Great value add from someone who hasn't even taken the bar yet.

[whats an updog]

it is still early

[Anonymous User]

K&E associate here and would prefer not to be outed. Thank you in advance, mods.

We pay below market, and it's incredibly frustrating to me for there to be a common perception in the community that we pay above market. I think the issue is that most people come from a legal background and do not have an understanding on what "market" means. Market is the average the market is paying for certain services ("market"). Market is not the the base that the majority of firms use when making compensation decisions (the "base").

Almost all firms pay above the base for high billers. When I am billing 2,500 hours at K&E and get an extra $7,500 bonus, this is below market given that I have one friend at a V20 getting $7,500 for 2,400 hours and another friend getting $5,000 for 2,300 hours. K&E most definitely pays above base for high billers, but we pay below market.

Oh, and by the way, if we paid above market, we would have already at least matched Gunderson.

[beeoBoop]

K&E associate here and would prefer not to be outed. Thank you in advance, mods.

We pay below market, and it's incredibly frustrating to me for there to be a common perception in the community that we pay above market. I think the issue is that most people come from a legal background and do not have an understanding on what "market" means. Market is the average the market is paying for certain services ("market"). Market is not the the base that the majority of firms use when making compensation decisions (the "base").

Almost all firms pay above the base for high billers. When I am billing 2,500 hours at K&E and get an extra $7,500 bonus, this is below market given that I have one friend at a V20 getting $7,500 for 2,400 hours and another friend getting $5,000 for 2,300 hours. K&E most definitely pays above base for high billers, but we pay below market.

Oh, and by the way, if we paid above market, we would have already at least matched Gunderson.

What's the V20? If you aren't comfortable saying it publicly can you PM me? I think I know the firm and as a lateral this is particularly important

[Anonymous User]

K&E associate here and would prefer not to be outed. Thank you in advance, mods.

We pay below market, and it's incredibly frustrating to me for there to be a common perception in the community that we pay above market. I think the issue is that most people come from a legal background and do not have an understanding on what "market" means. Market is the average the market is paying for certain services ("market"). Market is not the the base that the majority of firms use when making compensation decisions (the "base").

Almost all firms pay above the base for high billers. When I am billing 2,500 hours at K&E and get an extra $7,500 bonus, this is below market given that I have one friend at a V20 getting $7,500 for 2,400 hours and another friend getting $5,000 for 2,300 hours. K&E most definitely pays above base for high billers, but we pay below market.

Oh, and by the way, if we paid above market, we would have already at least matched Gunderson.

Other, less pessimistic K&E associate here.

Okay, but market is a term that everyone understands around here to mean paying Cravath scale without unreasonable hours demands, so the semantics lesson isn’t super helpful.

You are correct obviously in your analysis that base salaries vary in generosity depending on hours worked, but then why complain about us? K&E is one of a few firms I know that has absolutely no hours requirement, pays above market even to those who bill below the hours that would be bonus cutoffs at other firms, actually has a vaguely meaningful bonus increase for mega-billers, etc.

You and I agree, I assume, that it is not worth it to bill 3000 hours to get an extra X amount of dollars. BUT if you’re put in that situation, it’s a hell of a lot better to be at a firm that has a history of paying a generous multiplier. You may know of other firms that do that, but other than Wachtell and some boutiques, I don’t know of a firm with a more generous floor and a higher ceiling than we do.

Fundamentally, I do not bill more hours than my class year at other V20s, and yet for the last several years I have earned more than them. How is that below market? (Other than the current Gunderson embarrassment).

[Anonymous User]

Yes, there's no hours requirement at K&E. Yet from the others I speak to, I have gathered the lowest associates bill in my group is around 2200, average is around 2500 and high is around 2800. Must be very nice for the partners to be able to say "there is no hours requirement here" while average associate is billing around 2500. Gee, wonder how that happens.