Why do a lot of biglaw lawyers say they're not "living the life" financially-wise? Forum

[whysoseriousbiglaw]

Yeah, I'm looking to make the change now. It should have been telling when my favorite classes I took in law school were accounting and finance.....

To what? I hate biglaw and law in general like most lawyers and want out too. The JD has become a stain, though, so making a move is more difficult than in the past. Also, I agree with you about accounting, non-banking finance, and tech. The vast majority of my friends in those fields enjoy their jobs. The only friend group that is almost universally miserable is the lawyers.

To the dude with the grandpa flying up mountains into his 80s, did he spend his 20s through 60s desk-ridden and sedentary 12-16 hours per day? Honest question.

I have a lot of ideas, but not narrowed it down yet. I've thought about engineering (might be too old to start though), CPA, data science, nursing, high school teacher, actuary (exams are hard as hell though and there are a lot of them, so unlikely), real estate agent, etc. Fwiw, some CPAs have warned me against switching if I hate the law, but it seems like jobs are abundant for them in many more areas, and they can get an inhouse job working 9 to 5 pretty easily. My lazy ass friend from childhood is now a CPA in house - he works normal hours, there are lots of job opps, and he says that he "doesn't hate it or love it"....which is already a huge change from lawyers hating their jobs. It's also more numbers and fewer words (which I much prefer). All of my lawyer friends keep telling me to become a teacher for the "summers off" and for some reason are obsessed with the idea of teaching (one said it was the best time of his life when he taught); if they weren't so money obsessed they'd probably become teachers.

It's hard as hell to switch with a JD unless you do stuff like legal recruiter or work at a firm doing non legal work, but I'm willing to go back to school for a couple years (it will show dedication and also i probably need to take certain classes to switch anyway) if it's cheap/affordable and I end up doing a job that I can tolerate and don't hate on a daily basis. I also want a job that involves more numbers rather than words. If I taught, I'd probably teach math.

What have you considered switching to?

[Anonymous User]

Incoming associate at firm paying 180k in Texas. I still can't fathom how much money that is. I'm in my mid-late 20s and none of my friends outside law are making anything close. I was also raised by parents who made barely a third of that. Maybe I'm in the minority, and maybe it's because I have zero debt, but I definitely think that I will be "living the life financially-wise," even if I may not love the job. There are few other careers for people in their 20s with comparable pay.

[whysoseriousbiglaw]

Incoming associate at firm paying 180k in Texas. I still can't fathom how much money that is. I'm in my mid-late 20s and none of my friends outside law are making anything close. I was also raised by parents who made barely a third of that. Maybe I'm in the minority, and maybe it's because I have zero debt, but I definitely think that I will be "living the life financially-wise," even if I may not love the job. There are few other careers for people in their 20s with comparable pay.

Ok...thanks for sharing, incoming associate who hasn't even started working yet.... A lot of people who have worked other jobs before law school have mentioned that they never felt underpaid as much as when they were in biglaw. Other jobs may pay less, but they also expect less.

[nealric]

Yeah, I'm looking to make the change now. It should have been telling when my favorite classes I took in law school were accounting and finance.....

To what? I hate biglaw and law in general like most lawyers and want out too. The JD has become a stain, though, so making a move is more difficult than in the past. Also, I agree with you about accounting, non-banking finance, and tech. The vast majority of my friends in those fields enjoy their jobs. The only friend group that is almost universally miserable is the lawyers.

To the dude with the grandpa flying up mountains into his 80s, did he spend his 20s through 60s desk-ridden and sedentary 12-16 hours per day? Honest question.

I have a lot of ideas, but not narrowed it down yet. I've thought about engineering (might be too old to start though), CPA, data science, nursing, high school teacher, actuary (exams are hard as hell though and there are a lot of them, so unlikely), real estate agent, etc. Fwiw, some CPAs have warned me against switching if I hate the law, but it seems like jobs are abundant for them in many more areas, and they can get an inhouse job working 9 to 5 pretty easily. My lazy ass friend from childhood is now a CPA in house - he works normal hours, there are lots of job opps, and he says that he "doesn't hate it or love it"....which is already a huge change from lawyers hating their jobs. It's also more numbers and fewer words (which I much prefer). All of my lawyer friends keep telling me to become a teacher for the "summers off" and for some reason are obsessed with the idea of teaching (one said it was the best time of his life when he taught); if they weren't so money obsessed they'd probably become teachers.

It's hard as hell to switch with a JD unless you do stuff like legal recruiter or work at a firm doing non legal work, but I'm willing to go back to school for a couple years (it will show dedication and also i probably need to take certain classes to switch anyway) if it's cheap/affordable and I end up doing a job that I can tolerate and don't hate on a daily basis. I also want a job that involves more numbers rather than words. If I taught, I'd probably teach math.

What have you considered switching to?

If you just want a 9-5 in-house and don't care where, I guarantee you can get one somewhere if you are at least a 3rd year biglaw associate. It will be a lot easier than trying to go back to school to do accounting. If you are in corporate, go in-house corporate for a while and work your way in to the business development department (I know people who have done this)- lot more numbers in BD.

[whysoseriousbiglaw]

Yeah, I'm looking to make the change now. It should have been telling when my favorite classes I took in law school were accounting and finance.....

To what? I hate biglaw and law in general like most lawyers and want out too. The JD has become a stain, though, so making a move is more difficult than in the past. Also, I agree with you about accounting, non-banking finance, and tech. The vast majority of my friends in those fields enjoy their jobs. The only friend group that is almost universally miserable is the lawyers.

To the dude with the grandpa flying up mountains into his 80s, did he spend his 20s through 60s desk-ridden and sedentary 12-16 hours per day? Honest question.

I have a lot of ideas, but not narrowed it down yet. I've thought about engineering (might be too old to start though), CPA, data science, nursing, high school teacher, actuary (exams are hard as hell though and there are a lot of them, so unlikely), real estate agent, etc. Fwiw, some CPAs have warned me against switching if I hate the law, but it seems like jobs are abundant for them in many more areas, and they can get an inhouse job working 9 to 5 pretty easily. My lazy ass friend from childhood is now a CPA in house - he works normal hours, there are lots of job opps, and he says that he "doesn't hate it or love it"....which is already a huge change from lawyers hating their jobs. It's also more numbers and fewer words (which I much prefer). All of my lawyer friends keep telling me to become a teacher for the "summers off" and for some reason are obsessed with the idea of teaching (one said it was the best time of his life when he taught); if they weren't so money obsessed they'd probably become teachers.

It's hard as hell to switch with a JD unless you do stuff like legal recruiter or work at a firm doing non legal work, but I'm willing to go back to school for a couple years (it will show dedication and also i probably need to take certain classes to switch anyway) if it's cheap/affordable and I end up doing a job that I can tolerate and don't hate on a daily basis. I also want a job that involves more numbers rather than words. If I taught, I'd probably teach math.

What have you considered switching to?

If you just want a 9-5 in-house and don't care where, I guarantee you can get one somewhere if you are at least a 3rd year biglaw associate. It will be a lot easier than trying to go back to school to do accounting. If you are in corporate, go in-house corporate for a while and work your way in to the business development department (I know people who have done this)- lot more numbers in BD.

I don't like doing legal work though. I'd rather do heavy quant work than legal work, or even just making pivot tables in Excel is preferable to me than legal work.

I'd rather not stick it out for another few years doing legal work to try to switch...I could probably get a CPA license within a couple years.

[nealric]

Yeah, I'm looking to make the change now. It should have been telling when my favorite classes I took in law school were accounting and finance.....

To what? I hate biglaw and law in general like most lawyers and want out too. The JD has become a stain, though, so making a move is more difficult than in the past. Also, I agree with you about accounting, non-banking finance, and tech. The vast majority of my friends in those fields enjoy their jobs. The only friend group that is almost universally miserable is the lawyers.

To the dude with the grandpa flying up mountains into his 80s, did he spend his 20s through 60s desk-ridden and sedentary 12-16 hours per day? Honest question.

I have a lot of ideas, but not narrowed it down yet. I've thought about engineering (might be too old to start though), CPA, data science, nursing, high school teacher, actuary (exams are hard as hell though and there are a lot of them, so unlikely), real estate agent, etc. Fwiw, some CPAs have warned me against switching if I hate the law, but it seems like jobs are abundant for them in many more areas, and they can get an inhouse job working 9 to 5 pretty easily. My lazy ass friend from childhood is now a CPA in house - he works normal hours, there are lots of job opps, and he says that he "doesn't hate it or love it"....which is already a huge change from lawyers hating their jobs. It's also more numbers and fewer words (which I much prefer). All of my lawyer friends keep telling me to become a teacher for the "summers off" and for some reason are obsessed with the idea of teaching (one said it was the best time of his life when he taught); if they weren't so money obsessed they'd probably become teachers.

It's hard as hell to switch with a JD unless you do stuff like legal recruiter or work at a firm doing non legal work, but I'm willing to go back to school for a couple years (it will show dedication and also i probably need to take certain classes to switch anyway) if it's cheap/affordable and I end up doing a job that I can tolerate and don't hate on a daily basis. I also want a job that involves more numbers rather than words. If I taught, I'd probably teach math.

What have you considered switching to?

If you just want a 9-5 in-house and don't care where, I guarantee you can get one somewhere if you are at least a 3rd year biglaw associate. It will be a lot easier than trying to go back to school to do accounting. If you are in corporate, go in-house corporate for a while and work your way in to the business development department (I know people who have done this)- lot more numbers in BD.

I don't like doing legal work though.

Which is why I advised transitioning into business development- which is not legal work. People who succeed in BD have good quantitative skills. Much easier to do this if you are already in-house at a megacorp. Good companies allow, and even encourage, switching between roles.

[whysoseriousbiglaw]

Yeah, I'm looking to make the change now. It should have been telling when my favorite classes I took in law school were accounting and finance.....

To what? I hate biglaw and law in general like most lawyers and want out too. The JD has become a stain, though, so making a move is more difficult than in the past. Also, I agree with you about accounting, non-banking finance, and tech. The vast majority of my friends in those fields enjoy their jobs. The only friend group that is almost universally miserable is the lawyers.

To the dude with the grandpa flying up mountains into his 80s, did he spend his 20s through 60s desk-ridden and sedentary 12-16 hours per day? Honest question.

I have a lot of ideas, but not narrowed it down yet. I've thought about engineering (might be too old to start though), CPA, data science, nursing, high school teacher, actuary (exams are hard as hell though and there are a lot of them, so unlikely), real estate agent, etc. Fwiw, some CPAs have warned me against switching if I hate the law, but it seems like jobs are abundant for them in many more areas, and they can get an inhouse job working 9 to 5 pretty easily. My lazy ass friend from childhood is now a CPA in house - he works normal hours, there are lots of job opps, and he says that he "doesn't hate it or love it"....which is already a huge change from lawyers hating their jobs. It's also more numbers and fewer words (which I much prefer). All of my lawyer friends keep telling me to become a teacher for the "summers off" and for some reason are obsessed with the idea of teaching (one said it was the best time of his life when he taught); if they weren't so money obsessed they'd probably become teachers.

It's hard as hell to switch with a JD unless you do stuff like legal recruiter or work at a firm doing non legal work, but I'm willing to go back to school for a couple years (it will show dedication and also i probably need to take certain classes to switch anyway) if it's cheap/affordable and I end up doing a job that I can tolerate and don't hate on a daily basis. I also want a job that involves more numbers rather than words. If I taught, I'd probably teach math.

What have you considered switching to?

If you just want a 9-5 in-house and don't care where, I guarantee you can get one somewhere if you are at least a 3rd year biglaw associate. It will be a lot easier than trying to go back to school to do accounting. If you are in corporate, go in-house corporate for a while and work your way in to the business development department (I know people who have done this)- lot more numbers in BD.

I don't like doing legal work though.

Which is why I advised transitioning into business development- which is not legal work. People who succeed in BD have good quantitative skills. Much easier to do this if you are already in-house at a megacorp. Good companies allow, and even encourage, switching between roles.

I'm married, so I can't just move anywhere, which complicates things. It's probably much harder where I live now, to land an inhouse job as a relatively junior associate.

Can't I just apply to BD roles now? Like start ups, etc.?

[whysoseriousbiglaw]

I'm a guy, and I suppose afflicted with "toxic masculinity," so I wouldn't actually go for it, but nursing is a good career. I know several nurses and they have it fucking made. Make over a 100K and work like 4 10 hours shifts a week. And its impossible to take the work home with you. You clock out and you done until the next shift.

I have heard this. If you do CRNA you make like 250k a year working normal hours in flyover. CRNAs are basically replacing anesthesiologists, and it only takes, I believe, 2 years of post-bachelor schooling plus training on the job. It's probably much better to be a nurse than doctor these days.

[nealric]

Yeah, I'm looking to make the change now. It should have been telling when my favorite classes I took in law school were accounting and finance.....

To what? I hate biglaw and law in general like most lawyers and want out too. The JD has become a stain, though, so making a move is more difficult than in the past. Also, I agree with you about accounting, non-banking finance, and tech. The vast majority of my friends in those fields enjoy their jobs. The only friend group that is almost universally miserable is the lawyers.

To the dude with the grandpa flying up mountains into his 80s, did he spend his 20s through 60s desk-ridden and sedentary 12-16 hours per day? Honest question.

I have a lot of ideas, but not narrowed it down yet. I've thought about engineering (might be too old to start though), CPA, data science, nursing, high school teacher, actuary (exams are hard as hell though and there are a lot of them, so unlikely), real estate agent, etc. Fwiw, some CPAs have warned me against switching if I hate the law, but it seems like jobs are abundant for them in many more areas, and they can get an inhouse job working 9 to 5 pretty easily. My lazy ass friend from childhood is now a CPA in house - he works normal hours, there are lots of job opps, and he says that he "doesn't hate it or love it"....which is already a huge change from lawyers hating their jobs. It's also more numbers and fewer words (which I much prefer). All of my lawyer friends keep telling me to become a teacher for the "summers off" and for some reason are obsessed with the idea of teaching (one said it was the best time of his life when he taught); if they weren't so money obsessed they'd probably become teachers.

It's hard as hell to switch with a JD unless you do stuff like legal recruiter or work at a firm doing non legal work, but I'm willing to go back to school for a couple years (it will show dedication and also i probably need to take certain classes to switch anyway) if it's cheap/affordable and I end up doing a job that I can tolerate and don't hate on a daily basis. I also want a job that involves more numbers rather than words. If I taught, I'd probably teach math.

What have you considered switching to?

If you just want a 9-5 in-house and don't care where, I guarantee you can get one somewhere if you are at least a 3rd year biglaw associate. It will be a lot easier than trying to go back to school to do accounting. If you are in corporate, go in-house corporate for a while and work your way in to the business development department (I know people who have done this)- lot more numbers in BD.

I don't like doing legal work though.

Which is why I advised transitioning into business development- which is not legal work. People who succeed in BD have good quantitative skills. Much easier to do this if you are already in-house at a megacorp. Good companies allow, and even encourage, switching between roles.

I'm married, so I can't just move anywhere, which complicates things. It's probably much harder where I live now, to land an inhouse job as a relatively junior associate.

Can't I just apply to BD roles now? Like start ups, etc.?

You can. You are probably an unorthodox candidate, but it's not out of the question. Getting an in-house job requires making connections. Especially as an unorthodox candidate, you have to get past HR and to the actual decision makers. Do as many informational interviews and talk to as many people as you can.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Can you clarify why life is over at 50?

Old, body failing, mental decline, wrinkly, ugly, nobody wants to talk to you except other olds. You probably live for your family at that point if you have kids, which sounds like shit to me. I'd rather live for myself.

I don't get the point of sacrificing your youth so you can have more money to enjoy when you're old, ugly and practically immobile.

I know I'm late to the party, but l-o-fucking-l, you self-absorbed juvenile.

[star fox]

Most of my interests (travel, going to sporting events, watching tv) would not be limited by having more wrinkly skin.

[Desert Fox]

Most of my interests (travel, going to sporting events, watching tv) would not be limited by having more wrinkly skin.

my new view is that i should cop government so i can afford to do that shit and still work 10 hours a week evne if i make 120k for life.

[BernieTrump]

.

[nealric]

I just left my office at 11:30. I have no deals closing. This is just an average Monday. I called a partner at Cravath at about 10:45. He was at his desk. On my way out I passed two partners at their desk, both in their late 50s or 60s. As far as I can tell, they don't have anything closing either. Law, and BIGLAW in particular, are the only fields where you really don't slow down like you do in everything else. The era of becoming a relationship partner and not putting in the same hours are long over for almost all of the equity partnership.

Sounds like you are in a v10 (or so) firm in NYC, which is a uniquely terrible place within Biglaw. I can think of only a small handful of partners at my old firm (v50-100) that were regularly in the office past 10 or so.

My dad is a biglaw partner (v50-100). He works very hard, but nothing like the Cravath partner you describe. No, you can't just become the relationship partner and kick your heels up with a 3-martini lunch in between, but that doesn't mean it's impossible to do a relatively sane 55 hour work week.

[unlicensedpotato]

I just left my office at 11:30. I have no deals closing. This is just an average Monday. I called a partner at Cravath at about 10:45. He was at his desk. On my way out I passed two partners at their desk, both in their late 50s or 60s. As far as I can tell, they don't have anything closing either. Law, and BIGLAW in particular, are the only fields where you really don't slow down like you do in everything else. The era of becoming a relationship partner and not putting in the same hours are long over for almost all of the equity partnership.

One point on this -- of course there's golden handcuffs, lifestyle inflation, and it's easier to continue on your current path. But V10 NY partners shouldn't "need" the money at 55. So it seems like they could leave if they wanted.

[Anonymous User]

Yeah, I'm looking to make the change now. It should have been telling when my favorite classes I took in law school were accounting and finance.....

To what? I hate biglaw and law in general like most lawyers and want out too. The JD has become a stain, though, so making a move is more difficult than in the past. Also, I agree with you about accounting, non-banking finance, and tech. The vast majority of my friends in those fields enjoy their jobs. The only friend group that is almost universally miserable is the lawyers.

To the dude with the grandpa flying up mountains into his 80s, did he spend his 20s through 60s desk-ridden and sedentary 12-16 hours per day? Honest question.

I have a lot of ideas, but not narrowed it down yet. I've thought about engineering (might be too old to start though), CPA, data science, nursing, high school teacher, actuary (exams are hard as hell though and there are a lot of them, so unlikely), real estate agent, etc. Fwiw, some CPAs have warned me against switching if I hate the law, but it seems like jobs are abundant for them in many more areas, and they can get an inhouse job working 9 to 5 pretty easily. My lazy ass friend from childhood is now a CPA in house - he works normal hours, there are lots of job opps, and he says that he "doesn't hate it or love it"....which is already a huge change from lawyers hating their jobs. It's also more numbers and fewer words (which I much prefer). All of my lawyer friends keep telling me to become a teacher for the "summers off" and for some reason are obsessed with the idea of teaching (one said it was the best time of his life when he taught); if they weren't so money obsessed they'd probably become teachers.

It's hard as hell to switch with a JD unless you do stuff like legal recruiter or work at a firm doing non legal work, but I'm willing to go back to school for a couple years (it will show dedication and also i probably need to take certain classes to switch anyway) if it's cheap/affordable and I end up doing a job that I can tolerate and don't hate on a daily basis. I also want a job that involves more numbers rather than words. If I taught, I'd probably teach math.

What have you considered switching to?

I actually did auditor to inhouse corporate finance before law school. It was a fine job. Went to law school interested in lit. Thought if it didn't work out it could be an MBA substitute. LOL. Obviously I'd know better now, but that info wasn't out there as widely then as now.

I knew I didn't want corporate. I saw what the GC did and it's mindless risk averse paper pushing. Sure, he may sit in on e-board meetings, but lol at the legal side having any real biz input. Anyway, I landed in corporate because you don't always get to pick your career path in biglaw. It's fucking miserable. It's also a lot harder to "just do BD" than this thread says.

I'm early 30s and most of my friends from those days are inhouse finance manager or something equiv. It's low 6 figures, great benefits, and a rock solid 9-5 no weekends with rare deviation, some travel. It's also a lot more interesting than corporate law, inhouse or otherwise, for just about every normal person out there.

Also, and relevant to the posts about rich biglaw partners still working like they do, I found the biz side to have much better people. More normal, more balanced, easier to talk to. So many fucking weirdos in law.

Your list of job considerations sounds like mine. I'm early 30s and almost back to 0, and that actually feels like a good thing (fuck this profession). I've also programmed in the past for fun, and have thought about going back for that. There are a lot of lawyers that feel the same way, but most are risk averse pussies and won't take the chance on a career change. Here's to hoping it works out for us.

[Anonymous User]

.

[unlicensedpotato]

Can someone give an example of what is supposedly interesting about the business side?

McDonalds CEO gets paid like $5 million a year and his job seems to be to decide whether or not to serve all day breakfast. And they still managed to botch that for decades.

[EncyclopediaOrange]

Can someone give an example of what is supposedly interesting about the business side?

McDonalds CEO gets paid like $5 million a year and his job seems to be to decide whether or not to serve all day breakfast. And they still managed to botch that for decades.

I'm too lazy to look up the details but the McDonalds CEO's total compensation is WAY higher than $5mil. Some CEOs take $1/year salaries and make more per year than I ever will.

[Anonymous User]

Kind've an oddball question, but as a job candidate with multiple offers in a secondary market what would you do...all firms do legit work.

Firm 1 Big Law

110k - 1900 billable req

Firm 2 Boutique (Lot of biglaw refugees)

70k - 1500 billable req.

No debt here T25 - I'm leaning towards two tbh after what I've heard from everyone in biglaw.

[unlicensedpotato]

Can someone give an example of what is supposedly interesting about the business side?

McDonalds CEO gets paid like $5 million a year and his job seems to be to decide whether or not to serve all day breakfast. And they still managed to botch that for decades.

I'm too lazy to look up the details but the McDonalds CEO's total compensation is WAY higher than $5mil. Some CEOs take $1/year salaries and make more per year than I ever will.

lol base salary of Easterbrook was raised from 1.1 to 1.3 million earlier this year. Thompson's total comp in 2015 was $7.29M.

CEOs do not make *that* much, with notable exceptions (it's typically tech CEOs with the $1 salary). You're talking about like hedge fund managers etc. Dimon makes like $20M all in and gets pilloried. Ken Griffin makes $1.3 billion.

[Anonymous User]

I'm a guy, and I suppose afflicted with "toxic masculinity," so I wouldn't actually go for it, but nursing is a good career. I know several nurses and they have it fucking made. Make over a 100K and work like 4 10 hours shifts a week. And its impossible to take the work home with you. You clock out and you done until the next shift.

I have heard this. If you do CRNA you make like 250k a year working normal hours in flyover. CRNAs are basically replacing anesthesiologists, and it only takes, I believe, 2 years of post-bachelor schooling plus training on the job. It's probably much better to be a nurse than doctor these days.

Obviously just anecdotal evidence, but I lived with two CRNA's for a few years after college and they HATED their jobs. They worked incredibly long hours, were constantly being told what to do by people less qualified (see: young med students and residents, and often had pretty traumatic days at work that made it difficult to "leave it at the office."

[EncyclopediaOrange]

Can someone give an example of what is supposedly interesting about the business side?

McDonalds CEO gets paid like $5 million a year and his job seems to be to decide whether or not to serve all day breakfast. And they still managed to botch that for decades.

I'm too lazy to look up the details but the McDonalds CEO's total compensation is WAY higher than $5mil. Some CEOs take $1/year salaries and make more per year than I ever will.

lol base salary of Easterbrook was raised from 1.1 to 1.3 million earlier this year. Thompson's total comp in 2015 was $7.29M.

CEOs do not make *that* much, with notable exceptions (it's typically tech CEOs with the $1 salary). You're talking about like hedge fund managers etc. Dimon makes like $20M all in and gets pilloried. Ken Griffin makes $1.3 billion.

Fair

[A. Nony Mouse]

Yeah, I've seen a lot of people say things like "just do nursing bro" but that is not an easy job and a lot of people who are leaning toward law school probably don't have the qualities necessary to be a good nurse. (Like, if you do, it's probably a great option, but a lot of people don't.)

[star fox]

A lot of lawyers appear wildly confident in their abilities.