WUSTL EIW + Off Campus Programs (2016) Forum

[Anonymous User]

Ok, Latham represented the Church of Scientology and also donated $3.2 to 9th Cir Justice Jay Bybee... who signed the Torture Papers... ugh this firm.

Wow I really feel for you, getting a screener for a V10 firm...that really sucks. You're definitely just venting too, not trying to humble-brag about it all.

[PeanutsNJam]

Ok, Latham represented the Church of Scientology and also donated $3.2 to 9th Cir Justice Jay Bybee... who signed the Torture Papers... ugh this firm.

Wow I really feel for you, getting a screener for a V10 firm...that really sucks. You're definitely just venting too, not trying to humble-brag about it all.

I don't have a screener with Latham. I was researching them for a cover letter. You sound needlessly bitter.

[Anonymous User]

Ok, Latham represented the Church of Scientology and also donated $3.2 to 9th Cir Justice Jay Bybee... who signed the Torture Papers... ugh this firm.

Wow I really feel for you, getting a screener for a V10 firm...that really sucks. You're definitely just venting too, not trying to humble-brag about it all.

I don't have a screener with Latham. I was researching them for a cover letter. You sound needlessly bitter.

Yeah you probably shouldn't send them a cover letter, you're too good for them.

[Anonymous User]

Shearman & Sterling for SEMW is out! Wahoo!!

alternate, bummer...so many alternates already...

[KunAgnis]

If you truly knew PnJ irl, you'd know he doesn't humber brag or brag. There's no need to make this thread hostile, he was probably not happy with having to apply to a firm that he doesn't ethically agree with.

[MtheG]

I know I am not a mod, but let's keep this thread high class. This thread exists as a public service and is useless if we don't use it right.

[Anonymous User]

I know I am not a mod, but let's keep this thread high class. This thread exists as a public service and is useless if we don't use it right.

Thanks for doing this, MtheG, this is a true service. I wish the CCD ran something like this to encourage or answer questions given the WashU presence on TLS.

[cm_burns]

If you truly knew PnJ irl, you'd know he doesn't humber brag or brag. There's no need to make this thread hostile, he was probably not happy with having to apply to a firm that he doesn't ethically agree with.

I don't know him in real life, but he doesn't have to apply anywhere. It seems to me like he wants to voice his moral superiority as well as his success at the same time. It makes him come off as a culturally privileged asshole. I don't know him in real life, but that's how it comes off.

[Anonymous User]

I know I am not a mod, but let's keep this thread high class. This thread exists as a public service and is useless if we don't use it right.

Thanks for doing this, MtheG, this is a true service. I wish the CCD ran something like this to encourage or answer questions given the WashU presence on TLS.

Anon associate from above. Not a single person at CSO is there anymore from when I was there. What happened?

[PeanutsNJam]

I wish the CCD would keep track of GPA/screener/CB/offers, at least through OCI, like some other schools do. It such a valuable resource. We could try to do some anon excel sheet here but that's a lot of effort for an unpaid law student.

[RareExports]

I wish the CCD would keep track of GPA/screener/CB/offers, at least through OCI, like some other schools do. It such a valuable resource. We could try to do some anon excel sheet here but that's a lot of effort for an unpaid law student.

I would be happy to do something like this if there is interest.

It would require truthful reporting and accurate sampling though. There would be problems for future classes if the only people who reported were those who got offers. The TLS community itself is skewed enough, it would be even worse if there is reporting bias.

Still, if there is interest, I am happy to at least attempt this.

[MtheG]

The CCD does keep stats but they keep them pretty close to the chest. I also know for a fact that Law Review keeps track of employment outcomes for their members. There are stats available but they just require some digging. It is critically important to remember that CCD is designed at maintaining rather than expanding. They know that WUSTL isn't a 40% biglaw school so they are content with maintaining relationships with the firms that come to OCI and they really try to get the top 25% jobs in the major markets. If you aren't a star then you have to hustle. The CCD people are nice but they aren't miracle workers and they are part of a fairly large and slow moving bureaucracy.

[Anonymous User]

I wish the CCD would keep track of GPA/screener/CB/offers, at least through OCI, like some other schools do. It such a valuable resource. We could try to do some anon excel sheet here but that's a lot of effort for an unpaid law student.

I would be happy to do something like this if there is interest.

It would require truthful reporting and accurate sampling though. There would be problems for future classes if the only people who reported were those who got offers. The TLS community itself is skewed enough, it would be even worse if there is reporting bias.

Still, if there is interest, I am happy to at least attempt this.

The law school has this data and when I was there, intended to release this data. I think they quickly realized that the biglaw numbers were not pretty and that it would only be discouraging.

[Anonymous User]

I wish the CCD would keep track of GPA/screener/CB/offers, at least through OCI, like some other schools do. It such a valuable resource. We could try to do some anon excel sheet here but that's a lot of effort for an unpaid law student.

I would be happy to do something like this if there is interest.

It would require truthful reporting and accurate sampling though. There would be problems for future classes if the only people who reported were those who got offers. The TLS community itself is skewed enough, it would be even worse if there is reporting bias.

Still, if there is interest, I am happy to at least attempt this.

We have a new dean for CCD now, so she might be amenable to such ideas.

[PeanutsNJam]

I wish the CCD would keep track of GPA/screener/CB/offers, at least through OCI, like some other schools do. It such a valuable resource. We could try to do some anon excel sheet here but that's a lot of effort for an unpaid law student.

I would be happy to do something like this if there is interest.

It would require truthful reporting and accurate sampling though. There would be problems for future classes if the only people who reported were those who got offers. The TLS community itself is skewed enough, it would be even worse if there is reporting bias.

Still, if there is interest, I am happy to at least attempt this.

The law school has this data and when I was there, intended to release this data. I think they quickly realized that the biglaw numbers were not pretty and that it would only be discouraging.

I don't know that the screener numbers are that bad. Maybe the offer numbers are bad, but there's a lot more than grades between the screener and offer. Maybe just a GPA screener/CB thing would be great, and you could leave out offers since general wisdom is after the CB, grades don't matter.

[Jay2716]

That info is only valuable for lottery schools. For an all-preselect school it's worthless. You need to apply everywhere and keep applying until you have a job. There really isn't any way you could get a statistically valid sample anyway.

So much of the job hunt at WashU goes beyond grades. Lots of people who get jobs get them through networking and ties, so gpa isn't as useful a predictor as it is at better schools. Gpa is hugely important, but great gpas aren't enough and bad gpas aren't a death sentence. I know top 10% people who struck out on EIW and off-campus programs but landed good jobs through networks they cultivated during 1L. I also know median kids who did the same, and kids with good gpas that struck out altogether.

[MtheG]

That info is only valuable for lottery schools. For an all-preselect school it's worthless. You need to apply everywhere and keep applying until you have a job. There really isn't any way you could get a statistically valid sample anyway.

So much of the job hunt at WashU goes beyond grades. Lots of people who get jobs get them through networking and ties, so gpa isn't as useful a predictor as it is at better schools. Gpa is hugely important, but great gpas aren't enough and bad gpas aren't a death sentence. I know top 10% people who struck out on EIW and off-campus programs but landed good jobs through networks they cultivated during 1L. I also know median kids who did the same, and kids with good gpas that struck out altogether.

I totally agree with all of this. The only real way to increase our big market chances is to have our own interview programs in New York and Chicago but I would assume that the V100 firms in those cities don't have the inclination to exclusively interview WUSTL kids. The New York and Chicago firms are massive but they are resource conscious and they know that that the T-14 is where they need to invest the lion's share of their resources.

[PeanutsNJam]

At the very least, CCD could tell people to "apply everywhere" and give some meaningful feedback on what gets you screeners/CBs and what does not from some kind of data.

I know lots of people who are like DENVER and MIAMI only and don't bid on anything outside of that (and still want biglaw). Doesn't matter what your grades are, not even #1 can do that.

[RareExports]

This discussion convinced me of the need for a spreadsheet. If grades are not a perfect predictor, that is useful information to have. And if grades are a good predictor, then the spreadsheet is even more useful. At the very least, if the sample is large and accurate enough, this information should reveal which markets are most ties sensitive, most receptive to Wash U students, and what kinds of grades are sufficient for which firms.

If anyone wants to PM me their stats and info (GPA, class rank/percentile, journal, patent bar eligibility, URM status, geographic ties, # screeners, callbacks, offers) I'll add them anonymously. When interview season picks up in a couple of weeks I will make the spreadsheet public and editable.

[Jay2716]

Why is it useful when the only thing it could do is lull people into a false sense of complacency or discourage people from applying? What strategic value would it add to your job hunt? If you want biglaw, you should apply to every firm you would work at that comes to EIW, OCI, and every off campus program. You should mass mail every biglaw firm in New York, every big law firm in any market you have ties to, and any other market you would conceivably take a job in. You should also use all of the networking connections in St. Louis and your home market you've developed. Knowing past year's gpa performance wouldn't impact that strategy at all, it could only hurt it.

[RareExports]

Why is it useful when the only thing it could do is lull people into a false sense of complacency or discourage people from applying? What strategic value would it add to your job hunt? If you want biglaw, you should apply to every firm you would work at that comes to EIW, OCI, and every off campus program. You should mass mail every biglaw firm in New York, every big law firm in any market you have ties to, and any other market you would conceivably take a job in. You should also use all of the networking connections in St. Louis and your home market you've developed. Knowing past year's gpa performance wouldn't impact that strategy at all, it could only hurt it.

No one is saying that it's wise to apply to less than every firm. But public information about this is useful for prioritizing firms and markets. I mass mailed the entire NLJ 350 and I would have liked to have this kind of information.

[MtheG]

Also, as a confidence booster for some, we are just entering into the key mass mail period, so if you are ahead then great and if you are just starting then you don't have to panic.

[Anonymous User]

Why is it useful when the only thing it could do is lull people into a false sense of complacency or discourage people from applying? What strategic value would it add to your job hunt? If you want biglaw, you should apply to every firm you would work at that comes to EIW, OCI, and every off campus program. You should mass mail every biglaw firm in New York, every big law firm in any market you have ties to, and any other market you would conceivably take a job in. You should also use all of the networking connections in St. Louis and your home market you've developed. Knowing past year's gpa performance wouldn't impact that strategy at all, it could only hurt it.

No one is saying that it's wise to apply to less than every firm. But public information about this is useful for prioritizing firms and markets. I mass mailed the entire NLJ 350 and I would have liked to have this kind of information.

This. Prioritizing firms and markets is really important. Asking everybody to mass mail everywhere does not help anybody even if you have unlimited time and energy. I guess the data helps people who MM with a strategy or goal in mind, instead of doing it blindly.

[Sprout]

This discussion convinced me of the need for a spreadsheet. If grades are not a perfect predictor, that is useful information to have. And if grades are a good predictor, then the spreadsheet is even more useful. At the very least, if the sample is large and accurate enough, this information should reveal which markets are most ties sensitive, most receptive to Wash U students, and what kinds of grades are sufficient for which firms.

If anyone wants to PM me their stats and info (GPA, class rank/percentile, journal, patent bar eligibility, URM status, geographic ties, # screeners, callbacks, offers) I'll add them anonymously. When interview season picks up in a couple of weeks I will make the spreadsheet public and editable.

Nice of you to want to do this, and by all means do what you want, but you should prob be spending your time mass mailing http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... p?t=215200

ETA: I sent out hundreds last summer and I should have sent more. Mass mail mass mail mass mail, until you get an offer.

[Jay2716]

Why is it useful when the only thing it could do is lull people into a false sense of complacency or discourage people from applying? What strategic value would it add to your job hunt? If you want biglaw, you should apply to every firm you would work at that comes to EIW, OCI, and every off campus program. You should mass mail every biglaw firm in New York, every big law firm in any market you have ties to, and any other market you would conceivably take a job in. You should also use all of the networking connections in St. Louis and your home market you've developed. Knowing past year's gpa performance wouldn't impact that strategy at all, it could only hurt it.

No one is saying that it's wise to apply to less than every firm. But public information about this is useful for prioritizing firms and markets. I mass mailed the entire NLJ 350 and I would have liked to have this kind of information.

This. Prioritizing firms and markets is really important. Asking everybody to mass mail everywhere does not help anybody even if you have unlimited time and energy. I guess the data helps people who MM with a strategy or goal in mind, instead of doing it blindly.

No one said you should literally mass mail everywhere. You prioritize markets by your ties, not by how some kid who grew up in Indiana did. Data that (1) is statistically invalid and (2) does not apply to you anyway does not help you strategize. You have a strategy; you mass mail New York and other markets to which you have ties. If you want to delude yourself into thinking your laziness is strategy, go ahead. For the 2Ls who actually want jobs, I suggest doing what generations of TLSers have found works.