HLS EIP 2016 Forum

[foxes]

do we need a reference sheet with us at eip? i almost forgot about it and need to get a move on asking old bosses if so!

eta: for references for eip purposes, would asking an old boss to serve as a reference be ok? or should i only ask ppl from my 1l job?

[TripTrip]

do we need a reference sheet with us at eip? i almost forgot about it and need to get a move on asking old bosses if so!

eta: for references for eip purposes, would asking an old boss to serve as a reference be ok? or should i only ask ppl from my 1l job?

You should have one in case they ask for it, but I never had anyone ask for mine. As for the "who": https://hls.harvard.edu/dept/ocs/jd-stu ... eferences/

[Anonymous User]

do we need a reference sheet with us at eip? i almost forgot about it and need to get a move on asking old bosses if so!

eta: for references for eip purposes, would asking an old boss to serve as a reference be ok? or should i only ask ppl from my 1l job?

You should have one in case they ask for it, but I never had anyone ask for mine. As for the "who": https://hls.harvard.edu/dept/ocs/jd-stu ... eferences/

Any advice on how to approach references if I was not particularly close with any of my 1L professors?

[4for44]

do we need a reference sheet with us at eip? i almost forgot about it and need to get a move on asking old bosses if so!

eta: for references for eip purposes, would asking an old boss to serve as a reference be ok? or should i only ask ppl from my 1l job?

You should have one in case they ask for it, but I never had anyone ask for mine. As for the "who": https://hls.harvard.edu/dept/ocs/jd-stu ... eferences/

Any advice on how to approach references if I was not particularly close with any of my 1L professors?

Obviously previous bosses are going to be your best bet. 1L summer boss should be an easy one to use.

If you want one professor in addition to bosses, your section leader is always a good start. They will probably be the prof. you have interacted with most if you didn't go out of your way for any others. And I imagine there is a bit of a sense of obligation for them to say yes to being a reference if they chose to be section leader.

Don't stress too much about it. I think 2 of my EIP callbacks contacted references.

[Anonymous User]

Would appreciate critique/feedback on my bidlist:
Transfer student with 4.0, #1 rank from my 1L school
Strong but not perfect interview skills
Targeting NYC and Philly litigation but am open to transactional

1. WilmerHale
2. Skadden, Arps, Slate, Meagher & Flom
3. Cravath, Swain & Moore
4. Willkie Farr & Gallagher LLP
5. Paul, Weiss, Rifkind, Wharton & Garrison
6. Weil Gotshal & Manges
7. Sullivan Cromwell
8. Shearman & Sterling
9. Milbank, Tweed, Hadley & McCloy LLP
10. Cleary, Gottlieb, Steen & Hamilton
11. Morgan, Lewis & Bockius (Philadelphia)
12. Davis Polk & Wardwell LLP
13. Latham & Watkins
14. Gibson Dunn
15. Simpson Thacher & Bartlett
16. White & Case
17. Debevoise & Plimpton
18. Ropes & Gray
19. Dechert LLP (Philadelphia)
20. Fried Frank Harris Shriver & Jacobson
21. Kirkland & Ellis
22. Cahill Gordon & Reindell
23. Pepper Hamilton LLP (Philadelphia)
24. cooley llp
25. Freshfields
26. sidley austin llp
27. ballard spahr llp (Philadelphia)
28. Kaye Scholer
29. Kramer, Levin, Naftalis & Frankel
30. Goodwin Procter
31. Drinker Biddle & Reath LLP
32. Hogan Lovells
33. Winston & Strawn LLP
34. paul hastings llp
35. O'Melveny & Myers

[johndoe111]

I think the general strategy should be to maximize interviews/offers unless you have killer grades/great interviewer. Then of course you can f it and bid on any firms you want. As others have mentioned, its really hard to have any strong opinions on any of the firms at this point. So yeah, do take a serious look at cb/offer, bid/interview ratios etc. Ppl at hls do strike out.

What would you say qualify as "killer grades" for this advice to apply?

[Anonymous User]

Hey guys, any advice on this bid list? 1H, the rest Ps. Bidding mostly NYC with a few nominal firms in LA because of family. Interested in transactional work.

1 Debevoise NYC
2 MoFo NYC
3 O'Melveny NYC
4 Sidley NYC
5 Ropes NYC
6 O'Melveny LA
7 Schulte NYC
8 Kaye NYC
9 Cleary NYC
10 Proskauer NYC
11 Winston & Strawn NYC
12 Covington NYC
13 White & Case NYC
14 Davis Polk NYC
15 Shearman NYC
16 Morgan Lewis NYC
17 Paul Hastings NYC
18 Kramer Levin NYC
19 DLA Piper NYC
20 Katten NYC
21 Weil NYC
22 Jones Day NYC
23 Orrick NYC
24 Akin NYC
25 Fried Frank NYC
26 Goodwin NYC
27 Dechert NYC
28 WilmerHale NYC
29 Clifford Chance NYC
30 Baker Botts NYC
31 Mintz Levin NYC
32 Skadden LA
33 Cooley LA
34 Sidley LA
35 Latham LA

Too conservative? Not conservative enough? I have no real idea what I'm doing so any advice would be appreciated

[Joscellin]

Would appreciate critique/feedback on my bidlist:
Transfer student with 4.0, #1 rank from my 1L school
Strong but not perfect interview skills
Targeting NYC and Philly litigation but am open to transactional

1. WilmerHale
2. Skadden, Arps, Slate, Meagher & Flom
3. Cravath, Swain & Moore
4. Willkie Farr & Gallagher LLP
5. Paul, Weiss, Rifkind, Wharton & Garrison
6. Weil Gotshal & Manges
7. Sullivan Cromwell
8. Shearman & Sterling
9. Milbank, Tweed, Hadley & McCloy LLP
10. Cleary, Gottlieb, Steen & Hamilton
11. Morgan, Lewis & Bockius (Philadelphia)
12. Davis Polk & Wardwell LLP
13. Latham & Watkins
14. Gibson Dunn
15. Simpson Thacher & Bartlett
16. White & Case
17. Debevoise & Plimpton
18. Ropes & Gray
19. Dechert LLP (Philadelphia)
20. Fried Frank Harris Shriver & Jacobson
21. Kirkland & Ellis
22. Cahill Gordon & Reindell
23. Pepper Hamilton LLP (Philadelphia)
24. Cooley LLP
25. Freshfields
26. Sidley Austin LLP
27. Ballard Spahr LLP (Philadelphia)
28. Kaye Scholer
29. Kramer, Levin, Naftalis & Frankel
30. Goodwin Procter
31. Drinker Biddle & Reath LLP
32. Hogan Lovells
33. Winston & Strawn LLP
34. Paul Hastings LLP
35. O'Melveny & Myers

Relevent to my interests as well, as I'm also an incoming transfer with a somewhat similar list.

As to substantive critiques, some of the firms near the bottom of your list have very low bid/interview ratios, leading me to believe that your chances of getting those interviews are very low (OMM especially)? At least as I understand the system.

[Anonymous User]

How do you guys deal with Resume Collect & other firms that don't come to EIP who may not be as familiar with HLS's bizarro grading (as if the firms that do come to EIP know any better).

Specifically, how do you deal with the presumption that applies almost everywhere else: if you don't list it, that means it probably sucked.

Do you somehow explain in your cover letter/online job application that HLS's policy does not permit the calculation or listing of self-calculated GPAs?

[Anonymous User]

1H/9P here. Targeting NY Corporate. I missed the deadline to submit a bid list for OCI for review so would love to have some input from 2Ls/3Ls. I think that my list is a bid aggressive. Basically I listed the firms I want to work for in the front, balanced out with interview/bid ratio. Thanks in advance for help!

1. Clifford Chance 37%
2. Shearman & Sterling 50%
3. White & Case 57%
4. Debevoise & Plimpton 63%
5. Freshfields N/A
6. Weil Gotshal & Manges 57%
7. Skadden 62%
8. Latham 67%
9. Kirkland 72%
10. Milbank 79%
11. Fried Frank 78%
12. Cleary 82%
13. Schulte 63%
14. Proskauer 53%
15. Davis Polk 76%
16. Cadwalader 84%
17. Paul Weiss 89%
18. Ropes & Gray 91%
19. Willkie Farr 92%
20. Covington 78%
21. Gibson Dunn 94%
22. Akin Gump 69%
23. Steptoe (DC) 92%
24. foley hoag (Boston) 94%
25. Chadbourne 64%
26. Dechert LLP 61%
27. Hogan Lovells 51%
28. Jones Day 44%
29. Sidley 41%
30. Paul Hastings 33%
31. Cooley 33%
32. Allen & Overy 32% (20/62)
33. Goodwin Procter (Boston) 103%
34. WilmerHale (Boston) 102%

[Anonymous User]

1H/9P here. Targeting NY Corporate. I missed the deadline to submit a bid list for OCI for review so would love to have some input from 2Ls/3Ls. I think that my list is a bid aggressive. Basically I listed the firms I want to work for in the front, balanced out with interview/bid ratio. Thanks in advance for help!

1. Clifford Chance 37%
2. Shearman & Sterling 50%
3. White & Case 57%
4. Debevoise & Plimpton 63%
5. Freshfields N/A
6. Weil Gotshal & Manges 57%
7. Skadden 62%
8. Latham 67%
9. Kirkland 72%
10. Milbank 79%
11. Fried Frank 78%
12. Cleary 82%
13. Schulte 63%
14. Proskauer 53%
15. Davis Polk 76%
16. Cadwalader 84%
17. Paul Weiss 89%
18. Ropes & Gray 91%
19. Willkie Farr 92%
20. Covington 78%
21. Gibson Dunn 94%
22. Akin Gump 69%
23. Steptoe (DC) 92%
24. Foley Hoag (Boston) 94%
25. Chadbourne 64%
26. Dechert LLP 61%
27. Hogan Lovells 51%
28. Jones Day 44%
29. Sidley 41%
30. Paul Hastings 33%
31. Cooley 33%
32. Allen & Overy 32% (20/62)
33. Goodwin Procter (Boston) 103%
34. WilmerHale (Boston) 102%

Anyone please?

[johndoe111]

"...a bid aggressive."

But yeah, sorry I can't help. Are there any 3Ls who can weigh in?

[Anonymous User]

1H/9P here. Targeting NY Corporate. I missed the deadline to submit a bid list for OCI for review so would love to have some input from 2Ls/3Ls. I think that my list is a bid aggressive. Basically I listed the firms I want to work for in the front, balanced out with interview/bid ratio. Thanks in advance for help!

1. Clifford Chance 37%
2. Shearman & Sterling 50%
3. White & Case 57%
4. Debevoise & Plimpton 63%
5. Freshfields N/A
6. Weil Gotshal & Manges 57%
7. Skadden 62%
8. Latham 67%
9. Kirkland 72%
10. Milbank 79%
11. Fried Frank 78%
12. Cleary 82%
13. Schulte 63%
14. Proskauer 53%
15. Davis Polk 76%
16. Cadwalader 84%
17. Paul Weiss 89%
18. Ropes & Gray 91%
19. Willkie Farr 92%
20. Covington 78%
21. Gibson Dunn 94%
22. Akin Gump 69%
23. Steptoe (DC) 92%
24. Foley Hoag (Boston) 94%
25. Chadbourne 64%
26. Dechert LLP 61%
27. Hogan Lovells 51%
28. Jones Day 44%
29. Sidley 41%
30. Paul Hastings 33%
31. Cooley 33%
32. Allen & Overy 32% (20/62)
33. Goodwin Procter (Boston) 103%
34. WilmerHale (Boston) 102%

Anyone please?

I'm only a rising 2L but it seems reasonable to me. With 1H some firms you've listed seem to be reaches (White & Case, Debevoise & Plimpton, Gibson Dunn, etc.), but I think you have enough target firms that you should be fine.

[Anonymous User]

1H/9P here. Targeting NY Corporate. I missed the deadline to submit a bid list for OCI for review so would love to have some input from 2Ls/3Ls. I think that my list is a bid aggressive. Basically I listed the firms I want to work for in the front, balanced out with interview/bid ratio. Thanks in advance for help!

1. Clifford Chance 37%
2. Shearman & Sterling 50%
3. White & Case 57%
4. Debevoise & Plimpton 63%
5. Freshfields N/A
6. Weil Gotshal & Manges 57%
7. Skadden 62%
8. Latham 67%
9. Kirkland 72%
10. Milbank 79%
11. Fried Frank 78%
12. Cleary 82%
13. Schulte 63%
14. Proskauer 53%
15. Davis Polk 76%
16. Cadwalader 84%
17. Paul Weiss 89%
18. Ropes & Gray 91%
19. Willkie Farr 92%
20. Covington 78%
21. Gibson Dunn 94%
22. Akin Gump 69%
23. Steptoe (DC) 92%
24. Foley Hoag (Boston) 94%
25. Chadbourne 64%
26. Dechert LLP 61%
27. Hogan Lovells 51%
28. Jones Day 44%
29. Sidley 41%
30. Paul Hastings 33%
31. Cooley 33%
32. Allen & Overy 32% (20/62)
33. Goodwin Procter (Boston) 103%
34. WilmerHale (Boston) 102%

Anyone please?

I'm only a rising 2L but it seems reasonable to me. With 1H some firms you've listed seem to be reaches (White & Case, Debevoise & Plimpton, Gibson Dunn, etc.), but I think you have enough target firms that you should be fine.

I'm also just a rising 2L, and maybe this is just rumours, but I was under the impression that Gibson had a hard 5H minimum. I would ask around and confirm, but from what I know Gibson would be a waste of a bid with 1H.

[Anonymous User]

Hey guys, any advice on this bid list? 1H, the rest Ps. Bidding mostly NYC with a few nominal firms in LA because of family. Interested in transactional work.

1 Debevoise NYC
2 MoFo NYC
3 O'Melveny NYC
4 Sidley NYC
5 Ropes NYC
6 O'Melveny LA
7 Schulte NYC
8 Kaye NYC
9 Cleary NYC
10 Proskauer NYC
11 Winston & Strawn NYC
12 Covington NYC
13 White & Case NYC
14 Davis Polk NYC
15 Shearman NYC
16 Morgan Lewis NYC
17 Paul Hastings NYC
18 Kramer Levin NYC
19 DLA Piper NYC
20 Katten NYC
21 Weil NYC
22 Jones Day NYC
23 Orrick NYC
24 Akin NYC
25 Fried Frank NYC
26 Goodwin NYC
27 Dechert NYC
28 WilmerHale NYC
29 Clifford Chance NYC
30 Baker Botts NYC
31 Mintz Levin NYC
32 Skadden LA
33 Cooley LA
34 Sidley LA
35 Latham LA

Too conservative? Not conservative enough? I have no real idea what I'm doing so any advice would be appreciated

Any input? Thanks in advance.

[TripTrip]

I'm also just a rising 2L, and maybe this is just rumours, but I was under the impression that Gibson had a hard 5H minimum. I would ask around and confirm, but from what I know Gibson would be a waste of a bid with 1H.

This is accurate.

[ValeVale]

I'm also just a rising 2L, and maybe this is just rumours, but I was under the impression that Gibson had a hard 5H minimum. I would ask around and confirm, but from what I know Gibson would be a waste of a bid with 1H.

This is accurate.

So it is a waste with 4Hs? I've tried to learn from OCS what firms have cut offs like this, but they just keep saying "its a reach, but possible"....

[Anonymous User]

I'm also just a rising 2L, and maybe this is just rumours, but I was under the impression that Gibson had a hard 5H minimum. I would ask around and confirm, but from what I know Gibson would be a waste of a bid with 1H.

This is accurate.

Thank you both for the input! Do you spot any other firms that I lack of a realistic chance to get in?

[TripTrip]

I'm also just a rising 2L, and maybe this is just rumours, but I was under the impression that Gibson had a hard 5H minimum. I would ask around and confirm, but from what I know Gibson would be a waste of a bid with 1H.

This is accurate.

So it is a waste with 4Hs? I've tried to learn from OCS what firms have cut offs like this, but they just keep saying "its a reach, but possible"....

Out of sixty people who reported having callbacks with Gibson in the past two years, zero had fewer than 5 Hs. That said, things can change at firms. Plus there's an element of self-selection. If no one with fewer than 5 Hs interviews with Gibson because they think it's a hard cut off, it will always look like there's a hard cut off and the cycle will continue.

But yeah it does look like a reach even with 4 Hs.

Thank you both for the input! Do you spot any other firms that I lack of a realistic chance to get in?

Apologies, I can't go over lists of firms here. Partially because there are just so many lists, but mostly because that starts to border on ranking the firms with grade data.

[ValeVale]

I'm also just a rising 2L, and maybe this is just rumours, but I was under the impression that Gibson had a hard 5H minimum. I would ask around and confirm, but from what I know Gibson would be a waste of a bid with 1H.

This is accurate.

So it is a waste with 4Hs? I've tried to learn from OCS what firms have cut offs like this, but they just keep saying "its a reach, but possible"....

Out of sixty people who reported having callbacks with Gibson in the past two years, zero had fewer than 5 Hs. That said, things can change at firms. Plus there's an element of self-selection. If no one with fewer than 5 Hs interviews with Gibson because they think it's a hard cut off, it will always look like there's a hard cut off and the cycle will continue.

But yeah it does look like a reach even with 4 Hs.

Thank you both for the input! Do you spot any other firms that I lack of a realistic chance to get in?

Apologies, I can't go over lists of firms here. Partially because there are just so many lists, but mostly because that starts to border on ranking the firms with grade data.

Thank you, would love if OCS shared this info with me. Any other firms with similar cutoffs?

[Anonymous User]

I'm also just a rising 2L, and maybe this is just rumours, but I was under the impression that Gibson had a hard 5H minimum. I would ask around and confirm, but from what I know Gibson would be a waste of a bid with 1H.

This is accurate.

Is this true for the NY office? I know someone who got Gibson in the last couple of years who, at least according to his/her claims, had less than 5 Hs.

[leslieknope]

I'm planning on ranking my bid list based mostly on the Dope percentages. Should I go with the percentage that appears on the draft bid list or the one that's on the market page? Sometimes there's a significant disparity.

Also, how safe is it to bid firms that you really want fairly low because of Dope percentages? Like, I'm getting itchy ranking Covington and Irell in the low 20s but they have a 98% and 109% bid to screener ratio respectively,

[Anonymous User]

I'm also just a rising 2L, and maybe this is just rumours, but I was under the impression that Gibson had a hard 5H minimum. I would ask around and confirm, but from what I know Gibson would be a waste of a bid with 1H.

This is accurate.

So it is a waste with 4Hs? I've tried to learn from OCS what firms have cut offs like this, but they just keep saying "its a reach, but possible"....

Out of sixty people who reported having callbacks with Gibson in the past two years, zero had fewer than 5 Hs. That said, things can change at firms. Plus there's an element of self-selection. If no one with fewer than 5 Hs interviews with Gibson because they think it's a hard cut off, it will always look like there's a hard cut off and the cycle will continue.

But yeah it does look like a reach even with 4 Hs.

Thank you both for the input! Do you spot any other firms that I lack of a realistic chance to get in?

Apologies, I can't go over lists of firms here. Partially because there are just so many lists, but mostly because that starts to border on ranking the firms with grade data.

Why can't you "rank the firms with grade data"? I don't really get what you are getting at.

[TripTrip]

Is this true for the NY office? I know someone who got Gibson in the last couple of years who, at least according to his/her claims, had less than 5 Hs.

Could be true. As I mentioned above, if you have 3 or 4 Hs it's not a total waste to bid on somewhere that you think has a hard 5 H cutoff. It would be a waste if you have 2 LPs, but if you have a full bid list with a variety of firms there's no reason not to try bidding on a few firms that you're not sure you are qualified for. Even if Gibson has a cutoff, I'm sure a hiring partner there would tell you the same thing.

Why can't you "rank the firms with grade data"? I don't really get what you are getting at.

I don't list grade data from law firm recruitment because law firms could try to game it to make themselves look more prestigious. i.e., if I know nothing else about Firm X and Firm Y but I am told that Firm X only takes students with 5+ Hs and Firm Y takes students regardless of grades, I would assume that I should prefer Firm X and strive to be at Firm X. In reality, grade cutoffs are a horrible measure of firm prestige and providing an avenue by which to incentivize their use would inevitably hurt students with below median grades. I'll grant that this is a utilitarian outlook.

I realize that it seems overboard for that to mean not commenting on lists on TLS. In more practical terms: I work with a lot of people to share bidding/success/outcome data and have agreed not to share certain things publicly, even if some of it is technically my data or analysis.

I'm planning on ranking my bid list based mostly on the Dope percentages. Should I go with the percentage that appears on the draft bid list or the one that's on the market page? Sometimes there's a significant disparity.

Draft bid list as long as it doesn't say schedule mismatch. Otherwise market page. The one on the bid list is just last year. The one on the market page averages the past five years. Some firms have changed how many interviews they do at EIP, which will change the bid success rate. If they have the same number of schedules as last year, then last year will probably be more accurate.

Also, how safe is it to bid firms that you really want fairly low because of Dope percentages? Like, I'm getting itchy ranking Covington and Irell in the low 20s but they have a 98% and 109% bid to screener ratio respectively,

I'd recommend bidding them higher. First because that low on your bid list you'll be bidding against yourself. That is, you might fill up a significant portion of your own interview schedule. When it gets to Irell and you already have five interviews scheduled on Friday, even if they have open slots you may not get it. (See the bottom of the bid list to check how many you have bid for each day.)

Last year some students were bidding high-percentage firms low on their list and not getting them, then going to the firm and saying they thought they would get the interview even if they bid low and could they please fit them in a slot at some point. I got a bit of flack for that, which is part of why I recommend bidding firms that you really do want (for any reason whatsoever) in your top ten or top fifteen if they aren't on your busy days. Because then people are more likely to be satisfied with the results and I'm less likely to get flack.

[Anonymous User]

I think the general strategy should be to maximize interviews/offers unless you have killer grades/great interviewer. Then of course you can f it and bid on any firms you want. As others have mentioned, its really hard to have any strong opinions on any of the firms at this point. So yeah, do take a serious look at cb/offer, bid/interview ratios etc. Ppl at hls do strike out.

What would you say qualify as "killer grades" for this advice to apply?

bump