What's going on in Texas? Forum

[Anonymous User]

What is going on with Norton Rose? They are the only main player in Texas left that has not matched at least for first years. There is almost no way they do not match ... right? Has that firm fallen that much? I get that they are not really on the same level as VE/BB, but I thought they at least tried to pretend they are...

[Anonymous User]

What is going on with Norton Rose? They are the only main player in Texas left that has not matched at least for first years. There is almost no way they do not match ... right? Has that firm fallen that much? I get that they are not really on the same level as VE/BB, but I thought they at least tried to pretend they are...

They do at least pretend with respect to OCI/2Ls that they are. I assume they will match 180 first year base before OCI. They don't pay market though.

I was shocked by the high quality of students they were able to recruit from my class at UT.

[Anonymous User]

What is going on with Norton Rose? They are the only main player in Texas left that has not matched at least for first years. There is almost no way they do not match ... right? Has that firm fallen that much? I get that they are not really on the same level as VE/BB, but I thought they at least tried to pretend they are...

They do at least pretend with respect to OCI/2Ls that they are. I assume they will match 180 first year base before OCI. They don't pay market though.

I was shocked by the high quality of students they were able to recruit from my class at UT.

They are still a litigation powerhouse. Not that long ago they were basically on equal footing with BB and V&E, but their corporate practice has deteriorated since then and the firm as a whole has lagged behind in terms of numbers. They are still able to recruit elite students who want to do litigation, but that will definitely end if they don't match.

[Anonymous User]

What is going on with Norton Rose? They are the only main player in Texas left that has not matched at least for first years. There is almost no way they do not match ... right? Has that firm fallen that much? I get that they are not really on the same level as VE/BB, but I thought they at least tried to pretend they are...

They do at least pretend with respect to OCI/2Ls that they are. I assume they will match 180 first year base before OCI. They don't pay market though.

I was shocked by the high quality of students they were able to recruit from my class at UT.

They are still a litigation powerhouse. Not that long ago they were basically on equal footing with BB and V&E, but their corporate practice has deteriorated since then and the firm as a whole has lagged behind in terms of numbers. They are still able to recruit elite students who want to do litigation, but that will definitely end if they don't match.

Good point. My surprise was only concerning people who chose them for transactional.

[Anonymous User]

aint no trucks in texas

[Anonymous User]

What is going on with Norton Rose? They are the only main player in Texas left that has not matched at least for first years. There is almost no way they do not match ... right? Has that firm fallen that much? I get that they are not really on the same level as VE/BB, but I thought they at least tried to pretend they are...

They do at least pretend with respect to OCI/2Ls that they are. I assume they will match 180 first year base before OCI. They don't pay market though.

I was shocked by the high quality of students they were able to recruit from my class at UT.

They are still a litigation powerhouse. Not that long ago they were basically on equal footing with BB and V&E, but their corporate practice has deteriorated since then and the firm as a whole has lagged behind in terms of numbers. They are still able to recruit elite students who want to do litigation, but that will definitely end if they don't match.

Good point. My surprise was only concerning people who chose them for transactional.

I don't know if I totally agree with this. Most of the "elite students" who wanted litigation went to a boutique (e.g. AZA, Susman, Beck, Gibbs, etc.). I think that is why Fulbright is struggling and may not be able to match. Their corporate group is small and they kept many of the lit groups that are not all that profitable. I think the struggle is this huge influx of lit boutiques that the best law students, and then the top students who want corporate go to BB/VE/Latham. I would not be shocked if NRF doesn't match. If they do, it won't be full lock step because there is no way they can afford that...they have the lowest PPP of any big shop in Texas.

[Anonymous User]

What is going on with Norton Rose? They are the only main player in Texas left that has not matched at least for first years. There is almost no way they do not match ... right? Has that firm fallen that much? I get that they are not really on the same level as VE/BB, but I thought they at least tried to pretend they are...

They do at least pretend with respect to OCI/2Ls that they are. I assume they will match 180 first year base before OCI. They don't pay market though.

I was shocked by the high quality of students they were able to recruit from my class at UT.

They are still a litigation powerhouse. Not that long ago they were basically on equal footing with BB and V&E, but their corporate practice has deteriorated since then and the firm as a whole has lagged behind in terms of numbers. They are still able to recruit elite students who want to do litigation, but that will definitely end if they don't match.

Good point. My surprise was only concerning people who chose them for transactional.

I don't know if I totally agree with this. Most of the "elite students" who wanted litigation went to a boutique (e.g. AZA, Susman, Beck, Gibbs, etc.). I think that is why Fulbright is struggling and may not be able to match. Their corporate group is small and they kept many of the lit groups that are not all that profitable. I think the struggle is this huge influx of lit boutiques that the best law students, and then the top students who want corporate go to BB/VE/Latham. I would not be shocked if NRF doesn't match. If they do, it won't be full lock step because there is no way they can afford that...they have the lowest PPP of any big shop in Texas.

How many SAs is AZA hiring?

[Anonymous User]

What is going on with Norton Rose? They are the only main player in Texas left that has not matched at least for first years. There is almost no way they do not match ... right? Has that firm fallen that much? I get that they are not really on the same level as VE/BB, but I thought they at least tried to pretend they are...

They do at least pretend with respect to OCI/2Ls that they are. I assume they will match 180 first year base before OCI. They don't pay market though.

I was shocked by the high quality of students they were able to recruit from my class at UT.

They are still a litigation powerhouse. Not that long ago they were basically on equal footing with BB and V&E, but their corporate practice has deteriorated since then and the firm as a whole has lagged behind in terms of numbers. They are still able to recruit elite students who want to do litigation, but that will definitely end if they don't match.

Good point. My surprise was only concerning people who chose them for transactional.

I don't know if I totally agree with this. Most of the "elite students" who wanted litigation went to a boutique (e.g. AZA, Susman, Beck, Gibbs, etc.). I think that is why Fulbright is struggling and may not be able to match. Their corporate group is small and they kept many of the lit groups that are not all that profitable. I think the struggle is this huge influx of lit boutiques that the best law students, and then the top students who want corporate go to BB/VE/Latham. I would not be shocked if NRF doesn't match. If they do, it won't be full lock step because there is no way they can afford that...they have the lowest PPP of any big shop in Texas.

How many SAs is AZA hiring?

You're missing the point. When you add up all of the litigation boutiques, it is not an insignificant number of students/attorneys in the Houston/Dallas area practicing litigation. I don't really know anyone at NRF, but their corporate group is basically non-existent in Houston (which is the most profitable group for most firms) and their PPP is the lowest of any of the large firms. I honestly have no idea how we got to the talent discussion, but I just don't get the sense that they have the work flow to sustain these kind of raises. And if they don't raise by July 1, they are going to get destroyed at OCI because no one would choose to make 20-35k less no matter what practice group they were interested in.

[Anonymous User]

What is going on with Norton Rose? They are the only main player in Texas left that has not matched at least for first years. There is almost no way they do not match ... right? Has that firm fallen that much? I get that they are not really on the same level as VE/BB, but I thought they at least tried to pretend they are...

They do at least pretend with respect to OCI/2Ls that they are. I assume they will match 180 first year base before OCI. They don't pay market though.

I was shocked by the high quality of students they were able to recruit from my class at UT.

They are still a litigation powerhouse. Not that long ago they were basically on equal footing with BB and V&E, but their corporate practice has deteriorated since then and the firm as a whole has lagged behind in terms of numbers. They are still able to recruit elite students who want to do litigation, but that will definitely end if they don't match.

Good point. My surprise was only concerning people who chose them for transactional.

I don't know if I totally agree with this. Most of the "elite students" who wanted litigation went to a boutique (e.g. AZA, Susman, Beck, Gibbs, etc.). I think that is why Fulbright is struggling and may not be able to match. Their corporate group is small and they kept many of the lit groups that are not all that profitable. I think the struggle is this huge influx of lit boutiques that the best law students, and then the top students who want corporate go to BB/VE/Latham. I would not be shocked if NRF doesn't match. If they do, it won't be full lock step because there is no way they can afford that...they have the lowest PPP of any big shop in Texas.

How many SAs is AZA hiring?

You're missing the point. When you add up all of the litigation boutiques, it is not an insignificant number of students/attorneys in the Houston/Dallas area practicing litigation. I don't really know anyone at NRF, but their corporate group is basically non-existent in Houston (which is the most profitable group for most firms) and their PPP is the lowest of any of the large firms. I honestly have no idea how we got to the talent discussion, but I just don't get the sense that they have the work flow to sustain these kind of raises. And if they don't raise by July 1, they are going to get destroyed at OCI because no one would choose to make 20-35k less no matter what practice group they were interested in.

Hey it's an honest question. It's a different anon. I'm genuinely curious.

[Anonymous User]

What is going on with Norton Rose? They are the only main player in Texas left that has not matched at least for first years. There is almost no way they do not match ... right? Has that firm fallen that much? I get that they are not really on the same level as VE/BB, but I thought they at least tried to pretend they are...

They do at least pretend with respect to OCI/2Ls that they are. I assume they will match 180 first year base before OCI. They don't pay market though.

I was shocked by the high quality of students they were able to recruit from my class at UT.

They are still a litigation powerhouse. Not that long ago they were basically on equal footing with BB and V&E, but their corporate practice has deteriorated since then and the firm as a whole has lagged behind in terms of numbers. They are still able to recruit elite students who want to do litigation, but that will definitely end if they don't match.

Good point. My surprise was only concerning people who chose them for transactional.

I don't know if I totally agree with this. Most of the "elite students" who wanted litigation went to a boutique (e.g. AZA, Susman, Beck, Gibbs, etc.). I think that is why Fulbright is struggling and may not be able to match. Their corporate group is small and they kept many of the lit groups that are not all that profitable. I think the struggle is this huge influx of lit boutiques that the best law students, and then the top students who want corporate go to BB/VE/Latham. I would not be shocked if NRF doesn't match. If they do, it won't be full lock step because there is no way they can afford that...they have the lowest PPP of any big shop in Texas.

How many SAs is AZA hiring?

You're missing the point. When you add up all of the litigation boutiques, it is not an insignificant number of students/attorneys in the Houston/Dallas area practicing litigation. I don't really know anyone at NRF, but their corporate group is basically non-existent in Houston (which is the most profitable group for most firms) and their PPP is the lowest of any of the large firms. I honestly have no idea how we got to the talent discussion, but I just don't get the sense that they have the work flow to sustain these kind of raises. And if they don't raise by July 1, they are going to get destroyed at OCI because no one would choose to make 20-35k less no matter what practice group they were interested in.

I have some insider knowledge and I know that the SAs at NRF this year had some elite GPAs from great schools. Part of that is still a function of the market being saturated with law students, so that (up until now) it has not been hard for any firm to find high-caliber people. Also they do well at OCI because they can say they are a giant $1.8 billion revenue verein, without disclosing their minuscule PPP or the fact that revenue is not shared between their continents.

But to your main point, you correctly diagnose that their problem is their lack of a meaningful corporate practice to keep up with the big boys, while their lit is struggling to compete with the more nimble boutiques.

[Anonymous User]

Former Texas Big 2 Midlevel here that recently left firm life.

NRF is in a tight spot. Entering this year, NRF Texas was on a significantly compressed payscale. NRF only recently (within the last two months?) matched old NYC lockstep for all associates in Texas. To now also match Cravath (even if only for first year base + back to a compressed scale for other class years) is going to be tough to absorb.

[Anonymous User]

Former Texas Big 2 Midlevel here that recently left firm life.

NRF is in a tight spot. Entering this year, NRF Texas was on a significantly compressed payscale. NRF only recently (within the last two months?) matched old NYC lockstep for all associates in Texas. To now also match Cravath (even if only for first year base + back to a compressed scale for other class years) is going to be tough to absorb.

Not to derail the thread, but how does it feel to be out? Seems that most exit options in Texas right now are to other firms (K&E, Simpson, etc. all still trying to grow), if you're at one of the Texas elite corp. shops, there is no real reason to make this move.

I actually enjoy the law firm life/work. I just wish it would be a little more predictable/consistent.

[Anonymous User]

Everyone on TLS acts like tx pays like NY just because they announce "matches" or wtv... does V&E pay lockstep year to year advances? Because I worked at BB and it's not even close after first or second year. "Levels" system. You had 3rd even 4th years with iirc a 170k base. Bonuses varied but usually seemed to be not nearly the massive bonuses reported by ATL for the big ny firms

[wiz]

Everyone on TLS acts like tx pays like NY just because they announce "matches" or wtv... does V&E pay lockstep year to year advances? Because I worked at BB and it's not even close after first or second year. "Levels" system. You had 3rd even 4th years with iirc a 170k base. Bonuses varied but usually seemed to be not nearly the massive bonuses reported by ATL for the big ny firms

How long ago did you work at BB? TX bonuses can sometimes be underwhelming, but all the big players in TX have been doing NYC-scale base salaries for a while now. They had no choice after Latham/KE/STB/GDC entered the market and started poaching.

VE for sure pays NYC lockstep year to year, for example, but presumably not everybody makes NYC market bonuses since they only report "median" bonus figures.

[Anonymous User]

Former Texas Big 2 Midlevel here that recently left firm life.

NRF is in a tight spot. Entering this year, NRF Texas was on a significantly compressed payscale. NRF only recently (within the last two months?) matched old NYC lockstep for all associates in Texas. To now also match Cravath (even if only for first year base + back to a compressed scale for other class years) is going to be tough to absorb.

Not to derail the thread, but how does it feel to be out? Seems that most exit options in Texas right now are to other firms (K&E, Simpson, etc. all still trying to grow), if you're at one of the Texas elite corp. shops, there is no real reason to make this move.

I actually enjoy the law firm life/work. I just wish it would be a little more predictable/consistent.

Like you, I enjoyed firm work/life except for the unpredictability of the schedule. I had a really good relationship with the partners that I worked for. A firm client recruited me heavily to jump into a business role and the offer was too good to pass up. I now lead a small business unit that sources, evaluates and negotiates the deals I was working on as a lawyer. Very happy so far with the move.

My sense was that exit ops were improving over the last six months and associates were starting to leave for good in house jobs. Between January of 2014 and December of 2015, it felt like there were very few in house departures from my office.

I'm with you 100% that in most cases it doesn't make sense for associates in good standing to trade one top tier firm for another.

[Anonymous User]

Everyone on TLS acts like tx pays like NY just because they announce "matches" or wtv... does V&E pay lockstep year to year advances? Because I worked at BB and it's not even close after first or second year. "Levels" system. You had 3rd even 4th years with iirc a 170k base. Bonuses varied but usually seemed to be not nearly the massive bonuses reported by ATL for the big ny firms

How long ago did you work at BB? TX bonuses can sometimes be underwhelming, but all the big players in TX have been doing NYC-scale base salaries for a while now. They had no choice after Latham/KE/STB/GDC entered the market and started poaching.

VE for sure pays NYC lockstep year to year, for example, but presumably not everybody makes NYC market bonuses since they only report "median" bonus figures.

Yeah all of the TX offices of NY firms pay NY base + bonus. V&E/BB match base generally. BB timing is a little weird but sometimes you make over NY base, sometimes you make under. V&E/BB require 2000 hours for bonuses and you may be below NY bonus at, e.g., 2150, but lots of people were above NY bonus at 2300+.

Right now at BB 2nd year base is 200 (above), 3rd year base is 200 (below), 4th year base is likely 260 (above) and so on.

[Anonymous User]

Everyone on TLS acts like tx pays like NY just because they announce "matches" or wtv... does V&E pay lockstep year to year advances? Because I worked at BB and it's not even close after first or second year. "Levels" system. You had 3rd even 4th years with iirc a 170k base. Bonuses varied but usually seemed to be not nearly the massive bonuses reported by ATL for the big ny firms

Yeah, it sounds like you have been away from the TX legal market (or at least biglaw) for quite some time. V&E has matched lock-step for years now and BB level system puts you in just as good a place as NYC scale. The issue is bonuses sometimes. VE beats NY bonus if you hit 2300, but seems to pay lower bonus if you don't hit hours.

[Ken Kesey]

What is going on with Norton Rose? They are the only main player in Texas left that has not matched at least for first years. There is almost no way they do not match ... right? Has that firm fallen that much? I get that they are not really on the same level as VE/BB, but I thought they at least tried to pretend they are...

FYI in Texas call them "Fullbright", Norton Rose is the English firm and Fullbright and Jabrorski? was the Texas firm.

[Devlin]

What is going on with Norton Rose? They are the only main player in Texas left that has not matched at least for first years. There is almost no way they do not match ... right? Has that firm fallen that much? I get that they are not really on the same level as VE/BB, but I thought they at least tried to pretend they are...

FYI in Texas call them "Fullbright", Norton Rose is the English firm and Fullbright and Jabrorski? was the Texas firm.

It was Fulbright & Jaworski. Unless you were bros with Leon Jaworski and called him Jabrorski.

[Anonymous User]

Former Texas Big 2 Midlevel here that recently left firm life.

NRF is in a tight spot. Entering this year, NRF Texas was on a significantly compressed payscale. NRF only recently (within the last two months?) matched old NYC lockstep for all associates in Texas. To now also match Cravath (even if only for first year base + back to a compressed scale for other class years) is going to be tough to absorb.

Not to derail the thread, but how does it feel to be out? Seems that most exit options in Texas right now are to other firms (K&E, Simpson, etc. all still trying to grow), if you're at one of the Texas elite corp. shops, there is no real reason to make this move.

I actually enjoy the law firm life/work. I just wish it would be a little more predictable/consistent.

Like you, I enjoyed firm work/life except for the unpredictability of the schedule. I had a really good relationship with the partners that I worked for. A firm client recruited me heavily to jump into a business role and the offer was too good to pass up. I now lead a small business unit that sources, evaluates and negotiates the deals I was working on as a lawyer. Very happy so far with the move.

My sense was that exit ops were improving over the last six months and associates were starting to leave for good in house jobs. Between January of 2014 and December of 2015, it felt like there were very few in house departures from my office.

I'm with you 100% that in most cases it doesn't make sense for associates in good standing to trade one top tier firm for another.

Yeah, it seems like no one has left at my firm for positions other than to other firms in town. Did you take a pay hit when you moved? When I read this site about in house jobs, you always hear about large pay cuts...but the few people I know who have done it in Houston usually make between 185-200+k all in comp, about where they were as an associate.

[mister logical]

What is going on with Norton Rose? They are the only main player in Texas left that has not matched at least for first years. There is almost no way they do not match ... right? Has that firm fallen that much? I get that they are not really on the same level as VE/BB, but I thought they at least tried to pretend they are...

FYI in Texas call them "Fullbright", Norton Rose is the English firm and Fullbright and Jabrorski? was the Texas firm.

It was Fulbright & Jaworski. Unless you were bros with Leon Jaworski and called him Jabrorski.

[unlicensedpotato]

What is going on with Norton Rose? They are the only main player in Texas left that has not matched at least for first years. There is almost no way they do not match ... right? Has that firm fallen that much? I get that they are not really on the same level as VE/BB, but I thought they at least tried to pretend they are...

FYI in Texas call them "Fullbright", Norton Rose is the English firm and Fullbright and Jabrorski? was the Texas firm.

It was Fulbright & Jaworski. Unless you were bros with Leon Jaworski and called him Jabrorski.

Look, if Ken Kesey says it's Jabrorski, then it's Jabrorski. Lotta cockiness in this thread re: firm names.

[Anonymous User]

Former Texas Big 2 Midlevel here that recently left firm life.

NRF is in a tight spot. Entering this year, NRF Texas was on a significantly compressed payscale. NRF only recently (within the last two months?) matched old NYC lockstep for all associates in Texas. To now also match Cravath (even if only for first year base + back to a compressed scale for other class years) is going to be tough to absorb.

Not to derail the thread, but how does it feel to be out? Seems that most exit options in Texas right now are to other firms (K&E, Simpson, etc. all still trying to grow), if you're at one of the Texas elite corp. shops, there is no real reason to make this move.

I actually enjoy the law firm life/work. I just wish it would be a little more predictable/consistent.

Like you, I enjoyed firm work/life except for the unpredictability of the schedule. I had a really good relationship with the partners that I worked for. A firm client recruited me heavily to jump into a business role and the offer was too good to pass up. I now lead a small business unit that sources, evaluates and negotiates the deals I was working on as a lawyer. Very happy so far with the move.

My sense was that exit ops were improving over the last six months and associates were starting to leave for good in house jobs. Between January of 2014 and December of 2015, it felt like there were very few in house departures from my office.

I'm with you 100% that in most cases it doesn't make sense for associates in good standing to trade one top tier firm for another.

Yeah, it seems like no one has left at my firm for positions other than to other firms in town. Did you take a pay hit when you moved? When I read this site about in house jobs, you always hear about large pay cuts...but the few people I know who have done it in Houston usually make between 185-200+k all in comp, about where they were as an associate.

Base pay increased three class years for me with the move (under the old payscale) and all in comp will probably be low 300s (bonus will be much more variable and results driven for me).

I know people will call flame on me, but, FWIW and only speaking for myself and people I completely trust were not bullshitting me, in the past 6 months I know people left for all in comp packages that were $240k on the conservative end and could get as high as $400k depending on company performance. These tended to be jobs with financial institutions, but one person left for an industry that is generally thought of as low paying.

I've also known people that went to big financial institutions and got low $200s all in comp. A friend also turned down a financial institution that wouldn't budge past $170k all in on their offer. In house pay really seems to be company-dependent.

[Anonymous User]

Former Texas Big 2 Midlevel here that recently left firm life.

NRF is in a tight spot. Entering this year, NRF Texas was on a significantly compressed payscale. NRF only recently (within the last two months?) matched old NYC lockstep for all associates in Texas. To now also match Cravath (even if only for first year base + back to a compressed scale for other class years) is going to be tough to absorb.

Not to derail the thread, but how does it feel to be out? Seems that most exit options in Texas right now are to other firms (K&E, Simpson, etc. all still trying to grow), if you're at one of the Texas elite corp. shops, there is no real reason to make this move.

I actually enjoy the law firm life/work. I just wish it would be a little more predictable/consistent.

Like you, I enjoyed firm work/life except for the unpredictability of the schedule. I had a really good relationship with the partners that I worked for. A firm client recruited me heavily to jump into a business role and the offer was too good to pass up. I now lead a small business unit that sources, evaluates and negotiates the deals I was working on as a lawyer. Very happy so far with the move.

My sense was that exit ops were improving over the last six months and associates were starting to leave for good in house jobs. Between January of 2014 and December of 2015, it felt like there were very few in house departures from my office.

I'm with you 100% that in most cases it doesn't make sense for associates in good standing to trade one top tier firm for another.

Yeah, it seems like no one has left at my firm for positions other than to other firms in town. Did you take a pay hit when you moved? When I read this site about in house jobs, you always hear about large pay cuts...but the few people I know who have done it in Houston usually make between 185-200+k all in comp, about where they were as an associate.

Base pay increased three class years for me with the move (under the old payscale) and all in comp will probably be low 300s (bonus will be much more variable and results driven for me).

I know people will call flame on me, but, FWIW and only speaking for myself and people I completely trust were not bullshitting me, in the past 6 months I know people left for all in comp packages that were $240k on the conservative end and could get as high as $400k depending on company performance. These tended to be jobs with financial institutions, but one person left for an industry that is generally thought of as low paying.

I've also known people that went to big financial institutions and got low $200s all in comp. A friend also turned down a financial institution that wouldn't budge past $170k all in on their offer. In house pay really seems to be company-dependent.

Thank you for this. Can the likelihood of an exit like yours (i.e. a well paying legal/business role) or another well paying in-house position like those you mentioned be maximized somehow (e.g. certain firms, practice areas, type of client, etc.)? Can you generalize on the lifestyle for these exits (hours, predictability of schedule, etc.)? Also, what would you say is the range of seniority for an exit (e.g. 2-5 years of experience)?

[Anonymous User]

Just catching up on the convos on this thread, and thought this article might be helpful to those trying to understand the Houston market:

http://www.houstonchronicle.com/busines ... 887969.php