Public Interest 2015: Thoughts, Anxieties, Experiences... Forum

[El Pollito]

JFC bluelotused again

[BlueLotus]

^ WTF is this even supposed to mean?

[El Pollito]

People who know better than you get caught up in the pointless exercise of giving you advice and you don't listen to any of it.

[BlueLotus]

What advice did I not listen to?

It is better to intern somewhere for more than just a semester or summer. 2 months is too short a time to see a case from start to finish. I don't understand what is so "crazy" or irrational about that. I would like to go back to the org I interned for my 1L summer because at least there is a nonzero chance that they will hire me FTLT. That's being smart.

Looking forward to the lunch meeting with that random small firm attorney who consoled me on the train and gave me his business card. Hopefully he can pull some strings for me. Fingers crossed.

[swampman]

What advice did I not listen to?

It is better to intern somewhere for more than just a semester or summer. 2 months is too short a time to see a case from start to finish. I don't understand what is so "crazy" or irrational about that. I would like to go back to the org I interned for my 1L summer because at least there is a nonzero chance that they will hire me FTLT. That's being smart.

Looking forward to the lunch meeting with that random small firm attorney who consoled me on the train and gave me his business card. Hopefully he can pull some strings for me. Fingers crossed.

Really don't want to pile on here, and hoping the train connection pans out, and going back to an org you already interned for doesn't seem like a bad idea if there's a chance of turning it into a full-time gig.

That said, not wanting to find a new job because you don't have a free line on your resume is pretty crazy. As for the reward you feel from seeing a case from start to finish, I think the suggestion was that you find a new job so that you can build another connection that might lead to a fellowship, regardless of what personal satisfaction you get from the new job (and you won't be able to see a case from start to finish if you go back to the 1L employer, anyway).

[haus]

I can't work for a new org this fall. If I did that, then my one page resume would become two pages and my two page fellowship resume would become three pages, which would look ridiculous. I have like seven fucking unpaid legal internships under my belt, and it would look strange to add an eighth one. I have to either continue working for my current org, or return to intern at one of the orgs that I previously worked at in the same city.

This is the worst reasoning I have ever heard.

I am guessing that you do not spend a lot of time reading Trump statements.

[BlueLotus]

What advice did I not listen to?

It is better to intern somewhere for more than just a semester or summer. 2 months is too short a time to see a case from start to finish. I don't understand what is so "crazy" or irrational about that. I would like to go back to the org I interned for my 1L summer because at least there is a nonzero chance that they will hire me FTLT. That's being smart.

Looking forward to the lunch meeting with that random small firm attorney who consoled me on the train and gave me his business card. Hopefully he can pull some strings for me. Fingers crossed.

Really don't want to pile on here, and hoping the train connection pans out, and going back to an org you already interned for doesn't seem like a bad idea if there's a chance of turning it into a full-time gig.

That said, not wanting to find a new job because you don't have a free line on your resume is pretty crazy. As for the reward you feel from seeing a case from start to finish, I think the suggestion was that you find a new job so that you can build another connection that might lead to a fellowship, regardless of what personal satisfaction you get from the new job (and you won't be able to see a case from start to finish if you go back to the 1L employer, anyway).

I'd prefer to go back to one of the orgs I already worked for that will yield a nonzero chance of hiring me FTLT postgrad--unlike my current employer. No need to add an eighth internship to the resume (which someone else on here said was too many)--a BigLaw partner already described my resume as "impressive but crowded" and I would prefer to not make it even more crowded, if possible.

The attorney I met on the train is a past president of the immigration org I interned for my 1L summer, so perhaps he can pull a few strings for me regarding said org. I am meeting with him tomorrow, so I will let you all know how things go. I guess being a drama queen on the train paid off handsomely, lol!

[chuckbass]

Do you want someone to help you edit your resume? There's probably stuff you can delete (not jobs, but maybe some bullet points, change some formatting, etc.)

[zor]

What advice did I not listen to?

It is better to intern somewhere for more than just a semester or summer. 2 months is too short a time to see a case from start to finish. I don't understand what is so "crazy" or irrational about that. I would like to go back to the org I interned for my 1L summer because at least there is a nonzero chance that they will hire me FTLT. That's being smart.

Looking forward to the lunch meeting with that random small firm attorney who consoled me on the train and gave me his business card. Hopefully he can pull some strings for me. Fingers crossed.

Really don't want to pile on here, and hoping the train connection pans out, and going back to an org you already interned for doesn't seem like a bad idea if there's a chance of turning it into a full-time gig.

That said, not wanting to find a new job because you don't have a free line on your resume is pretty crazy. As for the reward you feel from seeing a case from start to finish, I think the suggestion was that you find a new job so that you can build another connection that might lead to a fellowship, regardless of what personal satisfaction you get from the new job (and you won't be able to see a case from start to finish if you go back to the 1L employer, anyway).

Agreed with everything here. I am almost a decade out of undergrad now and have a one-page resume. Every job is only as good as the next job it gets you. As the older ones are less impressive, they drop off. If I included everything it'd be three pages long. You have to tailor your resume to your area of interest. Like many of us I assume, I'm interested in lots of different fields and have some varied experience, but pretend like my whole life has led to this one single-minded passion for X or Y (whoever's hiring). So yeah, I have internships in women's rights and immigration, but when I'm applying for employment or consumer, those things stay off the resume. Not taking a new internship because of "too many jobs" is just silly. Every resume should be should be a (relevant) greatest hits--it's not a complete transcript of your life's work. Pick the internships that best communicate your skills and interest areas and include those. Leave everything else off.

I also second the advice that finding a new connection and seeing if that gets leveraged into a better employment prospect is 1000% the right thing to do. You've already MADE the old connections you have. You don't have to work there again. I am in constant touch with some old employers and infrequent touch with others. They already know you! Working there again won't add anything--the only thing it will do is take away from the world of networking contacts you have the chance to build next semester. Obviously see if this train connection pans out but working there again won't improve those prospects.

Finally, the chances of you seeing a case from start to finish are close to nil and anyway it's not as important as making sure you have a job next year. I did a full-year clinic and lots of shorter semester ones, as well as summer internships, and never did that. I saw cases at each stage but never tracked the same one. What I did do, however, was keep in touch with my old bosses to find out how my cases were going--this demonstrated both interest and commitment (genuinely, I really do care about my clients), and gave me an excuse to network a little.

Anyway...

The fellowship application cycle is just terrible. Second time I'm doing it (I got a clerkship late enough that I was interviewing for fellowships, too). The worst is when I interview or these people call me and say "We don't want your project, but you seem cool, so we won't reject you, but we don't know if we want you." Thanks. Right now I have a bunch of outstanding "we're interested but not sure" things going on. My 2L summer--who, like many of you it seems, I had hoped would sponsor me--wound up not being a place I liked at all. Go figure.

Hang in there. We'll make it!

[BlueLotus]

Thanks for your thoughtful reply zor. I hope this lunch meeting with the random train attorney yields some results. Unfortunately it is late in the game for applying for fall internships so I can't be choosy. Hopefully my 1L summer employer will offer me a fellowship sponsorship. I am also looking at the immigration place I volunteered for during my spring and winter breaks. I have an informational interview with the executive director of yet another immigration org on August 9. Fingers crossed.

Last week I was soooo excited, radiant and energized to go to work. It's really sad how things have changed since last Friday. 3 more weeks left and I will never have to face that Managing Attorney again. I will still work my ass off at my current internship. I won't let my upset feelings towards that Managing Attorney adversely impact my clients' interests.

[dresden doll]

I'd prefer not to drop internships from my resume, since PI orgs want to see the breadth of public service experience you have (also, if I drop internships, then I would have gaps on my resume, and employers will wonder what I was doing with my life during that period.)

PI employers prefer to see focus. That's something that a resume featuring a long string of internships spamming all sorts of causes doesn't convey. My advice: decide on your narrative and cut out everything that doesn't fit it.

[dresden doll]

I'm sorry that this happened, but it may not be about you - they may have policies in place about how they handle fellows that exclude you, but don't have anything to do with what they think about your work. I know that doesn't make not getting the sponsor any better, but if you can, don't let it make you feel bad about your work there, because it may not be anything to do with that at all. Don't let it shake your confidence.

This, and you can also ask your supervisor for a more detailed performance review. If there is a reason why they rejected you, it's better to know that now because maybe it's something you can work on. Otherwise you might learn it has nothing to do with you. Sponsoring a fellow is actually a ton of work for an organization and some of them just don't want to do it, or maybe like Nony says there is some kind of policy or criteria that excludes you but has nothing to do with your work.

ETA: I also wouldn't read too much into them failing to read the application. Attorneys are busy and if they knew they couldn't take a fellow, they're not going to read it even if it's from the most amazing intern ever.

My take: definitely ask for a more detailed performance review. It's entirely possible you were excluded based on a policy/criteria you didn't fit through no fault of your own, but the attorney's wording ("you would not be a good fit") implies otherwise.

[Holly Golightly]

I can't work for a new org this fall. If I did that, then my one page resume would become two pages and my two page fellowship resume would become three pages, which would look ridiculous. I have like seven fucking unpaid legal internships under my belt, and it would look strange to add an eighth one. I have to either continue working for my current org, or return to intern at one of the orgs that I previously worked at in the same city.

This is the worst reasoning I have ever heard.

I am guessing that you do not spend a lot of time reading Trump statements.

Hmm, fair point. But this is still just wrong for so many reasons.

[Young Marino]

What's the TLS consensus on leaving only public service gigs on your resume even though you may have clerked for a semester at a small firm? Essentially leaving the firm gig off of the resume

[Holly Golightly]

What's the TLS consensus on leaving only public service gigs on your resume even though you may have clerked for a semester at a small firm? Essentially leaving the firm gig off of the resume

What specifically are you applying for, and could the small firm experience be spun as relevant in any way?

[BlueLotus]

I'm sorry that this happened, but it may not be about you - they may have policies in place about how they handle fellows that exclude you, but don't have anything to do with what they think about your work. I know that doesn't make not getting the sponsor any better, but if you can, don't let it make you feel bad about your work there, because it may not be anything to do with that at all. Don't let it shake your confidence.

This, and you can also ask your supervisor for a more detailed performance review. If there is a reason why they rejected you, it's better to know that now because maybe it's something you can work on. Otherwise you might learn it has nothing to do with you. Sponsoring a fellow is actually a ton of work for an organization and some of them just don't want to do it, or maybe like Nony says there is some kind of policy or criteria that excludes you but has nothing to do with your work.

ETA: I also wouldn't read too much into them failing to read the application. Attorneys are busy and if they knew they couldn't take a fellow, they're not going to read it even if it's from the most amazing intern ever.

My take: definitely ask for a more detailed performance review. It's entirely possible you were excluded based on a policy/criteria you didn't fit through no fault of your own, but the attorney's wording ("you would not be a good fit") implies otherwise.

Good idea, however, the Managing Attorney who humiliatingly dinged me for a fellowship without even reading my app within earshot of my coworkers is going on sabbatical very shortly, so unfortunately I will not have time to do a more detailed performance review. She is a pretty loud person so I wish she had fucking closed the door to my office when she decided to break the bad news to me. Now everyone in the office knows that I am a fuck-up/loser, and shit is really awkward.

My immediate supervisor (Senior Staff Attorney) and the other Staff Attorneys have provided overwhelmingly positive feedback regarding my performance. If something was wrong with my work, they should have spoken up--I'd love to hear constructive criticism. The Managing Attorney who dinged me has not observed any of my client intakes/meetings--who is she to say that I am a poor fit? I am not a flawless summer associate by any means and have made minor errors here and there (i.e. mailing a medical records request instead of faxing it) but overall I think that I am competent, ethical and diligent. Oh well. Fail. Probably the first of many fails to come!

[swampman]

Good idea, however, the Managing Attorney who humiliatingly dinged me for a fellowship without even reading my app within earshot of my coworkers is going on sabbatical very shortly, so unfortunately I will not have time to do a more detailed performance review. She is a pretty loud person so I wish she had fucking closed the door to my office when she decided to break the bad news to me. Now everyone in the office knows that I am a fuck-up/loser, and shit is really awkward.

My immediate supervisor (Senior Staff Attorney) and the other Staff Attorneys have provided overwhelmingly positive feedback regarding my performance. If something was wrong with my work, they should have spoken up--I'd love to hear constructive criticism. The Managing Attorney who dinged me has not observed any of my client intakes/meetings--who is she to say that I am a poor fit? I am not a flawless summer associate by any means and have made minor errors here and there (i.e. mailing a medical records request instead of faxing it) but overall I think that I am competent, ethical and diligent. Oh well. Fail. Probably the first of many fails to come!

Not joking or trying to be insulting—I think the therapy comment was spot-on. Being rejected for a fellowship, even in front of coworkers, is not "humiliating." And you said she complimented you, said you were detail-oriented, but that you weren't a good fit. You don't know what that means, because you don't want to ask her, but it's a stretch to jump to "fuck-up/loser." Maybe your school can match you with a counselor to talk things through with?

[zor]

Thanks for your thoughtful reply zor. I hope this lunch meeting with the random train attorney yields some results. Unfortunately it is late in the game for applying for fall internships so I can't be choosy. Hopefully my 1L summer employer will offer me a fellowship sponsorship. I am also looking at the immigration place I volunteered for during my spring and winter breaks. I have an informational interview with the executive director of yet another immigration org on August 9. Fingers crossed.

Last week I was soooo excited, radiant and energized to go to work. It's really sad how things have changed since last Friday. 3 more weeks left and I will never have to face that Managing Attorney again. I will still work my ass off at my current internship. I won't let my upset feelings towards that Managing Attorney adversely impact my clients' interests.

I'm not sure where you are geographically, but if you're near any large urban center it's definitely not too late to apply for fall internships. I got one after the semester already started!

Also, while working for a place is a good jump point for sponsorship, remember you don't HAVE to work there. Many of my friends who won fellowships this year had never worked at their sponsor organizations. I would say it was half and half. You can just apply based on your experience and interests. Personally, I only applied for places I had never worked, but had a good narrative for, and have gotten three different interviews/interested parties.

I know how stressful it is. It'll be okay. Just remember that every lead is just that--a lead, not a certainty--so don't stop looking and applying and reaching out to people just because you think this might be the one. You never know where things may lead, and even sure things can wind up dead ends because of all kinds of reasons beyond your control. Definitely don't let this one supervisor get you down. I had a similar experience last summer (my 2L summer). I was at the org of my dreams. Turns out everyone there was a total jerk to me and I was miserable. Definitely didn't even bother applying to sponsor with them, and since then, nearly every attorney I worked for quit. You just never know what's going on in some places. On the opposite end of the spectrum, one org director who loved me and begged me to apply to sponsor with them (they were not in the city I wanted, though) was fired shortly after. So I could have been hosed. Anyway, since then, I've had MUCH better internship experiences with people who really like and support me. You'll find it, too, and the attorneys you work for where you are now who like you are going to be your contacts. THey may not be able to get you the sponsorship, but they will be really helpful later on, maybe connecting you to someone who can.

Re: small firm experience, agreed that it depends on what you're applying for and how you think you can spin it. I was a paralegal doing complex commercial litigation for four years before law school, and I always include it and spin it as experience with complex litigation--from discovery to trial. I would also include it if they have a good reputation. If you mostly wrote memos or did work that overlaps with your public interest work, you may want to leave it off.

[zor]

Thanks for your thoughtful reply zor. I hope this lunch meeting with the random train attorney yields some results. Unfortunately it is late in the game for applying for fall internships so I can't be choosy. Hopefully my 1L summer employer will offer me a fellowship sponsorship. I am also looking at the immigration place I volunteered for during my spring and winter breaks. I have an informational interview with the executive director of yet another immigration org on August 9. Fingers crossed.

Last week I was soooo excited, radiant and energized to go to work. It's really sad how things have changed since last Friday. 3 more weeks left and I will never have to face that Managing Attorney again. I will still work my ass off at my current internship. I won't let my upset feelings towards that Managing Attorney adversely impact my clients' interests.

I'm not sure where you are geographically, but if you're near any large urban center it's definitely not too late to apply for fall internships. I got one after the semester already started!

Also, while working for a place is a good jump point for sponsorship, remember you don't HAVE to work there. Many of my friends who won fellowships this year had never worked at their sponsor organizations. I would say it was half and half. You can just apply based on your experience and interests. Personally, I only applied for places I had never worked, but had a good narrative for, and have gotten three different interviews/interested parties.

I know how stressful it is. It'll be okay. Just remember that every lead is just that--a lead, not a certainty--so don't stop looking and applying and reaching out to people just because you think this might be the one. You never know where things may lead, and even sure things can wind up dead ends because of all kinds of reasons beyond your control. Definitely don't let this one supervisor get you down. I had a similar experience last summer (my 2L summer). I was at the org of my dreams. Turns out everyone there was a total jerk to me and I was miserable. Definitely didn't even bother applying to sponsor with them, and since then, nearly every attorney I worked for quit. You just never know what's going on in some places. On the opposite end of the spectrum, one org director who loved me and begged me to apply to sponsor with them (they were not in the city I wanted, though) was fired shortly after. So I could have been hosed. Anyway, since then, I've had MUCH better internship experiences with people who really like and support me. You'll find it, too, and the attorneys you work for where you are now who like you are going to be your contacts. THey may not be able to get you the sponsorship, but they will be really helpful later on, maybe connecting you to someone who can.

Re: small firm experience, agreed that it depends on what you're applying for and how you think you can spin it. I was a paralegal doing complex commercial litigation for four years before law school, and I always include it and spin it as experience with complex litigation--from discovery to trial. I would also include it if they have a good reputation. If you mostly wrote memos or did work that overlaps with your public interest work, you may want to leave it off.

[zor]

Ugh sorry, I tried to edit and then delete the duplicate... my bad. Ignore the second post.

[BlueLotus]

Good idea, however, the Managing Attorney who humiliatingly dinged me for a fellowship without even reading my app within earshot of my coworkers is going on sabbatical very shortly, so unfortunately I will not have time to do a more detailed performance review. She is a pretty loud person so I wish she had fucking closed the door to my office when she decided to break the bad news to me. Now everyone in the office knows that I am a fuck-up/loser, and shit is really awkward.

My immediate supervisor (Senior Staff Attorney) and the other Staff Attorneys have provided overwhelmingly positive feedback regarding my performance. If something was wrong with my work, they should have spoken up--I'd love to hear constructive criticism. The Managing Attorney who dinged me has not observed any of my client intakes/meetings--who is she to say that I am a poor fit? I am not a flawless summer associate by any means and have made minor errors here and there (i.e. mailing a medical records request instead of faxing it) but overall I think that I am competent, ethical and diligent. Oh well. Fail. Probably the first of many fails to come!

Not joking or trying to be insulting—I think the therapy comment was spot-on. Being rejected for a fellowship, even in front of coworkers, is not "humiliating." And you said she complimented you, said you were detail-oriented, but that you weren't a good fit. You don't know what that means, because you don't want to ask her, but it's a stretch to jump to "fuck-up/loser." Maybe your school can match you with a counselor to talk things through with?

I do want to ask her what she meant, but she is going on vacation like tomorrow, and won't be back until after the conclusion of the internship.

I feel like a "fuck-up/"loser" given then fact that she returned my application packet to me without even reading it. Shit stings. Oh well. I have an informational interview with a great small firm attorney doing SS disability, so hopefully he has some good leads.

[Young Marino]

What's the TLS consensus on leaving only public service gigs on your resume even though you may have clerked for a semester at a small firm? Essentially leaving the firm gig off of the resume

What specifically are you applying for, and could the small firm experience be spun as relevant in any way?

Mid-sized DA's office. Planning to highlight public service experience.

[Holly Golightly]

What's the TLS consensus on leaving only public service gigs on your resume even though you may have clerked for a semester at a small firm? Essentially leaving the firm gig off of the resume

What specifically are you applying for, and could the small firm experience be spun as relevant in any way?

Mid-sized DA's office. Planning to highlight public service experience.

Leave off unless you were doing criminal work.

[BlueLotus]

Good idea, however, the Managing Attorney who humiliatingly dinged me for a fellowship without even reading my app within earshot of my coworkers is going on sabbatical very shortly, so unfortunately I will not have time to do a more detailed performance review. She is a pretty loud person so I wish she had fucking closed the door to my office when she decided to break the bad news to me. Now everyone in the office knows that I am a fuck-up/loser, and shit is really awkward.

My immediate supervisor (Senior Staff Attorney) and the other Staff Attorneys have provided overwhelmingly positive feedback regarding my performance. If something was wrong with my work, they should have spoken up--I'd love to hear constructive criticism. The Managing Attorney who dinged me has not observed any of my client intakes/meetings--who is she to say that I am a poor fit? I am not a flawless summer associate by any means and have made minor errors here and there (i.e. mailing a medical records request instead of faxing it) but overall I think that I am competent, ethical and diligent. Oh well. Fail. Probably the first of many fails to come!

Not joking or trying to be insulting—I think the therapy comment was spot-on. Being rejected for a fellowship, even in front of coworkers, is not "humiliating." And you said she complimented you, said you were detail-oriented, but that you weren't a good fit. You don't know what that means, because you don't want to ask her, but it's a stretch to jump to "fuck-up/loser." Maybe your school can match you with a counselor to talk things through with?

People, stop telling me to get into therapy. Yes, I realize that my posts make it seem like I have rock-bottom self-esteem, but I am fully in treatment to address that.

I was diagnosed with depression in 2006. I have been prescribed an antidepressant (Zoloft) and and undergo weekly individual and group psychotherapy. It helps, but is not fool-proof--it' s hard to feel good about yourself when your employer thinks your painstaking free labor is worthless. Fuck Boomers and their unpaid internship bullshit!

I really hope that the random train attorney that consoled me can pull some strings for me. I am meeting him Friday morning in his office. Will definitely suit up!

[Nebby]

In the future can we please not fill up this thread with physiological evaluations of posters. Leave that for the lounge.

(I realise I'm the king of shitting up threads but if you actual care about the mental health of a poster, wouldn't a private message be better?)

ETA: this forum can be ruthless, and it becomes hard to differentiate between piling on and actual concern.