Lawyers tell you how to get no offered. Forum

[rickgrimes69]

The people I know who didn't do or got no offered from biglaw are mostly doing gigs lots of people in biglaw would love to exit to. Now, they may never be able to pay their loans back, but I seriously doubt I will be even halfway through mine by the time I exit, so we will be in the same shitty boat.

Uh

Except you paid off half your loans and got several years of Biglaw on your resume

So really not the same boat at all

[IAFG]

The people I know who didn't do or got no offered from biglaw are mostly doing gigs lots of people in biglaw would love to exit to. Now, they may never be able to pay their loans back, but I seriously doubt I will be even halfway through mine by the time I exit, so we will be in the same shitty boat.

Uh

Except you paid off half your loans and got several years of Biglaw on your resume

So really not the same boat at all

With IBR/PAYE/hopelessness of ever paying it off it's not really different.

[rayiner]

I have so many gripes about no-offer culture, I don't know where to start.

1) A lot of the "faux-pas" that figure in no-offer stories are closet classism/racism. I wouldn't know what kind of shoes to wear on a boat because where I come from, boats are something poor people use for fishing. I also don't swim, because in my home country all the bodies of water are full of poisonous snakes. Making fun of people just because they don't know their way around a pool party or boat cruise is just a way to make fun of people who aren't WASPs.

2) Fuck your summer events, and fuck dinging people for not going to them. In big law, you will rarely if ever hang out with your coworkers. You're too goddamn busy, and the last thing you want to do in our precious free time is hang out with coworkers. The associates at those summer events, to the extent they show up at all, are just their to grab some food and booze before going back to their desk to bill.

3) Fuck firms treating no-offered folks like nuclear waste. There's lots of justifiable reasons to no-offer people that shouldn't preclude those people from finding a job with a firm that's a better fit. This would be better for firms as well as for students.

4) Fuck law schools for turning getting no-offered into a "career ruining event." Getting no-offered is a setback, but it wouldn't be nearly as crushing if law schools didn't charge so much tuition. On that note: fuck 0L's for choosing law schools based on who has a better set of animal law courses, because they're part of the tuition problem.

[Anonymous User]

http://ludostories.com/2014/05/14/boat-shoes/

Always enjoy these.

I am a little frustrated by this post. First, the rule "but is it worth RUINING THEIR LIFE over?" is pretty unfair. Take the summer who wildly oversteps their bounds with clients. That guy is a liability. Does his life deserve to be ruined? Well shit I guess not. But that also doesn't mean the firm should have to hire the guy.

Second, not getting an offer out of your summer gig = life ruined? One thing I laugh at myself for now that I work at a firm is my law student mentality about who "deserves" biglaw. Now u would reserve that determination only for the most miserable Tyrranical Midlevel. The people I know who didn't do or got no offered from biglaw are mostly doing gigs lots of people in biglaw would love to exit to. Now, they may never be able to pay their loans back, but I seriously doubt I will be even halfway through mine by the time I exit, so we will be in the same shitty boat.

I cringed when this got posted because I knew you would hate it.

You're lucky all the people you know who got no offered are fine. No offers are devastating. A lot of people bounce back, but there are people whose lives are definitely forever fucked up. I'm one of them. If I'm the only one in the history of law school then feel free to ignore me. But for me personally (and that's all that post was, a personal reflection. There are no 'rules' in it) I hate reading people laughing at no offer stories because those are real people who just made mistakes. Being a liability with clients is on the more extreme end of the spectrum and maybe those people aren't deserving of any sympathy but I wouldn't wish a no offer on my worst enemy.

And it's not about who 'deserves' big law. It's that the system is fucked up.

That said, if you didn't know who I was before reading this then I could see how you wouldn't understand it. This is a position I reached after nearly 2 years of depression and misery and poverty and my life falling apart. The point of the post was it's a lot easier to laugh at someone who fucked up when you've never been through it.

(anon because new account)

[IAFG]

I don't mean to downplay the harrowing part of being no offered and trying to come back from that (or graduating without a job because that's hardly better than having been no offered). Obviously I have tons of sympathy for people in that situation. And not just sympathy. I am frustrated for them. I want the industry to me more welcoming to them. I want schools and classmates TLS and any other conceivable resource to give them better guidance and help them land on their feet. Does the system suck? In a lot of ways it just fucking SUCKS. I do what I can to try to be part of the solution and make it better, whatever little things that might be.

But does it ruin your life? Holy shit if your life was going to be ruined by missing biglaw there are like 2 law schools that would have been an acceptable risk to you. That message does not ring true to me. And if Ludo or anyone else feels that their life has been ruined because of a no offer and the roads to a happy fulfilling life are closed off, I hope and believe they're wrong and that they get better support from everyone around them, stat.

Frankly that goes for people who are in biglaw too, who also feel biglaw and debt and law school and asshole partners have ruined their lives.

[Nebby]

I have so many gripes about no-offer culture, I don't know where to start.

1) A lot of the "faux-pas" that figure in no-offer stories are closet classism/racism. I wouldn't know what kind of shoes to wear on a boat because where I come from, boats are something poor people use for fishing. I also don't swim, because in my home country all the bodies of water are full of poisonous snakes. Making fun of people just because they don't know their way around a pool party or boat cruise is just a way to make fun of people who aren't WASPs.

2) Fuck your summer events, and fuck dinging people for not going to them. In big law, you will rarely if ever hang out with your coworkers. You're too goddamn busy, and the last thing you want to do in our precious free time is hang out with coworkers. The associates at those summer events, to the extent they show up at all, are just their to grab some food and booze before going back to their desk to bill.

My thoughts too!

Other Q: Are there any accounts of students refusing an offer?

[Anonymous User]

I don't mean to downplay the harrowing part of being no offered and trying to come back from that (or graduating without a job because that's hardly better than having been no offered). Obviously I have tons of sympathy for people in that situation. And not just sympathy. I am frustrated for them. I want the industry to me more welcoming to them. I want schools and classmates TLS and any other conceivable resource to give them better guidance and help them land on their feet. Does the system suck? In a lot of ways it just fucking SUCKS. I do what I can to try to be part of the solution and make it better, whatever little things that might be.

But does it ruin your life? Holy shit if your life was going to be ruined by missing biglaw there are like 2 law schools that would have been an acceptable risk to you. That message does not ring true to me. And if Ludo or anyone else feels that their life has been ruined because of a no offer and the roads to a happy fulfilling life are closed off, I hope and believe they're wrong and that they get better support from everyone around them, stat.

Frankly that goes for people who are in biglaw too, who also feel biglaw and debt and law school and asshole partners have ruined their lives.

It's not that my life was ruined by missing biglaw, its specifically that getting no offered made things worse. It made it harder for me to get a job at all. I honestly think things would've turned out better if I had struck out at OCI. Not everyone has that outcome but when it happens, it fucking sucks.

[bjsesq]

3) Fuck firms treating no-offered folks like nuclear waste. There's lots of justifiable reasons to no-offer people that shouldn't preclude those people from finding a job with a firm that's a better fit. This would be better for firms as well as for students.

I'd say this one is the one that smarts the most. After the no-offer, Winston has pretended I do not exist. Even the partner who was my boy. I was shut out.

[rayiner]

3) Fuck firms treating no-offered folks like nuclear waste. There's lots of justifiable reasons to no-offer people that shouldn't preclude those people from finding a job with a firm that's a better fit. This would be better for firms as well as for students.

I'd say this one is the one that smarts the most. After the no-offer, Winston has pretended I do not exist. Even the partner who was my boy. I was shut out.

Another good friend of mine got the same treatment. It really fucked with her head not to be able to get references from people who had said, during the summer, that she had done good work for them.

[bjsesq]

3) Fuck firms treating no-offered folks like nuclear waste. There's lots of justifiable reasons to no-offer people that shouldn't preclude those people from finding a job with a firm that's a better fit. This would be better for firms as well as for students.

I'd say this one is the one that smarts the most. After the no-offer, Winston has pretended I do not exist. Even the partner who was my boy. I was shut out.

Another good friend of mine got the same treatment. It really fucked with her head not to be able to get references from people who had said, during the summer, that she had done good work for them.

Exactly this. The "nuclear" description is really apt. Nobody from the firm will touch me. It's doubly offensive because they spent the entire summer lying to me and painting a rosy picture of the firm's finances to all of us, and they knew it wasn't true. I could have prepared better and looked elsewhere, but I relied on them. Then, when I was no-offered, it was way late in the game and they just wouldn't talk about me to anyone. How in the fuck was I supposed to move on with my life?

[A. Nony Mouse]

I have so many gripes about no-offer culture, I don't know where to start.

1) A lot of the "faux-pas" that figure in no-offer stories are closet classism/racism. I wouldn't know what kind of shoes to wear on a boat because where I come from, boats are something poor people use for fishing. I also don't swim, because in my home country all the bodies of water are full of poisonous snakes. Making fun of people just because they don't know their way around a pool party or boat cruise is just a way to make fun of people who aren't WASPs.

2) Fuck your summer events, and fuck dinging people for not going to them. In big law, you will rarely if ever hang out with your coworkers. You're too goddamn busy, and the last thing you want to do in our precious free time is hang out with coworkers. The associates at those summer events, to the extent they show up at all, are just their to grab some food and booze before going back to their desk to bill.

3) Fuck firms treating no-offered folks like nuclear waste. There's lots of justifiable reasons to no-offer people that shouldn't preclude those people from finding a job with a firm that's a better fit. This would be better for firms as well as for students.

4) Fuck law schools for turning getting no-offered into a "career ruining event." Getting no-offered is a setback, but it wouldn't be nearly as crushing if law schools didn't charge so much tuition. On that note: fuck 0L's for choosing law schools based on who has a better set of animal law courses, because they're part of the tuition problem.

Amen to all this.

[bk1]

I have so many gripes about no-offer culture, I don't know where to start.

1) A lot of the "faux-pas" that figure in no-offer stories are closet classism/racism. I wouldn't know what kind of shoes to wear on a boat because where I come from, boats are something poor people use for fishing. I also don't swim, because in my home country all the bodies of water are full of poisonous snakes. Making fun of people just because they don't know their way around a pool party or boat cruise is just a way to make fun of people who aren't WASPs.

2) Fuck your summer events, and fuck dinging people for not going to them. In big law, you will rarely if ever hang out with your coworkers. You're too goddamn busy, and the last thing you want to do in our precious free time is hang out with coworkers. The associates at those summer events, to the extent they show up at all, are just their to grab some food and booze before going back to their desk to bill.

3) Fuck firms treating no-offered folks like nuclear waste. There's lots of justifiable reasons to no-offer people that shouldn't preclude those people from finding a job with a firm that's a better fit. This would be better for firms as well as for students.

4) Fuck law schools for turning getting no-offered into a "career ruining event." Getting no-offered is a setback, but it wouldn't be nearly as crushing if law schools didn't charge so much tuition. On that note: fuck 0L's for choosing law schools based on who has a better set of animal law courses, because they're part of the tuition problem.

Amen to all this.

[seespotrun]

I get that there are situations where it is probably better for someone who was no-offered that the firm not say anything to prospective employers than to explain why that person was no-offered. But when someone is no-offered for relatively ticky-tack reasons (or because of a firm's financial constraints), that rigid policy is just fucking stupid and, worse, a huge professional hurdle for that person to overcome. It puts everyone that's been no-offered in the same I-loiter-in-women's-bathrooms or I-jumped-in-the-Hudson-River bucket and makes them untouchable.

[09042014]

I have so many gripes about no-offer culture, I don't know where to start.

1) A lot of the "faux-pas" that figure in no-offer stories are closet classism/racism. I wouldn't know what kind of shoes to wear on a boat because where I come from, boats are something poor people use for fishing. I also don't swim, because in my home country all the bodies of water are full of poisonous snakes. Making fun of people just because they don't know their way around a pool party or boat cruise is just a way to make fun of people who aren't WASPs.

2) Fuck your summer events, and fuck dinging people for not going to them. In big law, you will rarely if ever hang out with your coworkers. You're too goddamn busy, and the last thing you want to do in our precious free time is hang out with coworkers. The associates at those summer events, to the extent they show up at all, are just their to grab some food and booze before going back to their desk to bill.

3) Fuck firms treating no-offered folks like nuclear waste. There's lots of justifiable reasons to no-offer people that shouldn't preclude those people from finding a job with a firm that's a better fit. This would be better for firms as well as for students.

4) Fuck law schools for turning getting no-offered into a "career ruining event." Getting no-offered is a setback, but it wouldn't be nearly as crushing if law schools didn't charge so much tuition. On that note: fuck 0L's for choosing law schools based on who has a better set of animal law courses, because they're part of the tuition problem.

Re: 1 - I saw your closet, you had at least 15 boxes on Allen Edmonds shoes

[IAFG]

It's not that my life was ruined by missing biglaw, its specifically that getting no offered made things worse. It made it harder for me to get a job at all. I honestly think things would've turned out better if I had struck out at OCI. Not everyone has that outcome but when it happens, it fucking sucks.

I haven't had to job search with a no offer on my résumé, so I will obviously defer on what that's like, but from what I have seen from 2012/2013 grads, the outcomes are pretty similar no matter the reason the person graduated without an offer.

I understand that the emotional aspect of this is a seriously awful experience. And I am sure it's worse for people who get no offered vs striking out (feeling left behind by their summering cohort, feeling blackballed, less time to reorient yourself, etc). But as for end-of-the-day outcomes, both groups seem to end up with similar gigs (and those outcomes are pretty similar to those of people who exit biglaw early).

As for what you wrote about the nature of no offer stories, and their tendency to grow into tall tales, I think you're right and that it was an insightful post. I just disagree that no offers ruin your life. And if you really feel your life is ruined, I have a therapist I suggest you hire, because that's a distressing additude to have about what's happened.

[bjsesq]

It's not that my life was ruined by missing biglaw, its specifically that getting no offered made things worse. It made it harder for me to get a job at all. I honestly think things would've turned out better if I had struck out at OCI. Not everyone has that outcome but when it happens, it fucking sucks.

I haven't had to job search with a no offer on my résumé, so I will obviously defer on what that's like, but from what I have seen from 2012/2013 grads, the outcomes are pretty similar no matter the reason the person graduated without an offer.

I understand that the emotional aspect of this is a seriously awful experience. And I am sure it's worse for people who get no offered vs striking out (feeling left behind by their summering cohort, feeling blackballed, less time to reorient yourself, etc). But as for end-of-the-day outcomes, both groups seem to end up with similar gigs (and those outcomes are pretty similar to those of people who exit biglaw early).

As for what you wrote about the nature of no offer stories, and their tendency to grow into tall tales, I think you're right and that it was an insightful post. I just disagree that no offers ruin your life. And if you really feel your life is ruined, I have a therapist I suggest you hire, because that's a distressing additude to have about what's happened.

Up until 4 months ago, I would have agreed. When you have nothing, life is driven by what might have been and the constant reminder of your own failures. Every rejection, every radio silence is another brick in the wall of not being good enough. Finally landing something changes things, but man, it is a tough road until you do.

[09042014]

I fully agree with the toxic nature that no offered people are viewed. It's crazy. But part of that is due to the number of offers that do go out. If we had a system where 60% got an offer there wouldn't be stigma. That's how banks do their recruiting. If you weren't part of the 60% Goldman wanted, BOA would still be interested.

I don't fully agree about skipping social events. The firm is trying to evaluate if they want to work with you. If you just huddle in your office and don't meet people, well that is a bad sign. And it's not like they are giving you so much work you can't take two hours off for happy hour or whatever. It shouldn't be auto no offer worthy, but it sends a bad fucking message that you don't want to be part of the organization if you can't make the time.

I also really doubt people get no offered for small social faux pas. I'd imagine 90% of these stories are people just coming up with a reason to justify why the person got no offered. A guy I know who got no offered, had a rumor that it was because he wore a suit to work every day. But honestly, he was a dick to a lot of people and it caught up to him.

It's really shitty that firms won't have partners give recommendations that say "hey we liked him but we didn't have room in his practice area of choice. He'd be a great candidate." Especially when it's financially related. Because even if the financial problems are all over ATL, most people aren't reading it.

[IAFG]

I don't fully agree about skipping social events. The firm is trying to evaluate if they want to work with you. If you just huddle in your office and don't meet people, well that is a bad sign.

Disagree completely. It's a sign you will be the department's favorite tyrannical midlevel. Why would firms try to hire social butterflies. They have no use for that skill set.

[IAFG]

It's not that my life was ruined by missing biglaw, its specifically that getting no offered made things worse. It made it harder for me to get a job at all. I honestly think things would've turned out better if I had struck out at OCI. Not everyone has that outcome but when it happens, it fucking sucks.

I haven't had to job search with a no offer on my résumé, so I will obviously defer on what that's like, but from what I have seen from 2012/2013 grads, the outcomes are pretty similar no matter the reason the person graduated without an offer.

I understand that the emotional aspect of this is a seriously awful experience. And I am sure it's worse for people who get no offered vs striking out (feeling left behind by their summering cohort, feeling blackballed, less time to reorient yourself, etc). But as for end-of-the-day outcomes, both groups seem to end up with similar gigs (and those outcomes are pretty similar to those of people who exit biglaw early).

As for what you wrote about the nature of no offer stories, and their tendency to grow into tall tales, I think you're right and that it was an insightful post. I just disagree that no offers ruin your life. And if you really feel your life is ruined, I have a therapist I suggest you hire, because that's a distressing additude to have about what's happened.

Up until 4 months ago, I would have agreed. When you have nothing, life is driven by what might have been and the constant reminder of your own failures. Every rejection, every radio silence is another brick in the wall of not being good enough. Finally landing something changes things, but man, it is a tough road until you do.

I know you had an awful uphill battle, but you're not just a no offer success story, you're an NU success story.

It's hard to talk about because of how bad it feels for people, but the result isn't a ruined life, and if that's the mental place anyone is in, they need to get support and possibly therapy before the depression compounds the bad situation into an actually ruined life.

[gchatbrah]

I don't fully agree about skipping social events. The firm is trying to evaluate if they want to work with you. If you just huddle in your office and don't meet people, well that is a bad sign.

Disagree completely. It's a sign you will be the department's favorite tyrannical midlevel. Why would firms try to hire social butterflies. They have no use for that skill set.

Regardless of the merit of this evaluation measure, why would anyone skip these events in the first place? Free food, free booze, and social time with summers. I don't get where else anyone thinks they need to be when they're being paid $3100/week to do basically nothing.

[IAFG]

I don't fully agree about skipping social events. The firm is trying to evaluate if they want to work with you. If you just huddle in your office and don't meet people, well that is a bad sign.

Disagree completely. It's a sign you will be the department's favorite tyrannical midlevel. Why would firms try to hire social butterflies. They have no use for that skill set.

Regardless of the merit of this evaluation measure, why would anyone skip these events in the first place? Free food, free booze, and social time with summers. I don't get where else anyone thinks they need to be when they're being paid $3100/week to do basically nothing.

It can be draining. Plus I just don't wanna play softball.

[bjsesq]

I think the one thing we can all agree on: somehow, some way, this is Obama's fucking fault.

[09042014]

I don't fully agree about skipping social events. The firm is trying to evaluate if they want to work with you. If you just huddle in your office and don't meet people, well that is a bad sign.

Disagree completely. It's a sign you will be the department's favorite tyrannical midlevel. Why would firms try to hire social butterflies. They have no use for that skill set.

There is a reason why firms who don't no offer end up with more tyrannical midlevels.

[seespotrun]

Cancel our loans, Obama.

[IAFG]

I don't fully agree about skipping social events. The firm is trying to evaluate if they want to work with you. If you just huddle in your office and don't meet people, well that is a bad sign.

Disagree completely. It's a sign you will be the department's favorite tyrannical midlevel. Why would firms try to hire social butterflies. They have no use for that skill set.

There is a reason why firms who don't no offer end up with more tyrannical midlevels.

Bullshit.