How many 2Ls at a t10 are still jobless? Forum

[09042014]

These "underemployment" stats just cover any legal full time job. Guess what? The vast majority of legal are pure shit.

Comparing schools based on who gets ANY job is stupid.

[Anonymous User]

There are plenty of 3Ls at Columbia that participated in EIP with no jobs. There were on campus interviews in the fall that apparently filled up in seconds. Several of my friends with decent grades and positive demeanors have no jobs or are settling for public interest work that they're not really interested in. A couple people told me our EIP offer rate was around 60%. I don't know if that's true but it also wouldn't surprise me. Anyone think our jobless classmates are advertising it?

Also, in re bottom 10% getting jobs. I was top 25% and only got one job offer through EIP. I know people with awful grades that got multiple V10 offers.

[Anonymous User]

There are plenty of 3Ls at Columbia that participated in EIP with no jobs. There were on campus interviews in the fall that apparently filled up in seconds. Several of my friends with decent grades and positive demeanors have no jobs or are settling for public interest work that they're not really interested in. A couple people told me our EIP offer rate was around 60%. I don't know if that's true but it also wouldn't surprise me. Anyone think our jobless classmates are advertising it?

Also, in re bottom 10% getting jobs. I was top 25% and only got one job offer through EIP. I know people with awful grades that got multiple V10 offers.

It's more like low 80%'s getting offers thru EIP

[Anonymous User]

There are plenty of 3Ls at Columbia that participated in EIP with no jobs. There were on campus interviews in the fall that apparently filled up in seconds. Several of my friends with decent grades and positive demeanors have no jobs or are settling for public interest work that they're not really interested in. A couple people told me our EIP offer rate was around 60%. I don't know if that's true but it also wouldn't surprise me. Anyone think our jobless classmates are advertising it?

Also, in re bottom 10% getting jobs. I was top 25% and only got one job offer through EIP. I know people with awful grades that got multiple V10 offers.

Grades are overrated at Columbia (and probably some others schools as well). They are still important, but I would venture to say they account for 50% of EIP performance, with the other half being a combination of work experience and interview skills. Compare this to, let's say, a T50, where grades are probably closer to 80-90% of EIP performance.

[NYstate]

]

At P, not even close to pre-disaster levels. Lots of 2ls with nothing lined up.

I suppose P is a good gauge for the upper T14. LST sez 3% underemployed. So unless the LST P data is off (or the top 3 should be HYP), I doubt if 3% underemployed is startling.

Penn 2005

Penn 2012

Hard to see much difference. Maybe Penn is a school where lots of people line up good jobs after striking out at OCI, but I doubt it.

You realize that pre-LST numbers are worthless.

NYstate at it again. The 2012 numbers, if anything, are stronger than the 2005 numbers I linked to.[/quote]


Lol. I just meant don't use bad data. The comparison is meaningless. I have no idea how hiring is going at Penn. I know class sizes in New York remain much smaller so somebody, somewhere isn't getting jobs that used to do so. Maybe the Penn people are moving down into firms and clerkship that went to different grads before?

[Anonymous User]

This thread is mostly TL;DR. But here is the breakdown of a V10's Summer 2014 class in NYC:

95 total

3 Yale
0 Stanford
*18 Harvard
----21 out of 95
*17 Columbia
8 NYU
8 Chicago
----54 out of 95
1 Penn
5 Michigan
2 Virginia
----62 out of 95
1 Berkeley
1 Duke
2 Northwestern
1 Cornell
7 Gtown
----74 out of 95
4 Texas

For what it's worth, I had to google which schools were in the t-14 (I forgot 2 of them). This should suggest to paranoid 0Ls that you can can and will move on from paranoia and eventually live a normal life unconstrained by TLS nonsense.

Honestly, these numbers mean almost nothing. Offers would be more interesting.

For example, I know of a V10 firm that made ~10 offers at Virginia and got 3 people going (others turned it down for different markets or other top firms)

Agreed. I'm also at UVA and know that DPW offered at least 10 people and only got 2 people that I know of to go there.

[Nelson]

Agreed. I'm also at UVA and know that DPW offered at least 10 people and only got 2 people that I know of to go there.

Yeah, but who's to say the yield isn't just as bad at Harvard but they make a TON of offers? If that really is Cravath, their yield is probably terrible everywhere.

[Anonymous User]

if you want to work in a market that has only a few firms that hire a few people ONLY from local schools then you better think long and hard about whether you really need to work in that market or not, especially if those local schools are TTT/TTTTs. because otherwise you're spending 3 years and possibly large amounts of money on a degree that gives you a small chance of being a lawyer in one market and no chance of being a lawyer anywhere else.

there's no thinking "long and hard" about anything. my fiance and family are there, so i can't be anywhere else anyway. i'm not going to make 4 people uproot their jobs and lives just because i failed to get a job in that market. (what kind of person does that?)

my earlier point was to remind people in similar situations to consider location and market distribution, and not just rank and money

you had a very high chance of striking out either way. that's like going to chicago, complaining it couldn't get you back to biglaw in portland, and advising people to consider going to lewis and clark if they want that infinitesimal chance at portland biglaw.

[2014]

Agreed. I'm also at UVA and know that DPW offered at least 10 people and only got 2 people that I know of to go there.

Yeah, but who's to say the yield isn't just as bad at Harvard but they make a TON of offers? If that really is Cravath, their yield is probably terrible everywhere.

I'd say w/ 98% confidence that the list is either Cravath or fake. The amount of NYC firms with roughly that many UChi kids is 2, the other being SullCrom which was posted elsewhere.

Agree w/ your point though. If there is no indication that Cravath or whoever did something to botch their yield specifically at one school, it's probably a safe assumption that yields are somewhat correlated with some obvious room for error. If they got 20% at UVA, I'd be stunned if they got like 80% at Harvard.

[Anonymous User]

also i'm pretty sure if you absolutely HAVE to work in Muncie, Indiana and cannot fathom accepting a job in any other town the "TLS mantra" would be "don't go to law school" not "just do NYU bro"

you must be one of those "TLS can never be wrong" people. "just do NYU" is not the same as "unless you want to end up in NYC, T14/T6/whatever does not do much for you and may sometimes hurt your chances of finding a job where you want" (by the way, do you mean NYC? NYU does not hire summer associates.)

For 0L's: all I am saying is the location of your law school in some cases may be even more important than the ranking. contrary to ^ that guy's beliefs, not every market without a T14 school is worthless or in the middle of nowhere (ex: boston, portland, minneapolis seattle, san diego). some markets may only have T20, or T30 schools, but the law firms like their T20/30 schools better and your T6 degree may not be worth more than a T20 or T30 degree in those markets, especially when those T20/T30 schools have alum connections.

i don't think you get it. nobody should go to law school banking on getting biglaw in portland or seattle. going to hys + t14 (while having ties) actually gives you the best shot if you want to end up there. you might have to start off in new york but could possibly lateral there. if you go to uw, you'd be playing with fire. one biglaw firm in seattle hired 1 uw student last year. do you understand the odds of getting biglaw in portland or seattle, from anywhere? in seattle, perkins hired about ~10 summers last year (2013 summer)...dwt hired ~6...K & L had ~7...that's the biggest firms in seattle having a total summer class of 23-25 students. the others had 1 or 2 summers, except dorsey which had 4 2l summers. the entire slots for summers in seattle is less than the slots available at a single new york biglaw firm. these are the odds, and you're competing against a shitload of people from yale to podunk state who all want to live in seattle. the numbers are worse in portland.

[Anonymous User]

Agreed. I'm also at UVA and know that DPW offered at least 10 people and only got 2 people that I know of to go there.

Yeah, but who's to say the yield isn't just as bad at Harvard but they make a TON of offers? If that really is Cravath, their yield is probably terrible everywhere.

I'd say w/ 98% confidence that the list is either Cravath or fake. The amount of NYC firms with roughly that many UChi kids is 2, the other being SullCrom which was posted elsewhere.

Agree w/ your point though. If there is no indication that Cravath or whoever did something to botch their yield specifically at one school, it's probably a safe assumption that yields are somewhat correlated with some obvious room for error. If they got 20% at UVA, I'd be stunned if they got like 80% at Harvard.

Unless H's class was wildly different in '14 than '13 that V10 is either Cravath, Davis Polk, Cleary, or S&C
In 2013 DP offered 63 Harvard students (four in SV) 22 accepted
In 2013 Cravath's H accept/offer percentage was 37%

Edit to clarify. those are class of 2013 so OCI 2012

[Old Gregg]

It's really difficult and mildly, if not extremely, stupid to draw any conclusions from a firm's yield. Law students turn down offers for numerous reasons, most of which have nothing to do with prestige. While there are plenty of 2Ls choosing between Cravath, Davis Polk, S&C, Simpson, etc. many of them end up turning down all such offers for geographic reasons, or they want to avoid that culture altogether, or they want to work at a boutique, or they want to pursue the track down in DC (a la Covington, A&P, WilmerHale), etc. Even in NYC, I know 2Ls who turned down Cravath for significantly lower "ranked" firms in the city.

It's dumb to try to glean anything else from this other than that different people have different preferences.

[Nelson]

It's really difficult and mildly, if not extremely, stupid to draw any conclusions from a firm's yield. Law students turn down offers for numerous reasons, most of which have nothing to do with prestige. While there are plenty of 2Ls choosing between Cravath, Davis Polk, S&C, Simpson, etc. many of them end up turning down all such offers for geographic reasons, or they want to avoid that culture altogether, or they want to work at a boutique, or they want to pursue the track down in DC (a la Covington, A&P, WilmerHale), etc. Even in NYC, I know 2Ls who turned down Cravath for significantly lower "ranked" firms in the city.

It's dumb to try to glean anything else from this other than that different people have different preferences.

Er I don't think anyone's arguing the point you are. Nobody is drawing any conclusions from yield.

[royilae]

This thread is mostly TL;DR. But here is the breakdown of a V10's Summer 2014 class in NYC:

95 total

3 Yale
0 Stanford
*18 Harvard
----21 out of 95
*17 Columbia
8 NYU
8 Chicago
----54 out of 95
1 Penn
5 Michigan
2 Virginia
----62 out of 95
1 Berkeley
1 Duke
2 Northwestern
1 Cornell
7 Gtown
----74 out of 95
4 Texas

For what it's worth, I had to google which schools were in the t-14 (I forgot 2 of them). This should suggest to paranoid 0Ls that you can can and will move on from paranoia and eventually live a normal life unconstrained by TLS nonsense.

You're anonymous. You can say what the firm is. Not that it's hard to figure out.

hey cravath

[objecion]

I work at a law firm and I am hectic but I have literally no idea whether we have shit on the horizon (aka will I be busy 2 months from now).

Just to help you out. That’s one difference between BL and the small law you’re accustom to. Most cases take years. During my SA I worked on a case that began in ’07 and they just wrapped it up a couple weeks ago. Our horizon goes way beyond two months.

[Kikero]

Our horizon goes way beyond two months.

Dewey associate circa early 2012?

[Old Gregg]

Our horizon goes way beyond two months.

Dewey associate circa early 2012?

Sure spells like one.

[rad lulz]

n

[bobtyme]

I work at a law firm and I am hectic but I have literally no idea whether we have shit on the horizon (aka will I be busy 2 months from now).

Just to help you out. That’s one difference between BL and the small law you’re accustom to. Most cases take years. During my SA I worked on a case that began in ’07 and they just wrapped it up a couple weeks ago. Our horizon goes way beyond two months.

I work at a boutique that does the same stuff as the other large firms here (niche area, smaller mkt)

No need for you to help me out

Same here. mid-sized work but doing employment litigation. Large firms get such an inflated status and yet thats all I want. lol

[Anonymous User]

Seems to me that biglaw hiring is way more consolidated in the T6 than ever before.

Summering at a V5 this summer.

YHS: 35% of summer class.
CLS + NYU = 40% of summer class.

In a pretty big class, only a couple people each from V, D, M, NW, etc. Penn does seem to do better than it's USNWR ranking.

T6 is the new T14 now? TLS' new model is gonna be T6 or bust.

Believing stuff like this is how most people i know ended up jobless. For any future 0L's reading this, don't listen to TLS mantra. It is not T14 or bust, or T6 or bust. It is your class standing > your location > your school rank (unless you go to a school ranked under 30).

If you're stuck going to one city because your fiance/gf/bf/family is there, go to the highest ranked school you can get into in the city in which you want to practice. Do NOT go to the highest ranked school you get into if it is 2000 miles away from where you want to work! (Unless you get into Yale, and ONLY if it is Yale.)

Source: I'm the jobless median at T6 from page 4. I came here because they gave me $ and the market where my fiance and family are does not have a T14 school. I believed what I read on TLS and thought T6 > below T14. This turned out to be untrue. The market I wanted averages about 3-4 summer associates per firm and I was literally told by some firms I applied to for 2L SA positions that they "only hire from local schools" and that most of their hiring was done even before my school had started recruiting. In short, late + far away = nothing. Similar things happened to 2 of my classmates, both on law review. Both wanted jobs in secondary market that recruited weeks before our school, and now both are stuck working in NYC when their wives and kids are hundreds of miles away. (Though... when they did apply to NYC in September, they each got ~10 cb's and several offers)

Please note that none of this applies if you want to work in NYC. Everyone here who wanted an NYC job got one.

I agree with most of this advice. I'm at HYS with grades around median. I had lived in a secondary market for ~10 years where I have a significant other and own a home. I mass mailed every NALP-listed firm in the entire state. I got two screeners as a result, neither of which turned into a CB. And this isn't Wyoming that we're talking about; this is a large state with a large secondary market. And I got grilled about my ties in both screeners; they really seemed to prefer people who were born and raised and have family in the state. I got a market-paying job in NYC, so it could have been worse for me, but it's not an ideal situation. You should not assume that HYS/T6/whatever will get you a job in a secondary market even if you believe that you have very strong ties.

[patogordo]

I work at a law firm and I am hectic but I have literally no idea whether we have shit on the horizon (aka will I be busy 2 months from now).

Just to help you out. That’s one difference between BL and the small law you’re accustom to. Most cases take years. During my SA I worked on a case that began in ’07 and they just wrapped it up a couple weeks ago. Our horizon goes way beyond two months.

I work at a boutique that does the same stuff as the other large firms here (niche area, smaller mkt)

No need for you to help me out

you ever seen a MILLION PAGES OF DISCOVERY bro? i don't even count years any more only decades. not like your firm where the insurance company settles 3 days after you call in the STRONGARM.

[bobtyme]

I work at a law firm and I am hectic but I have literally no idea whether we have shit on the horizon (aka will I be busy 2 months from now).

Just to help you out. That’s one difference between BL and the small law you’re accustom to. Most cases take years. During my SA I worked on a case that began in ’07 and they just wrapped it up a couple weeks ago. Our horizon goes way beyond two months.

I work at a boutique that does the same stuff as the other large firms here (niche area, smaller mkt)

No need for you to help me out

you ever seen a MILLION PAGES OF DISCOVERY bro? i don't even count years any more only decades. not like your firm where the insurance company settles 3 days after you call in the STRONGARM.

whats the strongarm?

[patogordo]

whats the strongarm?

[bobtyme]

omg, I can't stop laughing!

[Anonymous User]

Seems to me that biglaw hiring is way more consolidated in the T6 than ever before.

Summering at a V5 this summer.

YHS: 35% of summer class.
CLS + NYU = 40% of summer class.

In a pretty big class, only a couple people each from V, D, M, NW, etc. Penn does seem to do better than it's USNWR ranking.

T6 is the new T14 now? TLS' new model is gonna be T6 or bust.

Believing stuff like this is how most people i know ended up jobless. For any future 0L's reading this, don't listen to TLS mantra. It is not T14 or bust, or T6 or bust. It is your class standing > your location > your school rank (unless you go to a school ranked under 30).

If you're stuck going to one city because your fiance/gf/bf/family is there, go to the highest ranked school you can get into in the city in which you want to practice. Do NOT go to the highest ranked school you get into if it is 2000 miles away from where you want to work! (Unless you get into Yale, and ONLY if it is Yale.)

Source: I'm the jobless median at T6 from page 4. I came here because they gave me $ and the market where my fiance and family are does not have a T14 school. I believed what I read on TLS and thought T6 > below T14. This turned out to be untrue. The market I wanted averages about 3-4 summer associates per firm and I was literally told by some firms I applied to for 2L SA positions that they "only hire from local schools" and that most of their hiring was done even before my school had started recruiting. In short, late + far away = nothing. Similar things happened to 2 of my classmates, both on law review. Both wanted jobs in secondary market that recruited weeks before our school, and now both are stuck working in NYC when their wives and kids are hundreds of miles away. (Though... when they did apply to NYC in September, they each got ~10 cb's and several offers)

Please note that none of this applies if you want to work in NYC. Everyone here who wanted an NYC job got one.

I agree with most of this advice. I'm at HYS with grades around median. I had lived in a secondary market for ~10 years where I have a significant other and own a home. I mass mailed every NALP-listed firm in the entire state. I got two screeners as a result, neither of which turned into a CB. And this isn't Wyoming that we're talking about; this is a large state with a large secondary market. And I got grilled about my ties in both screeners; they really seemed to prefer people who were born and raised and have family in the state. I got a market-paying job in NYC, so it could have been worse for me, but it's not an ideal situation. You should not assume that HYS/T6/whatever will get you a job in a secondary market even if you believe that you have very strong ties.

As long as we are just posting our experiences mine is the opposite. Turned down getting paid from the T50 near my home market (think Orlando/Birmingham/Kansas City/Baton Rouge/Sacramento) to go to HYS and have gotten wild interest from my home market including an offer from an awesome firm before I showed them my grades. The partner said, "I mean give them to us, but we aren't gonna know what they mean anyway, and honestly, some firms may say they care about your grades but they really don't." Full Disclosure. I was aggressive and early with reaching out, have decent work experience, and think I'm a fairly strong interviewer.

Not saying my experience is any more representative than those posted above me, just adding another data point.