Milbank/Davis Polk/Cravath Scale: NYC to 215-415k Forum

[Anonymous User]

Over/Under is page 100 in this thread before the first V10 match/raise

[Anonymous User]

People are being dumb here; DPW is clearly just trying to flex/slow the pace of salary growth: firms like Cooley matching makes all respectable firms matching inevitable. Tech firms like Goodwin and Cooley are eating the V10s lunch in terms of associate talent. I could easily see this going on for another month, but we're all going to get trued up. Could potentially suck for laterals if their firms don't match before they leave though.

I spotted a Goodwin associate.

Cooley >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Goodwin in terms of associate talent.

What does this even mean?

I’ve seen many associates leave V10 to go to Cooley (and Fenwick). I haven’t seen many leave to go to Goodwin. As someone else mentioned before, Goodwin (outside of Boston) isn’t competing for the same talent as a V10.

Why does it matter? There is nothing special about working as an associate at the vast majority of V10 firms. What is so special about spending 3 years billing 2,500 at Kirkland/Skadden in order to lateral to Fenwick or Cooley?

[Anonymous User]

Although still almost certain that everyone matches, each day that goes by does make that outcome ever-so-marginally less likely to occur. Bayesian updating and all that.

Don't say failure is unthinkable. CravaTTTh paying below DLA Piper used to be unthinkable too.

[Anonymous User]

I'm at Winston and can't believe I'm making more than V10 attorneys. I'm sure firm leadership is wondering if they matched too quickly.

Winston was one of the only firms to not make it retroactive to Jan 1 so I'm sure they wished they held off for even longer to save a bit more.

Our fiscal year starts on 2/1, so they had a pretty good built-in excuse to make it effective as of then (rolling it into our annual raise).

Buried lede here is that Winston apparently starts class years a month late? So they are actually below market. For a midlevel this is a couple grand difference.

In theory, maybe. But in reality, the Midlevel who leaves after bonus at a normal firm will leave in December/January, and the Winston associate will leave February/March making up for a majority of the difference.

But if they don't leave that's a career of making about 2k less per year. Below market.

I'm at Winston but not the other poster at Winston and this is a good point that I hadn't thought of before. They also routinely point to this Feb 1 date as a way to do pretty bad things like delaying that new associate start last year all the way until February when most firms were delayed but still starting Nov/Dec or Jan at the latest.

[Anonymous User]

Is it not possible that there is a practical reason for a V10 to wait for the market to settle before re-raising? For example, once they match employees will expect a bonus compensating the raise for the work already performed since the beginning of the year. If they match now, provide the raise, then another firm re-raises, employees will want that compensated for too which makes the process unnecessarily more complicated than just waiting for the market to settle and doing everything at once. Just playing devils advocate here….during my OCI interview multiple equity partners told me that with my work ethic I had a good chance of making EP and should strive for it. So I am not quick to assume that all partners are dumb enough to not appreciate the fact that without hard working associates, the firm would fail. (This is at a firm that according to this site has a bad reputation for over worked and under appreciated employees)

[Anonymous User]

Is it not possible that there is a practical reason for a V10 to wait for the market to settle before re-raising? For example, once they match employees will expect a bonus compensating the raise for the work already performed since the beginning of the year. If they match now, provide the raise, then another firm re-raises, employees will want that compensated for too which makes the process unnecessarily more complicated than just waiting for the market to settle and doing everything at once. Just playing devils advocate here….during my OCI interview multiple equity partners told me that with my work ethic I had a good chance of making EP and should strive for it. So I am not quick to assume that all partners are dumb enough to not appreciate the fact that without hard working associates, the firm would fail. (This is at a firm that apparently according to this site has a bad reputation for overworked and under appreciated employees)

[Anonymous User]

Just playing devils advocate here….during my OCI interview multiple equity partners told me that with my work ethic I had a good chance of making EP and should strive for it. So I am not quick to assume that all partners are dumb enough to not appreciate the fact that without hard working associates, the firm would fail. (This is at a firm that according to this site has a bad reputation for over worked and under appreciated employees)

This is copypasta right

[Anonymous User]

Just playing devils advocate here….during my OCI interview multiple equity partners told me that with my work ethic I had a good chance of making EP and should strive for it. So I am not quick to assume that all partners are dumb enough to not appreciate the fact that without hard working associates, the firm would fail. (This is at a firm that according to this site has a bad reputation for over worked and under appreciated employees)

This is copypasta right

No. As for the follow up comment being the same I went to edit my original comment and realized I had accidentally made a new one

[Anonymous User]

Is it not possible that there is a practical reason for a V10 to wait for the market to settle before re-raising? For example, once they match employees will expect a bonus compensating the raise for the work already performed since the beginning of the year. If they match now, provide the raise, then another firm re-raises, employees will want that compensated for too which makes the process unnecessarily more complicated than just waiting for the market to settle and doing everything at once. Just playing devils advocate here….during my OCI interview multiple equity partners told me that with my work ethic I had a good chance of making EP and should strive for it. So I am not quick to assume that all partners are dumb enough to not appreciate the fact that without hard working associates, the firm would fail. (This is at a firm that according to this site has a bad reputation for over worked and under appreciated employees)

Lmao

[Anonymous User]

Is it not possible that there is a practical reason for a V10 to wait for the market to settle before re-raising? For example, once they match employees will expect a bonus compensating the raise for the work already performed since the beginning of the year. If they match now, provide the raise, then another firm re-raises, employees will want that compensated for too which makes the process unnecessarily more complicated than just waiting for the market to settle and doing everything at once. Just playing devils advocate here….during my OCI interview multiple equity partners told me that with my work ethic I had a good chance of making EP and should strive for it. So I am not quick to assume that all partners are dumb enough to not appreciate the fact that without hard working associates, the firm would fail. (This is at a firm that according to this site has a bad reputation for over worked and under appreciated employees)

Lmao

Special kind of gullible, this one.

[Anonymous User]

Is it not possible that there is a practical reason for a V10 to wait for the market to settle before re-raising? For example, once they match employees will expect a bonus compensating the raise for the work already performed since the beginning of the year. If they match now, provide the raise, then another firm re-raises, employees will want that compensated for too which makes the process unnecessarily more complicated than just waiting for the market to settle and doing everything at once. Just playing devils advocate here….during my OCI interview multiple equity partners told me that with my work ethic I had a good chance of making EP and should strive for it. So I am not quick to assume that all partners are dumb enough to not appreciate the fact that without hard working associates, the firm would fail. (This is at a firm that according to this site has a bad reputation for over worked and under appreciated employees)

Lmao

Special kind of gullible, this one.

Most of us are suckers but agree that one’s pretty bad.

[Anonymous User]

Deleted due to mispost

[Anonymous User]

I think it looks like DPW was planning to announce bonuses in March and decided to wait to match until then to announce bonuses as planned. Likely now going to be match+bonus in March.

That's my guess anyways.

[Anonymous User]

People are being dumb here; DPW is clearly just trying to flex/slow the pace of salary growth: firms like Cooley matching makes all respectable firms matching inevitable. Tech firms like Goodwin and Cooley are eating the V10s lunch in terms of associate talent. I could easily see this going on for another month, but we're all going to get trued up. Could potentially suck for laterals if their firms don't match before they leave though.

I spotted a Goodwin associate.

Cooley >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Goodwin in terms of associate talent.

What does this even mean?

OP here: sadly I'm not prestigious enough to work for Cooley or Goodwin; I work for one of Fenwick, WSGR and Gunderson.

I'd take any of Fenwick/WSGR/Gund over Goodwin NY. Goodwin NY was the bottom of the barrel at my OCI with some of the most forgiving grade distributions.

This is true about Goodwin NY at my t14. However, the CA offices are legit for people who want CA, perhaps more so than Gunderson.

[Anonymous User]

Not sure if I missed this somewhere between the copious off-topic posts, but didn't Brewer raise to 235k? Were they always above market? That's $20k more than Milbank, and a colossal $30k higher than DPW bros

[Anonymous User]

Is it not possible that there is a practical reason for a V10 to wait for the market to settle before re-raising? For example, once they match employees will expect a bonus compensating the raise for the work already performed since the beginning of the year. If they match now, provide the raise, then another firm re-raises, employees will want that compensated for too which makes the process unnecessarily more complicated than just waiting for the market to settle and doing everything at once. Just playing devils advocate here….during my OCI interview multiple equity partners told me that with my work ethic I had a good chance of making EP and should strive for it. So I am not quick to assume that all partners are dumb enough to not appreciate the fact that without hard working associates, the firm would fail. (This is at a firm that according to this site has a bad reputation for over worked and under appreciated employees)

Lmao

Special kind of gullible, this one.

Most of us are suckers but agree that one’s pretty bad.

Don't be so quick to judge. When I was a summer, I did a research project for an equity partner and he was quite impressed with my Bluebooking skills, so he started pulling me in on more projects and I became his go-to associate once I started at the firm. After my first year, he told me that if I kept up my work ethic, I'd be on track for equity around my 6th or 7th year. I'm a 9th year and of counsel currently, but that largely is my fault (e.g., I had to drop out of a deal right around closing to have my appendix removed unexpectedly, I took a Friday afternoon off two years ago for my wedding (though, to argue for myself, I was back in the office Sunday morning)). He told me in my most recent review that if I keep my nose to the grindstone and put in 2-3 more 2300+ years, I've got a great shot at making the jump to nonequity (with equity following a few years after that.

If your work gets noticed early enough by the right partner, it's definitely possible that they can predict that level of success, even at the OCI stage.

[Anonymous User]

Is it not possible that there is a practical reason for a V10 to wait for the market to settle before re-raising? For example, once they match employees will expect a bonus compensating the raise for the work already performed since the beginning of the year. If they match now, provide the raise, then another firm re-raises, employees will want that compensated for too which makes the process unnecessarily more complicated than just waiting for the market to settle and doing everything at once. Just playing devils advocate here….during my OCI interview multiple equity partners told me that with my work ethic I had a good chance of making EP and should strive for it. So I am not quick to assume that all partners are dumb enough to not appreciate the fact that without hard working associates, the firm would fail. (This is at a firm that according to this site has a bad reputation for over worked and under appreciated employees)

Lmao

Special kind of gullible, this one.

Most of us are suckers but agree that one’s pretty bad.

My first reply did not seem to go through so I am going to try again. I have the mentality that trying my best and working as if something is possible has always been intrinsically rewarding, and has always worked for me time and time again. Hard work and strategizing makes my life meaningful and exciting regardless of the outcome. I do wonder if your pessimistic mentality as well as knee-jerk urge to put other people down has served you well in life.

[Anonymous User]

Is it not possible that there is a practical reason for a V10 to wait for the market to settle before re-raising? For example, once they match employees will expect a bonus compensating the raise for the work already performed since the beginning of the year. If they match now, provide the raise, then another firm re-raises, employees will want that compensated for too which makes the process unnecessarily more complicated than just waiting for the market to settle and doing everything at once. Just playing devils advocate here….during my OCI interview multiple equity partners told me that with my work ethic I had a good chance of making EP and should strive for it. So I am not quick to assume that all partners are dumb enough to not appreciate the fact that without hard working associates, the firm would fail. (This is at a firm that according to this site has a bad reputation for over worked and under appreciated employees)

Lmao

Special kind of gullible, this one.

Most of us are suckers but agree that one’s pretty bad.

Don't be so quick to judge. When I was a summer, I did a research project for an equity partner and he was quite impressed with my Bluebooking skills, so he started pulling me in on more projects and I became his go-to associate once I started at the firm. After my first year, he told me that if I kept up my work ethic, I'd be on track for equity around my 6th or 7th year. I'm a 9th year and of counsel currently, but that largely is my fault (e.g., I had to drop out of a deal right around closing to have my appendix removed unexpectedly, I took a Friday afternoon off two years ago for my wedding (though, to argue for myself, I was back in the office Sunday morning)). He told me in my most recent review that if I keep my nose to the grindstone and put in 2-3 more 2300+ years, I've got a great shot at making the jump to nonequity (with equity following a few years after that.

If your work gets noticed early enough by the right partner, it's definitely possible that they can predict that level of success, even at the OCI stage.

I can’t even tell if this person is trolling lol

[Wanderingdrock]

Is it not possible that there is a practical reason for a V10 to wait for the market to settle before re-raising? For example, once they match employees will expect a bonus compensating the raise for the work already performed since the beginning of the year. If they match now, provide the raise, then another firm re-raises, employees will want that compensated for too which makes the process unnecessarily more complicated than just waiting for the market to settle and doing everything at once. Just playing devils advocate here….during my OCI interview multiple equity partners told me that with my work ethic I had a good chance of making EP and should strive for it. So I am not quick to assume that all partners are dumb enough to not appreciate the fact that without hard working associates, the firm would fail. (This is at a firm that according to this site has a bad reputation for over worked and under appreciated employees)

Lmao

Special kind of gullible, this one.

Most of us are suckers but agree that one’s pretty bad.

Don't be so quick to judge. When I was a summer, I did a research project for an equity partner and he was quite impressed with my Bluebooking skills, so he started pulling me in on more projects and I became his go-to associate once I started at the firm. After my first year, he told me that if I kept up my work ethic, I'd be on track for equity around my 6th or 7th year. I'm a 9th year and of counsel currently, but that largely is my fault (e.g., I had to drop out of a deal right around closing to have my appendix removed unexpectedly, I took a Friday afternoon off two years ago for my wedding (though, to argue for myself, I was back in the office Sunday morning)). He told me in my most recent review that if I keep my nose to the grindstone and put in 2-3 more 2300+ years, I've got a great shot at making the jump to nonequity (with equity following a few years after that.

If your work gets noticed early enough by the right partner, it's definitely possible that they can predict that level of success, even at the OCI stage.

Just to put this in perspective - and sorry if this comes off as mean, but come the fuck on - we have two people who aren't partners (one of whom was supposed to make it three years ago) telling us how great a shot we've got of making partner based on representations partners made to them.

I am really, really sorry if this hurts anybody's feelings but to say that any summer or first year has a "good" shot at making equity partner (as the first poster said) is just objectively a lie.

EDIT: And yeah, if this second post was a troll, kudos.

[Anonymous User]

Lol @ people making fun of OP for being gullible, and then not realizing the 9th year post was a shitpost.

Can we get back on topic?

Ditto the Brewer post...

[Anonymous User]

Is it not possible that there is a practical reason for a V10 to wait for the market to settle before re-raising? For example, once they match employees will expect a bonus compensating the raise for the work already performed since the beginning of the year. If they match now, provide the raise, then another firm re-raises, employees will want that compensated for too which makes the process unnecessarily more complicated than just waiting for the market to settle and doing everything at once. Just playing devils advocate here….during my OCI interview multiple equity partners told me that with my work ethic I had a good chance of making EP and should strive for it. So I am not quick to assume that all partners are dumb enough to not appreciate the fact that without hard working associates, the firm would fail. (This is at a firm that according to this site has a bad reputation for over worked and under appreciated employees)

Lmao

Special kind of gullible, this one.

Most of us are suckers but agree that one’s pretty bad.

Don't be so quick to judge. When I was a summer, I did a research project for an equity partner and he was quite impressed with my Bluebooking skills, so he started pulling me in on more projects and I became his go-to associate once I started at the firm. After my first year, he told me that if I kept up my work ethic, I'd be on track for equity around my 6th or 7th year. I'm a 9th year and of counsel currently, but that largely is my fault (e.g., I had to drop out of a deal right around closing to have my appendix removed unexpectedly, I took a Friday afternoon off two years ago for my wedding (though, to argue for myself, I was back in the office Sunday morning)). He told me in my most recent review that if I keep my nose to the grindstone and put in 2-3 more 2300+ years, I've got a great shot at making the jump to nonequity (with equity following a few years after that.

If your work gets noticed early enough by the right partner, it's definitely possible that they can predict that level of success, even at the OCI stage.

Just to put this in perspective - and sorry if this comes off as mean, but come the fuck on - we have two people who aren't partners (one of whom was supposed to make it three years ago) telling us how great a shot we've got of making partner based on representations partners made to them.

I am really, really sorry if this hurts anybody's feelings but to say that any summer or first year has a "good" shot at making equity partner (as the first poster said) is just objectively a lie.

EDIT: And yeah, if this second post was a troll, kudos.

That post is clearly a troll

[nordicsair]

Is there a dark universe where firms are going to use the implicit promise of a true-up as any even more grim version of a retention bonus? As in "no one will leave until they get all of that 2022 back pay". And the hold gets stronger as the year goes on...

[TigerIsBack]

Is there a dark universe where firms are going to use the implicit promise of a true-up as any even more grim version of a retention bonus? As in "no one will leave until they get all of that 2022 back pay". And the hold gets stronger as the year goes on...

Doubtful. That's like $10k pre-tax by the time we hit June. Pretty easy to makeup $10k in the form of a signing bonus (plus the immediate pay increase by moving to your new firm because if by June your firm hasn't matched Milbank, there's a pretty good chance they aren't planning to).

[Anonymous User]

Is it not possible that there is a practical reason for a V10 to wait for the market to settle before re-raising? For example, once they match employees will expect a bonus compensating the raise for the work already performed since the beginning of the year. If they match now, provide the raise, then another firm re-raises, employees will want that compensated for too which makes the process unnecessarily more complicated than just waiting for the market to settle and doing everything at once. Just playing devils advocate here….during my OCI interview multiple equity partners told me that with my work ethic I had a good chance of making EP and should strive for it. So I am not quick to assume that all partners are dumb enough to not appreciate the fact that without hard working associates, the firm would fail. (This is at a firm that according to this site has a bad reputation for over worked and under appreciated employees)

Lmao

Special kind of gullible, this one.

Most of us are suckers but agree that one’s pretty bad.

My first reply did not seem to go through so I am going to try again. I have the mentality that trying my best and working as if something is possible has always been intrinsically rewarding, and has always worked for me time and time again. Hard work and strategizing makes my life meaningful and exciting regardless of the outcome. I do wonder if your pessimistic mentality as well as knee-jerk urge to put other people down has served you well in life.

You missed the entire point. Agreed working towards a goal is rewarding and can benefit you in life, regardless of outcome. That's pretty basic psych.

What we are all laughing at is the notion that the partners you interviewed with were giving you anything but lip service. Them saying that is to get you to accept a job if offered, it isn't indicative of the high esteem that they hold budding 2Ls in. Partners by and large look at juniors as profit making serfs and whatever they told you at OCI was a sales job, nothing more nothing less.

[Anonymous User]

Is there a dark universe where firms are going to use the implicit promise of a true-up as any even more grim version of a retention bonus? As in "no one will leave until they get all of that 2022 back pay". And the hold gets stronger as the year goes on...

Doubtful. That's like $10k pre-tax by the time we hit June. Pretty easy to makeup $10k in the form of a signing bonus (plus the immediate pay increase by moving to your new firm because if by June your firm hasn't matched Milbank, there's a pretty good chance they aren't planning to).

Possible middle ground scenario (at least for cheaper firms, not sure this explains V10s sucking right now): Lots of associates leave in February-March after year-end bonuses are paid out. Bitter partners are holding off on the back-pay of the raises until after those ingrates have left.

Though of course that doesn't really explain the lack of announcement - you can always announce and say back-pay will be included in April paycheck. I think a couple firms have done this already.