Summer Associate Class of 2016 Forum

[lowdmouse]

Presuming you have an offer, skipping OCI is a bad idea even if you like your firm. It's good to know what's out there, even if just to confirm that your firm is the right fit.

And if you don't have an offer yet, lol.

If you feel like your firm is the right fit, how are screeners and callbacks at different firms going to convince you otherwise? Spending two to three months at a firm is a lot better gauge of fit than spending a few hours with only some of a different firm's attorneys, and I would rather go with a known quantity than an unknown one. This, of course, assumes other aspects (type and quality of work, pay, location) are held constant/also desirable

Bc kool aid

Not saying the grass-is-greener complex isn't a concern. But I mean, come on. How can you truly know "this is it" based on your couple 1L screeners and a few "chill bros" giving you work all summer?

I totally understand what you mean. I guess where I'm still confused is how screeners and callbacks are any more illuminating. Most rising 2Ls have to decide "this is it" on much less information than 1L SAs with offers

Very true but still not a reason to not do OCI.

What is a reason to do OCI?

Because some information is better than no information.

You can always go back to your 1L firm after OCI (presuming you get the offer), so you aren't giving anything up. Of course you know more about the firm you spent 3 months at than you will after a screener and a call back elsewhere, but (1) don't kid yourself about actually "knowing" your current firm, and (2) right now you know nothing about those other firms, and you have the chance to learn something at no cost.

[A. Nony Mouse]

What is a reason to do OCI?

More options are always better than fewer options.

[Anonymous User]

whats this about firms giving SA's "fake/make" work?

since ive been at my firm i've had to draft a bunch of provisional patents, do a bunch of CAD/adobe illustrating to draw figures for said patents, interview inventors, perfect securities interests via UCC financing forms, draft memos for technology investment consultations, etc

i know none of this was "fake" work bc usually my sup. partner would take my work, skim it and maybe revise it a little and then hand it off to clients/top partners while taking all the credit

[Avian]

whats this about firms giving SA's "fake/make" work?

since ive been at my firm i've had to draft a bunch of provisional patents, do a bunch of CAD/adobe illustrating to draw figures for said patents, interview inventors, perfect securities interests via UCC financing forms, draft memos for technology investment consultations, etc

i know none of this was "fake" work bc usually my sup. partner would take my work, skim it and maybe revise it a little and then hand it off to clients/top partners while taking all the credit

It definitely varies. People doing patent prosecution tend to do real work from what I've heard since it's so specialized and in demand. I had a variety my summer. One assignment was a make-work memo that was probably one of those, "I wonder if" random thoughts the partner had but was not actually necessary for the matter. But I sent some other things directly to clients or a memo was actually used and relied on.

[El Pollito]

whats this about firms giving SA's "fake/make" work?

since ive been at my firm i've had to draft a bunch of provisional patents, do a bunch of CAD/adobe illustrating to draw figures for said patents, interview inventors, perfect securities interests via UCC financing forms, draft memos for technology investment consultations, etc

i know none of this was "fake" work bc usually my sup. partner would take my work, skim it and maybe revise it a little and then hand it off to clients/top partners while taking all the credit

yeah i'm sure you sincerely don't get why your situation is unusual

[cron1834]

whats this about firms giving SA's "fake/make" work?

since ive been at my firm i've had to draft a bunch of provisional patents, do a bunch of CAD/adobe illustrating to draw figures for said patents, interview inventors, perfect securities interests via UCC financing forms, draft memos for technology investment consultations, etc

i know none of this was "fake" work bc usually my sup. partner would take my work, skim it and maybe revise it a little and then hand it off to clients/top partners while taking all the credit

Would you like a cookie?

[SplitMyPants]

What is a reason to do OCI?

More options are always better than fewer options.

This. And if you can't see the pragmatic reasons in terms of choosing a firm, there are over 9,000 reasons to do OCI and try to get an extra three weeks of pay by splitting between a new firm and your 1L firm.

[pancakes3]

not a patent bro but making you do CAD sounds like make-work. so does the "etc."

to me, anything not immediately usable is make-work, so pretty much all non-lit research memos are make-work on some level. even some lit ones where someone's trying to come up with an alternative theory and we SAs get sent on a wild goose chase, only to go back hat in hand - "sorry man, case law just doesn't bear that out. silent at best."

[TheGoat18]

I'm a little curious as to what you mean by "this" job market. BigLaw hiring is way up, the S&P and DOW are at record highs and law firms just raised salaries lol. I agree with your advice to the other guy, as a 1L SA myself I registered for OCI because I don't technically have an offer yet, even though I've been told by everyone I've come in contact with not to worry, but if this is a bad market for legal hiring, what does a good one look like?

You're transferring to Yale, right? Yeah you have nothing to worry about. Other people though do. People strike out with 35+ screeners still. Even Harvard people sometimes strike out.

Yeah, I'm aware, i'm not trying to say that we are living in pre-reccession times, or that everyone who wants a BigLaw job gets one. My only contention is that legal hiring is up and the economy is in pretty good shape, even if it slowed down at the start of this year. I understand that cyncism is a reasonable response to 2009/Lathaming/the 80% of law schools that are scams but as some point refusing to look at any positives makes people just as blind as people who think they're going to go to American and end up at Skadden DC. We live in okay times right now. That could change at any moment, and there are still plenty of people from top schools who slip through the cracks. But overall, things are in pretty good shape.

[pancakes3]

I'm a little curious as to what you mean by "this" job market. BigLaw hiring is way up, the S&P and DOW are at record highs and law firms just raised salaries lol. I agree with your advice to the other guy, as a 1L SA myself I registered for OCI because I don't technically have an offer yet, even though I've been told by everyone I've come in contact with not to worry, but if this is a bad market for legal hiring, what does a good one look like?

You're transferring to Yale, right? Yeah you have nothing to worry about. Other people though do. People strike out with 35+ screeners still. Even Harvard people sometimes strike out.

Yeah, I'm aware, i'm not trying to say that we are living in pre-reccession times, or that everyone who wants a BigLaw job gets one. My only contention is that legal hiring is up and the economy is in pretty good shape, even if it slowed down at the start of this year. I understand that cyncism is a reasonable response to 2009/Lathaming/the 80% of law schools that are scams but as some point refusing to look at any positives makes people just as blind as people who think they're going to go to American and end up at Skadden DC. We live in okay times right now. That could change at any moment, and there are still plenty of people from top schools who slip through the cracks. But overall, things are in pretty good shape.

it comes off as you saying "it's a pretty good time to be me right now"

[TheGoat18]

Alright well my bad. Let me rephrase. In general - although plenty of exceptions exist - it's a pretty good time to be a T14 law student right now because legal hiring is steady, the whole country just went to 180, and due to decreased applications students with stats that wouldn't have been competitive at T14 schools in 2010 are now getting substantial scholarships.

[Bluem_11]

whats this about firms giving SA's "fake/make" work?

since ive been at my firm i've had to draft a bunch of provisional patents, do a bunch of CAD/adobe illustrating to draw figures for said patents, interview inventors, perfect securities interests via UCC financing forms, draft memos for technology investment consultations, etc

i know none of this was "fake" work bc usually my sup. partner would take my work, skim it and maybe revise it a little and then hand it off to clients/top partners while taking all the credit

You have to know there's a difference between IP and non-IP particularly with prosecution. Most IP summers I've worked with draft specs or responses to the patent office or even full blown applications with supervision. If you're technically trained that's doable. The equivalent is handing off to a SA the ability to run a hearing, or advise a client on a lit strategy. That ain't happening.

[barkschool]

The new humble brag is how "real" your work is.

SA 2016 DRAMA CONTINUES.

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

Alright well my bad. Let me rephrase. In general - although plenty of exceptions exist - it's a pretty good time to be a T14 law student right now because legal hiring is steady, the whole country just went to 180, and due to decreased applications students with stats that wouldn't have been competitive at T14 schools in 2010 are now getting substantial scholarships.

"Things are better than they were before" != "Things are good"

[soj]

.

[Calvin Murphy]

a friend of mine had a 1L SA. his 1L summer was a smashing success. he was in love with the firm and the people he worked with, and the people he worked with loved him back. although the firm would have permitted him to split his second summer with another firm or even just do a touchback (i.e. spend just a couple weeks at the 1L firm at the end of the summer, allowing him to fully participate in another firm's summer program), he decided to forgo OCI and spend his entire 2L summer at the same firm. don't laugh, a lot of 1L summers do the same thing, saying "idk about working at a firm, but if i had to, i can't imagine doing it anywhere else!" and "ugh oci just seems stressful and why should i waste everyone's time when i KNOW i wanna return to my 1L firm?"

this time he wasn't so lucky with the attorneys he was assigned to work with. he made a mistake on an assignment and a partner wrote a scathing review. the folks he worked with in his first summer either were no longer around, didn't care, or didn't have enough sway to balance out the bad review, and the firm didn't give him a full-time associate position.

another friend also had a very enjoyable 1L SA experience, but it wasn't until his second summer, which he split with another firm, that he realized that his 1L summer firm just wasn't the right fit. that second summer gave him additional insight about the 1L firm's office politics, workflow, turnover, and other issues that he hadn't really even thought of as a 1L, when all he knew was that 1L firm and he was just grateful to be there anyway. it all worked out, though, because he received offers from both firms and he declined the one from his 1L firm.

I think this post kind of gets at it...but I want to reiterate that you can't be sure that the things you like about your firm are the things that actually attach to that particular firm's culture. Maybe the low face time requirement you love so much is actually only unique to the five people you worked with this summer and they all leave for a different firm in November. Maybe the practice group you love working for has their three biggest matters settle two weeks before your start date and suddenly the firm is throwing first years into a practice group you're not so crazy about. The biggest surprise for me was seeing what the turnover actually looked like when you know the people personally. I think the stat for most big firms is 50% are gone by year 3 or something like that. Even at firms with less turnover, you end up surprised at how all of your favorite people leave for somewhere else before your actual start date.

[Anonymous User]

a friend of mine had a 1L SA. his 1L summer was a smashing success. he was in love with the firm and the people he worked with, and the people he worked with loved him back. although the firm would have permitted him to split his second summer with another firm or even just do a touchback (i.e. spend just a couple weeks at the 1L firm at the end of the summer, allowing him to fully participate in another firm's summer program), he decided to forgo OCI and spend his entire 2L summer at the same firm. don't laugh, a lot of 1L summers do the same thing, saying "idk about working at a firm, but if i had to, i can't imagine doing it anywhere else!" and "ugh oci just seems stressful and why should i waste everyone's time when i KNOW i wanna return to my 1L firm?"

this time he wasn't so lucky with the attorneys he was assigned to work with. he made a mistake on an assignment and a partner wrote a scathing review. the folks he worked with in his first summer either were no longer around, didn't care, or didn't have enough sway to balance out the bad review, and the firm didn't give him a full-time associate position.

another friend also had a very enjoyable 1L SA experience, but it wasn't until his second summer, which he split with another firm, that he realized that his 1L summer firm just wasn't the right fit. that second summer gave him additional insight about the 1L firm's office politics, workflow, turnover, and other issues that he hadn't really even thought of as a 1L, when all he knew was that 1L firm and he was just grateful to be there anyway. it all worked out, though, because he received offers from both firms and he declined the one from his 1L firm.

I think the real key here is to at least do OCI. After spending my 1L summer with a firm that I really liked, much more than I thought I would like any firm, I still did the whole OCI process. I think that gave me some perspective on my options and what I really wanted out of whatever time I would spend as an associate. So, instead of splitting firms, I split offices when I returned to my 1L firm for my 2L summer, because I realized that what I really wasn't looking for was a different firm, but the opportunity to try working in a different market.

[Anonymous User]

What do you do when you completely fucked up and bit off more than you can chew at work and have multiple deadlines in less than 24 hours and no way to complete everything in time and feel like you are going to cry

asking for a friend

ETA: this isn't a joke pls help

[Slytherpuff]

What do you do when you completely fucked up and bit off more than you can chew at work and have multiple deadlines in less than 24 hours and no way to complete everything in time and feel like you are going to cry

asking for a friend

ETA: this isn't a joke pls help

Talk to your summer program coordinator and/or the assigning attorneys - ask for help ASAP! They can help you figure out what to do and what deadlines can be pushed back, and can help you talk with the partners/associates you have assignments for. I feel like this is super common when we first start working since no one knows how to manage their time. Obviously it sucks and is CRAZY stressful, but it's a learning experience.

Just breathe, ask for help now, and see what you can get done.

[Babum]

What do you do when you completely fucked up and bit off more than you can chew at work and have multiple deadlines in less than 24 hours and no way to complete everything in time and feel like you are going to cry

asking for a friend

ETA: this isn't a joke pls help

talk to your firm mentor

[Anonymous User]

Big partner at the firm is kinda known for being a hardass to summers and young associates (used to be famous for throwing shit at people, not allowed to do that anymore). He assigned all the summers this crazy assingment and most of them asked for an extension on the deadline (myself included). He gave us the extension, but then called us all into his office and yelled at us (this is unacceptable, when you have a deadline you get shit done, I'm not happy about giving you an extension, this is the quickest way to get no-offered etc etc). Whats the best course of action to mitigate this situation? I was thinking about pulling multiple all nighters and pushing all my other stuff back to make the deadline, does that seem like a good idea? My work products won't be as polished as it would be if I took the extension (which I think all the other summers are still planning to take), but I'd submit it on time and send the message that his talk really sinked in.

[Anonymous User]

Big partner at the firm is kinda known for being a hardass to summers and young associates (used to be famous for throwing shit at people, not allowed to do that anymore). He assigned all the summers this crazy assingment and most of them asked for an extension on the deadline (myself included). He gave us the extension, but then called us all into his office and yelled at us (this is unacceptable, when you have a deadline you get shit done, I'm not happy about giving you an extension, this is the quickest way to get no-offered etc etc). Whats the best course of action to mitigate this situation? I was thinking about pulling multiple all nighters and pushing all my other stuff back to make the deadline, does that seem like a good idea? My work products won't be as polished as it would be if I took the extension (which I think all the other summers are still planning to take), but I'd submit it on time and send the message that his talk really sinked in.

IMO, if you can pull it off, get your shit done by the deadline.

[georgej]

Similarly, a partner I wanted to work for had some very harsh critiques of my painting at paint night. He said he was startled by the bold faced mix of shit-flinging atavism with faux-intellectual subversiveness. He asked how I could possibly expect to draft a UCC-1 with that attitude, and I didn't really have a good answer. When I suggested maybe going out for shots, tho, he seemed receptive, but I'm worried the damage is done. No offer?

[pancakes3]

Big partner at the firm is kinda known for being a hardass to summers and young associates (used to be famous for throwing shit at people, not allowed to do that anymore). He assigned all the summers this crazy assingment and most of them asked for an extension on the deadline (myself included). He gave us the extension, but then called us all into his office and yelled at us (this is unacceptable, when you have a deadline you get shit done, I'm not happy about giving you an extension, this is the quickest way to get no-offered etc etc). Whats the best course of action to mitigate this situation? I was thinking about pulling multiple all nighters and pushing all my other stuff back to make the deadline, does that seem like a good idea? My work products won't be as polished as it would be if I took the extension (which I think all the other summers are still planning to take), but I'd submit it on time and send the message that his talk really sinked in.

IMO, if you can pull it off, get your shit done by the deadline.

fuck that. multiple all-nighters when you have what? 2-3 weeks left? you already asked for an extension. plus, he's not going to throw his weight around and try to no-offer 3/4 of the class over this. the prevailing wisdom of keeping your head down still holds.

[PeanutsNJam]

Similarly, a partner I wanted to work for had some very harsh critiques of my painting at paint night. He said he was startled by the bold faced mix of shit-flinging atavism with faux-intellectual subversiveness. He asked how I could possibly expect to draft a UCC-1 with that attitude, and I didn't really have a good answer. When I suggested maybe going out for shots, tho, he seemed receptive, but I'm worried the damage is done. No offer?

I know this is a joke but I've actually gotten pulled into a partner's office and complimented on my grilling at a firm event, and the partner talked about how good cooks make good lawyers. No joke.