V15 Partner/OCI Interviewer Answering Questions... Forum

[anon168]

How much office politics does one have to go through to get ahead?

Do you have colleagues that sabotage one another? Do back talk? Form allies and groups just like they do in Survivors?

Yes, to all of your questions. Or, more like, "of course".

Wow, seriously? Can you give me an example of Biglaw colleague sabotage?

Backbiting, spreading vicious rumors, stealing your work, palming off mistakes onto younger associates, etc.

I'll give you an example. There was a document review for a rather large case at my firm. The first year did a first cut for privilege, then the senior associate was supposed to review everything before the product was produced. The first year did the privilege review, flagged the docs that were questionable -- i.e., could be privileged but not sure -- and then turned it over to the sr. associate. Senior associate never bothered to look things over and then produced everything. Including docs that were flagged and should have been withheld as privileged. Firm spent about an extra 100k in fees to fight and get the docs back, not to mention the loss of goodwill with client. First year took the hit for the entire fiasco.

There are other instances where senior associates would not delegate work until the very last minute to a younger associate, etc. Just dumb shit like that.

Basic principle is if someone else looks worse than you do, then chances are you're going to look better. It's the way life works.

[anon168]

How important should method of compensation be in selecting a firm? Is it relevant that one firm might be on pure lockstep market bonuses while another rewards you for hours worked?

my thinking is that you'll work really hard anywhere so why not get the flexible bonuses.

Neither system is perfect.

While I agree with you that you want to get rewarded for extra hard hard (or extra "better" work), that doesn't always happen. Sometimes people may not like you (i.e. a partner may just like going to happy hour with that other "slacker" associate). Or sometimes you might bill 2700, do a bang up job on the 9 out of the 10 assignments you've had that year, but screw up that one assignment and you get shit-faced at review time because that one assignment you screwed up was for that one partner that's a big shot rainamker. That's when lock-step looks really good.

[anon168]

I had an internship with a large accounting firm during undergrad. It was called a marketing internship, but my boss decided to give me different projects after realizing that I could copy edit and draft proposals, publications, etc. Did a lot of work on materials for clients. Would this be something to keep on my resume and use as an interview talking point? Or is an undergrad internship too insignificant? I'm a K-JD with no full time work experience.

Thank you!

I think these are good talking points, and if you've got room on your resume, sure put it on.

[anon168]

Is there any disadvantages for being older than your peers?

Say, 30-35 yrs old at the time of LS graduation?

Any disadvantages getting into Biglaw or while working there?

Any advantage? Not necessarily.

Any disadvantage? Only if you have problems taking directions from people younger than you.

[Anonymous User]

How much office politics does one have to go through to get ahead?

Do you have colleagues that sabotage one another? Do back talk? Form allies and groups just like they do in Survivors?

Yes, to all of your questions. Or, more like, "of course".

Wow, seriously? Can you give me an example of Biglaw colleague sabotage?

Backbiting, spreading vicious rumors, stealing your work, palming off mistakes onto younger associates, etc.

I'll give you an example. There was a document review for a rather large case at my firm. The first year did a first cut for privilege, then the senior associate was supposed to review everything before the product was produced. The first year did the privilege review, flagged the docs that were questionable -- i.e., could be privileged but not sure -- and then turned it over to the sr. associate. Senior associate never bothered to look things over and then produced everything. Including docs that were flagged and should have been withheld as privileged. Firm spent about an extra 100k in fees to fight and get the docs back, not to mention the loss of goodwill with client. First year took the hit for the entire fiasco.

There are other instances where senior associates would not delegate work until the very last minute to a younger associate, etc. Just dumb shit like that.

Basic principle is if someone else looks worse than you do, then chances are you're going to look better. It's the way life works.

is the only way to protect against this to make sure there's an explicit paper trail marking what needed to be done?

[Anonymous User]

Ropes (Boston) v. WilmerHale (Boston).. which one would you take if you were looking to do corporate?

[Anonymous User]

How much office politics does one have to go through to get ahead?

Do you have colleagues that sabotage one another? Do back talk? Form allies and groups just like they do in Survivors?

Yes, to all of your questions. Or, more like, "of course".

Wow, seriously? Can you give me an example of Biglaw colleague sabotage?

Backbiting, spreading vicious rumors, stealing your work, palming off mistakes onto younger associates, etc.

I'll give you an example. There was a document review for a rather large case at my firm. The first year did a first cut for privilege, then the senior associate was supposed to review everything before the product was produced. The first year did the privilege review, flagged the docs that were questionable -- i.e., could be privileged but not sure -- and then turned it over to the sr. associate. Senior associate never bothered to look things over and then produced everything. Including docs that were flagged and should have been withheld as privileged. Firm spent about an extra 100k in fees to fight and get the docs back, not to mention the loss of goodwill with client. First year took the hit for the entire fiasco.

There are other instances where senior associates would not delegate work until the very last minute to a younger associate, etc. Just dumb shit like that.

Basic principle is if someone else looks worse than you do, then chances are you're going to look better. It's the way life works.

I wish OP would return to field some questions. I'm not saying your observations are without merit, but you're awfully cynical, and your firm seems like a terrible place to work.

[anon168]

is the only way to protect against this to make sure there's an explicit paper trail marking what needed to be done?

Yes, or try to work directly with partners. Actually, that's your best bet. Just try to work with partners directly.

[anon168]

Ropes (Boston) v. WilmerHale (Boston).. which one would you take if you were looking to do corporate?

I'm not familiar with corporate side of the business, sorry. But if it was just based on rep in the market boston, I would go with Ropes. But again, I am only familiar with litigation.

[anon168]

I wish OP would return to field some questions. I'm not saying your observations are without merit, but you're awfully cynical, and your firm seems like a terrible place to work.

Sorry, but I'm just trying to give it you straight.

Maybe because (unlike the OP) I'm been through the entire partnership track, I've seen enough and heard enough (not just at my firm but many others) what it's like.

Obviously it's not all bad, but then it's not all good. You get paid alot at biglaw for basically doing menial tasks. There's an obvious give-and-take there.

(And fwiw, my old firm actually ranks quite high consistently on those Amlaw Midlevel Associates rankings. And you know what? Looking back on it, I really really enjoyed my time at my old firm.)

[Myself]

.

[anon168]

If someone doesn't start out in BigLaw because his grades weren't too hot his 1L year (thus you strike out at OCI and do a non-law firm position for your 2L summer), is there a way to get in later in his career?

Sure, lateral in from a government position.

Most obvious example is SEC, FTC, AG, DA, DOJ, USAO, or IRS ---> biglaw.

[Reprisal]

Yes, or try to work directly with partners.

Ya, took me a week to figure this out. Partners have a better idea of what they want/need and give clearer direction.

[Myself]

.

[roranoa]

is the only way to protect against this to make sure there's an explicit paper trail marking what needed to be done?

Yes, or try to work directly with partners. Actually, that's your best bet. Just try to work with partners directly.

How do you do that if senior associates are the ones handing you work? Do you just skip over the senior and ask for comments to the partner?

[anon168]

I asked this of OP, but I thought I'd ask you since you do lit and he did mostly corporate. How big of a difference does doing a clerkship help your actual litigation skills? Did you notice a consistent difference between litigators who clerked and litigators who did not? Why or why not?

I think clerking is something you should seriously consider if you want to litigate. Not only does it make you a better lawyer, it makes you a better person.

Now, I may be biased because I clerked for two years and both of my judges were marvelous and fantastic mentors, but there is nothing that is comparable to the experience you can get while clerking. I don't care if it's working at a DAO, DOJ honors, USAO or some supposedly uber lit boutique like a Susman or a Keker. And firms know this. When I joined my firm after clerking I was able to second-chair a jury trial and handle 4 witnesses in my second year there. Part of that was probably just luck, but I think part of had to do with my clerking background.

Plus, you get to know one judge on a personal basis -- which is impossible to do anywhere else.

And, don't overlook the networking opportunities. At a minimum you will get to know your co-clerk, who (like you) will probably go on to do great things later on in life. Maybe some day be a CEO of a big corp, or a biglaw partner, so it never hurts to know people who will be in positions of power that can be help to you later on in life. And that's just your co-clerk. You'll also meet other clerks in the courthouse -- those people (like you and your co-clerk) will also go on in life to do great things. So the networking opps is something people never seem to mention when talking about +/- of clerking.

Now whether clerking will make you a better litigator in court? I think so, but I don't think it is necessary. It takes a different kind of cat to be a good trial lawyer. Having tried civil and criminal cases, I can tell you that there are many fantastic trial lawyers who (1) never clerked (2) graduated from a TTT and (3) could care less about your HYS credentials.

Hope that helps.

[anon168]

is the only way to protect against this to make sure there's an explicit paper trail marking what needed to be done?

Yes, or try to work directly with partners. Actually, that's your best bet. Just try to work with partners directly.

How do you do that if senior associates are the ones handing you work? Do you just skip over the senior and ask for comments to the partner?

You know that "CC:" line on you Outlook Email? Use it. Copy everyone on your litigation team (from partner, to other associates, to paralegals, etc.) when you have completed a task, or are updating your direct supervisor (i.e. midlevel assoc) on your assignment progress.

If your midlevel associate wants you to just e-mail him/her, then just "BC" the file and your legal assistant on the e-mail.

[Anonymous User]

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[Anonymous User]

Anonymous User wrote:
I've heard that students generally have a 50% chance of getting an offer after going to a callback. Any thoughts on this? Can interviewees greatly improve their chances by scheduling their callbacks as early as possible? I'm in the lower t-14 with callbacks at v50 firms.

itbdvorm wrote: do your callbacks ASAP.

It seems like OP is gone, but thank you anyway sir. I just read through the 58 pages of (mostly) extremely helpful information and am most likely forever indebted to you.

I have two questions:

1) You stressed several times how important it is to do callbacks ASAP. Despite "sub-par" credentials, the screener with my #1 choice went extremely well and I was offered a callback a few days later. I called to set up a the interview right away, but when I requested a week from that date (Friday) the recruiter said that it would be "tight" and asked "how about the Friday after that?" Hopefully this week-long delay isn't a huge detriment to my chances, even if others from my school interview before me? If you think it would be, would it be wise to attempt to move it up a few days?

2) This is my first callback interview, but also my number one choice. Other than general enthusiasm, is there anything I can do without being too pushy that indicates that they are number one ( I wouldn't hesitate to accept if they were to extend an offer)?

Once again, thank you for your insight and time.

(anon168 feel free to take over the reins if OP is gone)

[anon168]

Anonymous User wrote:
I've heard that students generally have a 50% chance of getting an offer after going to a callback. Any thoughts on this? Can interviewees greatly improve their chances by scheduling their callbacks as early as possible? I'm in the lower t-14 with callbacks at v50 firms.

itbdvorm wrote: do your callbacks ASAP.

It seems like OP is gone, but thank you anyway sir. I just read through the 58 pages of (mostly) extremely helpful information and am most likely forever indebted to you.

I have two questions:

1) You stressed several times how important it is to do callbacks ASAP. Despite "sub-par" credentials, the screener with my #1 choice went extremely well and I was offered a callback a few days later. I called to set up a the interview right away, but when I requested a week from that date (Friday) the recruiter said that it would be "tight" and asked "how about the Friday after that?" Hopefully this week-long delay isn't a huge detriment to my chances, even if others from my school interview before me? If you think it would be, would it be wise to attempt to move it up a few days?

2) This is my first callback interview, but also my number one choice. Other than general enthusiasm, is there anything I can do without being too pushy that indicates that they are number one ( I wouldn't hesitate to accept if they were to extend an offer)?

Once again, thank you for your insight and time.

(anon168 feel free to take over the reins if OP is gone)

I'm not the OP, but let me see if I can lend some insight in case the OP does not respond.

1. Yes, get it scheduled ASAP, but don't do it so that it inconveniences the firm's schedule. If the firm says a particular date is going to be "tight" then let it go, and ask for the next earliest available date.

2. Be enthusiastic, but relaxed. Don't over play your hand (or desperation in this case). I vacillate over how effective it is telling a firm during a CB that the firm is their "No. 1" choice. Because who would ever say that a firm was really their backup plan and the only reason they are even doing the CB is in case they strike out with their No. 1 choice, right? One way to say that you'd accept an offer if given one is to do it indirectly like, "It's pretty obvious this is a great firm, and I can't imagine anyone not wanting to start and make a career here." Or words to that effect.

But some general pointers on No. 2. Research the firm and your interviewers if you know them beforehand. And when I say research I mean beyond just the website materials. That much is expected. If you really want to show your interest at least have the gumption to pop the firm's name and/or lawyer's name into Google, and perhaps even Nexis or Westlaw.

Good luck.

[Myself]

.

[anon168]

What types of questions did interviewees ask you that impressed you the most?

For me it was less about what questions they asked in particular and more about whether they could carry on a conversation. In other words, I want to know if I will enjoy working with this person, whether this is someone I want to have a drink with, and whether I'm going to feel totally awkward if I'm stuck riding up the elevator with this person.

Remember, your grades got you the CB. Your personality will get you the offer.

Don't try to force a "good" or "substantive" question. It isn't really expected. Of course you should ask about basic things like practice area, hours, work assignment, etc., but don't fall into the trap of believing that there is one magical question that will get you an offer.

Think of a CB like a first date. Be charming, but not overbearing. And never let on about how desperate you are to get laid.

[roranoa]

Do you think NYC Biglaw are reluctant to take in old candidates?

(Old: 33-36)

[Anonymous User]

I have two offers from NYC V-30ish firms. Will be 36 at bar exam. Anecdotal, but still.

[roranoa]

I have two offers from NYC V-30ish firms. Will be 36 at bar exam. Anecdotal, but still.

Do you think you would've gotten into a higher ranking firm if you were younger? Why do you think those firms (higher ranking) rejected you?