Law firm recruiter answering questions for a bit Forum

[lawfirmrecruiter]

Why are grades the almost exclusive distinguishing factor (at least outside the T14) for applicants? Are grades actually a fairly good indicator of ability? Is it a poor indicator, but nonetheless, the best one that you have?

Grades are important for a number of reasons but should not (in my opinion) be the exclusive distinguishing factor for students. High grades can indicate intellectual curiosity, analytic aptitude, perseverance, etc. Also, given this market and the sheer volume of applicants firms see, we have to have some sort of place to start when looking at an entire applicant pool which can exceed 1,000 students. That said, when we begin evaluating candidates, we do look at the student as a whole beyond just grades. Do they have previous experience in business? Have they shown marked improvement over the course of school? Many things come into play beyond just grades for us.

[lawfirmrecruiter]

So let's say you were pretty average, grade-wise, after 1L and struck out at OCI and mass mails, but killed it 2L and jumped way up. When is an appropriate time to re-apply to firms that showed some vague interest for a permanent instead of summer position?

You should start following up with them now.

[lawfirmrecruiter]

Hi there!!

Question - I'm a 2L at a T14 who currently has no job for next summer. My grades from 1L are horrible (like 2.5 on B+ curve horrible). I have a great resume (even got several preselects for OCI). At least 3 firms directly told me that my grades were the only thing preventing them from hiring me (liked my resume & personality would fit well with firm). What are the chances that a big improvement in my grades might result in a big firm I previously interviewed with reconsidering me?

If my grades for Fall semester are substantially higher, I plan on emailing every firm I interviewed with to inform them of the change. After each ding, I emailed the recruiters and interviewers thanking them for their consideration, I know you can't hire everyone, please keep me in mind for the future. I figure it's worth a shot...but what are the chances it will lead to anything?

It will be difficult, but not impossible. Definitely worth a shot. Even if they don't hire you, they will be impressed with your improvement and might send your resume around to other firms in the market that might be looking. That is what I would do . . .

[Ofta3184]

how do you feel about "asking for the job"? You're supposed to do it in other professional interviews, but is it important for someone on a callback or in-office interview to explicitly ask the recruiters/partners for the job or is it assumed?

[The trouble i've been having is on my callbacks, the partner introduces/walks with me to the next partner, so id have to "ask for the job" in front of the other partner standing there=awkward]

[lawfirmrecruiter]

how do you feel about "asking for the job"? You're supposed to do it in other professional interviews, but is it important for someone on a callback or in-office interview to explicitly ask the recruiters/partners for the job or is it assumed?

[The trouble i've been having is on my callbacks, the partner introduces/walks with me to the next partner, so id have to "ask for the job" in front of the other partner standing there=awkward]

I agree that it is odd to "ask for the job" in callback situations for precisely the reason you describe. There just is no good time to do it in these rolling interviews. Save the "ask" for the recruiter and/or hiring partner and don't worry about it with everyone else. Trust me - all firms and lawyers assume you want the job.

[Anonymous User]

how do you feel about "asking for the job"? You're supposed to do it in other professional interviews, but is it important for someone on a callback or in-office interview to explicitly ask the recruiters/partners for the job or is it assumed?

[The trouble i've been having is on my callbacks, the partner introduces/walks with me to the next partner, so id have to "ask for the job" in front of the other partner standing there=awkward]

I agree that it is odd to "ask for the job" in callback situations for precisely the reason you describe. There just is no good time to do it in these rolling interviews. Save the "ask" for the recruiter and/or hiring partner and don't worry about it with everyone else. Trust me - all firms and lawyers assume you want the job.

thank you and happy holidays!

[Sherwood2014]

Happy to be the first to post a question in 2012! With grades now coming out, some of us might not be ranked in the top third of our class. . . .with that in mind, do you have any words of encouragement for 2012?

I just watched a TV show, The Firm (sequel from the movie), and the plot line centered on a law student who just graduated claiming that half of the law school grads are unable to secure work. Plus, you must have heard of the UVA protest where law students are sporting “$40K a year debt and no job” t-shirts.

Does 2012 offer brighter side? I ask this as a T-10 student who might wind up at on the cusp of median. Do I need to super-size my panic button!!?

[Anonymous User]

For a summer associate at a firm, can his suit be too nice? I know it's a general good rule of thumb to sort of blend in, not stand out. Would it be a bad idea for a summer associate to have a really high end suit, even though it's just plain blue or charcoal? Would this still be a bit flashy and a bad idea?

I'm not a lawyer yet, but I think my experiences in other industries can shed some light on this situation. Basically, you shouldn't wear nicer clothes than your boss. Don't show up for your first day wearing a $5k suit. People will notice. Once you buy a few suits, you can kind of gauge the quality and cost of other suits (even very conservative ones). You certainly don't want to wear a nicer suit than the partners, and I don't think you should wear a nicer suit than the associates either. They'll be able to tell, too. I wouldn't recommend showing up wearing a suit that cost over $1k. If someone would like to correct me on this, feel free.

[r6_philly]

How different is the 1L callback/offer process from the 2L one?

[Guchster]

How different is the 1L callback/offer process from the 2L one?

This is a great question. Can you please be sure it is answered.

[c3pO4]

How different is the 1L callback/offer process from the 2L one?

This is a great question. Can you please be sure it is answered.

Both of them advantage people who don't order people around who are graciously giving up their valuable time to help other people out.

[Guchster]

How different is the 1L callback/offer process from the 2L one?

This is a great question. Can you please be sure it is answered.

Both of them advantage people who don't order people around who are graciously giving up their valuable time to help other people out.

You know c3p0, you're always pissing me off. why don't you go and fuck yourself

this was meant to be a +1 to show there was support for r6's question on a thread with a shitload of questions for a person to answer iwth valuable time.

[r6_philly]

How different is the 1L callback/offer process from the 2L one?

This is a great question. Can you please be sure it is answered.

Both of them advantage people who don't order people around who are graciously giving up their valuable time to help other people out.

TBF, I actually read it as Guchster telling me to make sure it gets answered. I am ok with that.

[nonprofit-prophet]

Should you try to tailor your personality based on the people interviewing you? I'm a 1L and have had 2 interviews so far. I have a pretty strong personality and I felt like I got along MUCH better with the interviewers in the first interview (litigators) than in the second one (transactional attorneys). I think I'd like to do transactional work, should I try to "tone it down?"

thanks so much for answering questions!

[beach_terror]

Looks like I'll be going straight in house after I graduate (summer offer, should turn into a full time offer). Do you ever interview candidates for associate positions who are lateraling from a previous career in house? The position is in the drugs/biotech industry, so if I tried to go back to firm life, it would likely be in some type of FDA practice or general corporate work. Is this transfer feasible, or do employers look down on the lack of firm training? I'd be fine with being a junior associate if given the opportunity to lateral. Really unfamiliar with how this all works, so any info is really appreciated!

[lawfirmrecruiter]

Happy to be the first to post a question in 2012! With grades now coming out, some of us might not be ranked in the top third of our class. . . .with that in mind, do you have any words of encouragement for 2012?

I just watched a TV show, The Firm (sequel from the movie), and the plot line centered on a law student who just graduated claiming that half of the law school grads are unable to secure work. Plus, you must have heard of the UVA protest where law students are sporting “$40K a year debt and no job” t-shirts.

Does 2012 offer brighter side? I ask this as a T-10 student who might wind up at on the cusp of median. Do I need to super-size my panic button!!?

I don't think you need to super-size your panic button but you do need to start being proactive with your plans. Don't just wait for OCI to happen and hope it works out. You should start thinking about what market you truly want to be in, what type of lawyer you want to be and what kind of employer you want to target. It is getting better but things are still pretty rough.

[lawfirmrecruiter]

How different is the 1L callback/offer process from the 2L one?

It is much more hectic. There are more opportunities for positions and it is much more structured, IMHO.

[lawfirmrecruiter]

Should you try to tailor your personality based on the people interviewing you? I'm a 1L and have had 2 interviews so far. I have a pretty strong personality and I felt like I got along MUCH better with the interviewers in the first interview (litigators) than in the second one (transactional attorneys). I think I'd like to do transactional work, should I try to "tone it down?"

thanks so much for answering questions!

Well, you should still be yourself, but you should try to match the tone of the interviewers to make it more comfortable and easier to make a connection.

[lawfirmrecruiter]

Looks like I'll be going straight in house after I graduate (summer offer, should turn into a full time offer). Do you ever interview candidates for associate positions who are lateraling from a previous career in house? The position is in the drugs/biotech industry, so if I tried to go back to firm life, it would likely be in some type of FDA practice or general corporate work. Is this transfer feasible, or do employers look down on the lack of firm training? I'd be fine with being a junior associate if given the opportunity to lateral. Really unfamiliar with how this all works, so any info is really appreciated!

It really depends on the type of experience you get. While it can be harder to lateral over from an in-house position because you do not have firm experience, if you bring a unique perspective or can solidify a client relationship it can be done.

[Anonymous User]

If you applied to a firm for a 1L summer job, and the firm gave out interview slots prior to when you received grades (top 5%), should you send an email expressing continued interest in the firm? I sent my grades in the day I received them, but have heard nothing. Is it appropriate to contact them again?

[Anonymous User]

First, I want to echo how absolutely wonderful it is that you've made yourself available to us like this. I've literally had this thread open for the past week, and have been reading through it as time permits- so you should know how truly valuable it is.

I've spoken about this issue with my school's CSO staff and Dean of Students, but still don't have a clear, actionable answer. I think you're probably in the best position to answer this question. I was convicted of a felony (3rd degree possession with intent) 6 years ago, and there are all kinds of judgment questions in terms of when it should be disclosed, how, to whom (or even at all, if it's not expressly asked about). These are my current thoughts:

1. 1st round OCI interview is just too soon. I'd be a quick and easy kill.

2. My current plan is to disclose at the end of a call-back, to the recruiter, hiring manager, or whomever put together the call-back. I feel like at that point, I can effectively say, "I have to tell you something that I know you would want to know. I didn't mention it earlier because I didn't feel like there was an appropriate occasion, and I wanted you to have an opportunity to meet the person I am today before I tell you about something I did many years ago . . . ."

3. Waiting until an offer is extended, or rolling the dice and waiting to see if they actually do a background check and either only then disclosing, or waiting it out and potentially never disclosing anything if they don't check, are poor choices. I think these sorts of tactics range from that which would instantly irritate and may lead them to question my character and judgment from day 1, to potentially creating Bar C&F issues. Obviously they're less awkward options though, so if you think a wait-and-see approach is acceptable, feel free to let me know!

So, essentially: (1) what is the absolute latest time or worst manner, beyond which it would be outright unacceptable? (2) What you feel is an adequate way to handle this, perhaps not the ideal manner, but an understandable one, given the uncomfortableness of raising the issue- this would be a manner for which you'd at least not deduct additional points based on the delivery alone, confining the damage to points lost for the existence of the conviction itself; and (3) if there's any way to do it in a way you feel you could almost admire or respect (e.g. doing it in a way that adds character, integrity and judgment points, for being forthcoming, identifying the problem, and owning the issue and the way it's framed). If possible, please be specific in terms of the right time, manner, and person, under these scenarios. I sincerely apologize for monopolizing your time with this big Q, but I've exhausted my resources on this issue and am really in need of some concrete advice (although I know there are other similarly situated people on here who will benefit too).

I've really come so far since it happened, and as top 5% in a 20's school with very solid professional and other credentials, I feel like I have a legitimate shot. I'm just caught in this sticky tension between wanting to present myself in the best, most ethical light, and also not wanting to shoot myself in the foot.

Really, THANK YOU SO MUCH!!

[Guchster]

First, I want to echo how absolutely wonderful it is that you've made yourself available to us like this. I've literally had this thread open for the past week, and have been reading through it as time permits- so you should know how truly valuable it is.

I've spoken about this issue with my school's CSO staff and Dean of Students, but still don't have a clear, actionable answer. I think you're probably in the best position to answer this question. I was convicted of a felony (3rd degree possession with intent) 6 years ago, and there are all kinds of judgment questions in terms of when it should be disclosed, how, to whom (or even at all, if it's not expressly asked about). These are my current thoughts:

1. 1st round OCI interview is just too soon. I'd be a quick and easy kill.

2. My current plan is to disclose at the end of a call-back, to the recruiter, hiring manager, or whomever put together the call-back. I feel like at that point, I can effectively say, "I have to tell you something that I know you would want to know. I didn't mention it earlier because I didn't feel like there was an appropriate occasion, and I wanted you to have an opportunity to meet the person I am today before I tell you about something I did many years ago . . . ."

3. Waiting until an offer is extended, or rolling the dice and waiting to see if they actually do a background check and either only then disclosing, or waiting it out and potentially never disclosing anything if they don't check, are poor choices. I think these sorts of tactics range from that which would instantly irritate and may lead them to question my character and judgment from day 1, to potentially creating Bar C&F issues. Obviously they're less awkward options though, so if you think a wait-and-see approach is acceptable, feel free to let me know!

So, essentially: (1) what is the absolute latest time or worst manner, beyond which it would be outright unacceptable? (2) What you feel is an adequate way to handle this, perhaps not the ideal manner, but an understandable one, given the uncomfortableness of raising the issue- this would be a manner for which you'd at least not deduct additional points based on the delivery alone, confining the damage to points lost for the existence of the conviction itself; and (3) if there's any way to do it in a way you feel you could almost admire or respect (e.g. doing it in a way that adds character, integrity and judgment points, for being forthcoming, identifying the problem, and owning the issue and the way it's framed). If possible, please be specific in terms of the right time, manner, and person, under these scenarios. I sincerely apologize for monopolizing your time with this big Q, but I've exhausted my resources on this issue and am really in need of some concrete advice (although I know there are other similarly situated people on here who will benefit too).

I've really come so far since it happened, and as top 5% in a 20's school with very solid professional and other credentials, I feel like I have a legitimate shot. I'm just caught in this sticky tension between wanting to present myself in the best, most ethical light, and also not wanting to shoot myself in the foot.

Really, THANK YOU SO MUCH!!

tl;dr. can you provide a summary?

[Reprisal]

tl;dr. can you provide a summary?

fly away, shithead

[Guchster]

tl;dr. can you provide a summary?

fly away, shithead

LOL! Anonymous fail?

[Reprisal]

No, I'm not the dude with the felony. You can still go, though.