Milbank/Davis Polk/Cravath Scale: NYC to 215-415k Forum

[Anonymous User]

This is getting ridiculous. I'm an M&A associate who has been swamped for months and I will 100% leave my v5 for a firm on the Milbank scale if it doesn't match. If firms think they can rely on their "prestige" to undercompensate associates they're stupid. I literally don't care where I work if I receive better pay for the same hours/fewer hours than I am currently working. I feel like firms don't think associates like me exist (i.e., will actually leave over 10-20k/yr), but I think there are many who feel similarly.

Can I ask, why haven't you already left then? If you're a swamped transactional attorney you could make a fair amount more by going to a firm that gives super-bonuses regardless of base salary.

Because I usually don't consistently bill the kind of hours necessary to get a bonus multiplier at other firms and I lateraled like 1.5 years ago so don't want to arbitrarily jump around again. My main goal is to survive big law as long as possible while doing good work but not working more than I need to. I have generally been content at my current firm but the radio silence is pissing me off and is certainly not breeding loyalty. The amount of money partners make here is insane, and the delay in raising associate salaries by a relatively miniscule amount (or at least acknowledging that raises will happen) is insulting.

[Anonymous User]

This is getting ridiculous. I'm an M&A associate who has been swamped for months and I will 100% leave my v5 for a firm on the Milbank scale if it doesn't match. If firms think they can rely on their "prestige" to undercompensate associates they're stupid. I literally don't care where I work if I receive better pay for the same hours/fewer hours than I am currently working. I feel like firms don't think associates like me exist (i.e., will actually leave over 10-20k/yr), but I think there are many who feel similarly.

Can I ask, why haven't you already left then? If you're a swamped transactional attorney you could make a fair amount more by going to a firm that gives super-bonuses regardless of base salary.

Different anon but: There's a cost to leaving and cutting ties. Sometimes it's relatively low but it's not 0. Some ephemeral promise of "your year-end bonus will be a bigger multiple than your current year-end bonus" may not be enough by itself to push a certain subset of associates over to a new place. But those same people may be more moved at the idea that their actual base salary, the figure we all have in our head when someone asks "how much do you make" is less than their peers doing the same crap at another place.

There’s definitely a cost to leaving, but people overestimate it. The types of people who can get the six-figure signing bonuses and guaranteed above-market bonuses are generally the same people who can hit the ground running (not the “where’s my precious precedent” people). It’s the same transactions and often the same technology when you move. It’s not hard to learn partners’ and clients’ preferences. If you’re someone looking for an exit before partnership, moving every 16-24 months can get you a variety of experience and mad cash. Not for most people, but worked well for me.

[Anonymous User]

Probably off topic, but maybe off topic is on topic for this thread. How early can you lateral and get a signing bonus? I'm a first year class of 21, 5 months under my belt. Was planning to stay at my current place for at least a year or two but I'm nervous about signing bonuses not being a thing any more if I wait. Feels weird to jump ship so soon but if I can get some cash for it maybe I should?

[TigerIsBack]

Probably off topic, but maybe off topic is on topic for this thread. How early can you lateral and get a signing bonus? I'm a first year class of 21, 5 months under my belt. Was planning to stay at my current place for at least a year or two but I'm nervous about signing bonuses not being a thing any more if I wait. Feels weird to jump ship so soon but if I can get some cash for it maybe I should?

I'm guessing the level of signing bonus you'd be offered wouldn't be worth leaving this soon and "wasting" a move (it's not a great look to lateral all the time if you can avoid it and even in-house jobs don't want to see someone who jumps ship all the time, so I think consensus on here is you can safely move firms 2-3 times as an associate, but will still have to explain it, e.g. cross country move, practice area switch, etc.). Realistically I would guess a '21 grad wouldn't get any signing bonus at all, but who knows, maybe some firms really need bodies.

[Anonymous User]

Probably off topic, but maybe off topic is on topic for this thread. How early can you lateral and get a signing bonus? I'm a first year class of 21, 5 months under my belt. Was planning to stay at my current place for at least a year or two but I'm nervous about signing bonuses not being a thing any more if I wait. Feels weird to jump ship so soon but if I can get some cash for it maybe I should?

I'm guessing the level of signing bonus you'd be offered wouldn't be worth leaving this soon and "wasting" a move (it's not a great look to lateral all the time if you can avoid it and even in-house jobs don't want to see someone who jumps ship all the time, so I think consensus on here is you can safely move firms 2-3 times as an associate, but will still have to explain it, e.g. cross country move, practice area switch, etc.). Realistically I would guess a '21 grad wouldn't get any signing bonus at all, but who knows, maybe some firms really need bodies.

I got a 25k signing bonus moving as a class of 20 7 months after starting, along with guaranteed special and annual bonus so you never know.

[TigerIsBack]

Probably off topic, but maybe off topic is on topic for this thread. How early can you lateral and get a signing bonus? I'm a first year class of 21, 5 months under my belt. Was planning to stay at my current place for at least a year or two but I'm nervous about signing bonuses not being a thing any more if I wait. Feels weird to jump ship so soon but if I can get some cash for it maybe I should?

I'm guessing the level of signing bonus you'd be offered wouldn't be worth leaving this soon and "wasting" a move (it's not a great look to lateral all the time if you can avoid it and even in-house jobs don't want to see someone who jumps ship all the time, so I think consensus on here is you can safely move firms 2-3 times as an associate, but will still have to explain it, e.g. cross country move, practice area switch, etc.). Realistically I would guess a '21 grad wouldn't get any signing bonus at all, but who knows, maybe some firms really need bodies.

I got a 25k signing bonus moving as a class of 20 7 months after starting, along with guaranteed special and annual bonus so you never know.

In that case ignore what I said and maybe you can get a decent signing bonus still. Just a question of whether the $25k is worth it to you. As someone who's done this at a few different shops, in my experience finding a good group that you like is hard and not worth $25k because the quality of your group and the people you work for is the only thing that can make this job tolerable.

[Anonymous User]

At a firm that hasn't matched, I am surprised that DPW and the rest are willing to have associates fill out the Vault survey, which is open, without doing anything.

[Anonymous User]

At a firm that hasn't matched, I am surprised that DPW and the rest are willing to have associates fill out the Vault survey, which is open, without doing anything.

DPW is getting a 1 from me. So is Cravath. Milbank a 10. Same with Chadlobster.

[Anonymous User]

Probably off topic, but maybe off topic is on topic for this thread. How early can you lateral and get a signing bonus? I'm a first year class of 21, 5 months under my belt. Was planning to stay at my current place for at least a year or two but I'm nervous about signing bonuses not being a thing any more if I wait. Feels weird to jump ship so soon but if I can get some cash for it maybe I should?

I'm guessing the level of signing bonus you'd be offered wouldn't be worth leaving this soon and "wasting" a move (it's not a great look to lateral all the time if you can avoid it and even in-house jobs don't want to see someone who jumps ship all the time, so I think consensus on here is you can safely move firms 2-3 times as an associate, but will still have to explain it, e.g. cross country move, practice area switch, etc.). Realistically I would guess a '21 grad wouldn't get any signing bonus at all, but who knows, maybe some firms really need bodies.

I got a 25k signing bonus moving as a class of 20 7 months after starting, along with guaranteed special and annual bonus so you never know.

In that case ignore what I said and maybe you can get a decent signing bonus still. Just a question of whether the $25k is worth it to you. As someone who's done this at a few different shops, in my experience finding a good group that you like is hard and not worth $25k because the quality of your group and the people you work for is the only thing that can make this job tolerable.

I'm not sure tbh. 25k is a nice chunk of cash, if I can get it. In the long run it's not worth it if my chances of sticking/advancement at current firm are better but how am I supposed to know that now? Maybe the best move is to lateral now/soon and stick around at the next place for 3-4 years. Would be nice to get into a firm with no billable requirements and above market bonus.

Also maybe my current firm will cough up retention if I get an offer?

[Anonymous User]

Everyone bragging about getting paid higher than top firms right now are going to be pretty upset if there is a re-raise and their firm doesn’t re-match

The irony of suggesting firms that have matched won't match while being at a firm that hasn't matched.

I got into a V10 firm there is a 0% chance they aren’t going to match they are just waiting for the market to settle. But I don’t think that because other firms matched already is a guarantee that they will match again if there is a re-raise. It may make it likely, then again if they also suspected there would be a re-raise they might have chose to wait.

Still out here claiming "0% chance my firm does what it is doing (not match) because it's a V10" and "your firm may not do exactly what it's done (match) because it's not a V10"

V10 got their folks whipped. They don't need to raise.

[Anonymous User]

At a firm that hasn't matched, I am surprised that DPW and the rest are willing to have associates fill out the Vault survey, which is open, without doing anything.

DPW is getting a 1 from me. So is Cravath. Milbank a 10. Same with Chadlobster.

+1 on calling it Chadlobster until the next round of raises.

[NoLongerALurker]

Maybe some firms are moving toward just keeping the same base and paying bigger bonuses, as a way to stratify firms. The Cahill ATL link above kind of points to that.

[Anonymous User]

At a firm that hasn't matched, I am surprised that DPW and the rest are willing to have associates fill out the Vault survey, which is open, without doing anything.

DPW is getting a 1 from me. So is Cravath. Milbank a 10. Same with Chadlobster.

+1 on calling it Chadlobster until the next round of raises.

Speaking of chadwalader: https://www.law.com/americanlawyer/2022 ... adwalader/
I wonder how long BSF is for this world, they can't catch a break.

[Anonymous User]

Maybe some firms are moving toward just keeping the same base and paying bigger bonuses, as a way to stratify firms. The Cahill ATL link above kind of points to that.

That's not how I read the Cahill link at all. Kinda seemed like the opposite actually: he thinks it's so obvious they'll eventually match that there's no point sending out a memo before the market's settled.

[Anonymous User]

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/330 ... -sensation

'Drawing Mike Trout every day until the lockout is over': How an MLB fan's tribute turned into an internet sensation

Who's gonna start drawing Neil to keep this thread interesting?

[Anonymous User]

At a firm that hasn't matched, I am surprised that DPW and the rest are willing to have associates fill out the Vault survey, which is open, without doing anything.

DPW is getting a 1 from me. So is Cravath. Milbank a 10. Same with Chadlobster.

+1 on calling it Chadlobster until the next round of raises.

Speaking of chadwalader: https://www.law.com/americanlawyer/2022 ... adwalader/
I wonder how long BSF is for this world, they can't catch a break.

This is actually not too surprising. This partner was closely affiliated with Nick Gravante, who had left BSF for Cadwalader earlier. Boies Schiller's "sports and gaming" practice is not really much of a thing anyway beyond a few one-off litigations involving sports clients, with maybe the exception of Schiller himself who does work for the Yankees.

So it's not a huge loss for them, the firm will continue to have a few specific partner-based circles of strength unless they go on a much more serious hiring binge. It'll become a smaller firm that focuses resources more on plaintiff-side work, but will continue to be successful at that because some of the remaining partners both in NY and Florida are pretty smart and well-established.

[Anonymous User]

This thread is adding pages so quickly today that every time I come back to it I think to myself “oh shit there’s gotta be some movement”

Nah. Just lobster jokes and talking shit about our overlords. Cheers to that my fellow peons.

I have a feeling though. That tomorrow or Thursday, we feast.

[Anonymous User]

At a firm that hasn't matched, I am surprised that DPW and the rest are willing to have associates fill out the Vault survey, which is open, without doing anything.

DPW is getting a 1 from me. So is Cravath. Milbank a 10. Same with Chadlobster.

Same. Plan on giving all firms that have matched a 10 and those that haven’t a 1. Don’t usually take the time to fill the survey out so this makes it easier. Plus this has gone on long enough. It’s becoming (somewhat) questionable whether all firms will match so any firm outside the V20 should match or say that it WILL match to just ease everyone’s anxieties- even if it may seem ridiculous to think that it won’t match. There’s always that “what if they don’t” feeling and it takes 0 effort to send out an email saying that the firm plans to match.

[Anonymous User]

Milbank can cement V1 status this week by announcing special bonuses (repeating or improving the 2021 scale).

Just has to make a “One more thing…”-style announcement to seize permanent glory.

[TigerIsBack]

Milbank can cement V1 status this week by announcing special bonuses (repeating or improving the 2021 scale).

Just has to make a “One more thing…”-style announcement to seize permanent glory.

+1. Do it Milbank.

[Anonymous User]

Probably off topic, but maybe off topic is on topic for this thread. How early can you lateral and get a signing bonus? I'm a first year class of 21, 5 months under my belt. Was planning to stay at my current place for at least a year or two but I'm nervous about signing bonuses not being a thing any more if I wait. Feels weird to jump ship so soon but if I can get some cash for it maybe I should?

I'm guessing the level of signing bonus you'd be offered wouldn't be worth leaving this soon and "wasting" a move (it's not a great look to lateral all the time if you can avoid it and even in-house jobs don't want to see someone who jumps ship all the time, so I think consensus on here is you can safely move firms 2-3 times as an associate, but will still have to explain it, e.g. cross country move, practice area switch, etc.). Realistically I would guess a '21 grad wouldn't get any signing bonus at all, but who knows, maybe some firms really need bodies.

I got a 25k signing bonus moving as a class of 20 7 months after starting, along with guaranteed special and annual bonus so you never know.

In that case ignore what I said and maybe you can get a decent signing bonus still. Just a question of whether the $25k is worth it to you. As someone who's done this at a few different shops, in my experience finding a good group that you like is hard and not worth $25k because the quality of your group and the people you work for is the only thing that can make this job tolerable.

Sorry to take the thread back off-topic but which firms have been paying signing bonuses? I only know about Kirkland but am only a 3L.

[Anonymous User]

If nothing else comes out of this thread, at least we got Chadwalader

Did that only just become a thing ITT? God it feels like we’ve been here for years…

From what I've seen and remembered:

Craven, Swine and Moore (aka CravaTTTh)
Wacthell
Sadden
Davis Poke
Paul "comma" Weiss
While
Fried Frank
Freshfields
CovingTTTon
Chadwalader

[Anonymous User]

If nothing else comes out of this thread, at least we got Chadwalader

Did that only just become a thing ITT? God it feels like we’ve been here for years…

From what I've seen and remembered:

Craven, Swine and Moore (aka CravaTTTh)
Wacthell
Sadden
Davis Poke
Paul "comma" Weiss
While
Fried Frank
Freshfields
CovingTTTon
Chadwalader

Gibson Dung and Crotcher
Arnold & PorTTTer
Sadden Arps Slayed Meagher and Phlem
Mil-lions-in-the-bank

[Kikero]

If nothing else comes out of this thread, at least we got Chadwalader

Did that only just become a thing ITT? God it feels like we’ve been here for years…

From what I've seen and remembered:

Craven, Swine and Moore (aka CravaTTTh)
Wacthell
Sadden
Davis Poke
Paul "comma" Weiss
While
Fried Frank
Freshfields
CovingTTTon
Chadwalader

My favorite thing with this is that Fried Frank and Freshfields have weird enough names that the poaster didn’t see the need to change anything.

[BrowsingTLS]

I'VE BECOME SO NUMB
WITH NO RAISE THIS YEAR
WORK AT A V-10
BUT MAKE LESS THAN CADWALADER