2020 End of Year Bonuses Forum

[Auxilio]

PH associates (rightfully) bitching on ATL https://abovethelaw.com/2020/12/paul-ha ... onus-2020/

[lolwutpar]

My firm hasn't announced but looks like I have to bill 250 hours this month to get it, fuck me.

[Anonymous User]

Paul Hastings just announced. Normal market bonus + market special bonus for those who annualized 2k from Feb. 1 to Aug. 31.

This may be the exact time period I'd pick if I were trying to minimize bonus payment.

[Anonymous User]

Weil announced.

[Joachim2017]

It's not really a surprise that the non-truly-elite Big Law firms are putting in hours requirements to help themselves avoid paying out the extra bonus is it? In large part, these are the same firms that put in hours requirements for bonuses in general.

It's only the truly elite -- the DPWs, Cravaths, PWs, S&C, etc. -- that have absolutely no minimum hours requirements. That's part of what makes them more attractive and more sought-after firms to get offers from when you're a 2L doing recruiting. And sure, in practice at these firms you work just as hard, but they provide cushions in a slow year or if you're in a slow practice group. That's part of the allure. Other firms don't have that allure.

Why would we think that firms would flatten rather than reinforce this kind of hierarchical sorting during a pandemic?

[Dcc617]

I assume all the bootlickers who have been saying that OF COURSE all the top firms would totally square up at the end of the year are somehow rationalizing these punk moves instead of admitting that a lot of people got played.

[RPK34]

I don’t really care about hours, as long as they’re reasonable. Some firms seemed to have tried to create various time frames of measurement to maximize people who are eligible to recognize the oddness of this year. The PH approach seems bad.

At the end of the day, some groups (cap markets, M&A, PE, restructuring) are slammed, and some groups like real estate and litigation are slow. Unless you’re S&C, I think it’s reasonable to shift money to those who had the shitty years.

[Anonymous User]

Have any bay area firms moved yet

[Anonymous User]

It's not really a surprise that the non-truly-elite Big Law firms are putting in hours requirements to help themselves avoid paying out the extra bonus is it? In large part, these are the same firms that put in hours requirements for bonuses in general.

It's only the truly elite -- the DPWs, Cravaths, PWs, S&C, etc. -- that have absolutely no minimum hours requirements. That's part of what makes them more attractive and more sought-after firms to get offers from when you're a 2L doing recruiting. And sure, in practice at these firms you work just as hard, but they provide cushions in a slow year or if you're in a slow practice group. That's part of the allure. Other firms don't have that allure.

Why would we think that firms would flatten rather than reinforce this kind of hierarchical sorting during a pandemic?

Do you really not see the categorical difference between a general hours requirement (expected at a lot of firms) and an arbitrarily time-limited hours requirement that seems designed to screw people? I guess you can say we shouldn’t be surprised that a cheap firm like PH is doing that, but PH associates still have every right to be mad and looking to lateral imo.

Edit: Accidental anon, this is Elston Gunn.

[Anonymous User]

It's not really a surprise that the non-truly-elite Big Law firms are putting in hours requirements to help themselves avoid paying out the extra bonus is it? In large part, these are the same firms that put in hours requirements for bonuses in general.

It's only the truly elite -- the DPWs, Cravaths, PWs, S&C, etc. -- that have absolutely no minimum hours requirements. That's part of what makes them more attractive and more sought-after firms to get offers from when you're a 2L doing recruiting. And sure, in practice at these firms you work just as hard, but they provide cushions in a slow year or if you're in a slow practice group. That's part of the allure. Other firms don't have that allure.

Why would we think that firms would flatten rather than reinforce this kind of hierarchical sorting during a pandemic?

Do you really not see the categorical difference between a general hours requirement (expected at a lot of firms) and an arbitrarily time-limited hours requirement that seems designed to screw people? I guess you can say we shouldn’t be surprised that a cheap firm like PH is doing that, but PH associates still have every right to be mad and looking to lateral imo.

Edit: Accidental anon, this is Elston Gunn.

As an associate there, it is very demoralizing, especially since the time period seems aimed at ensuring more associates do not get the bonus rather than any motivational purposes. At least when they did this for summer bonuses they let associates earn that bonus if they hit their annual goal. The memo today didn’t include that. It comes off like they did not want us to actually get these special bonuses and it sucks.

[avenuem]

It's not really a surprise that the non-truly-elite Big Law firms are putting in hours requirements to help themselves avoid paying out the extra bonus is it? In large part, these are the same firms that put in hours requirements for bonuses in general.

It's only the truly elite -- the DPWs, Cravaths, PWs, S&C, etc. -- that have absolutely no minimum hours requirements. That's part of what makes them more attractive and more sought-after firms to get offers from when you're a 2L doing recruiting. And sure, in practice at these firms you work just as hard, but they provide cushions in a slow year or if you're in a slow practice group. That's part of the allure. Other firms don't have that allure.

Why would we think that firms would flatten rather than reinforce this kind of hierarchical sorting during a pandemic?

Do you really not see the categorical difference between a general hours requirement (expected at a lot of firms) and an arbitrarily time-limited hours requirement that seems designed to screw people? I guess you can say we shouldn’t be surprised that a cheap firm like PH is doing that, but PH associates still have every right to be mad and looking to lateral imo.

Edit: Accidental anon, this is Elston Gunn.

Pretty sure they see the difference and that was their point.

The firms below the cream of the crop can and do calculate the best period to use to minimize bonus payouts (see Paul Hastings) and then they announce. Reserve cash control 101.

[dyemond]

It's not really a surprise that the non-truly-elite Big Law firms are putting in hours requirements to help themselves avoid paying out the extra bonus is it? In large part, these are the same firms that put in hours requirements for bonuses in general.

It's only the truly elite -- the DPWs, Cravaths, PWs, S&C, etc. -- that have absolutely no minimum hours requirements. That's part of what makes them more attractive and more sought-after firms to get offers from when you're a 2L doing recruiting. And sure, in practice at these firms you work just as hard, but they provide cushions in a slow year or if you're in a slow practice group. That's part of the allure. Other firms don't have that allure.

Why would we think that firms would flatten rather than reinforce this kind of hierarchical sorting during a pandemic?

Do you really not see the categorical difference between a general hours requirement (expected at a lot of firms) and an arbitrarily time-limited hours requirement that seems designed to screw people? I guess you can say we shouldn’t be surprised that a cheap firm like PH is doing that, but PH associates still have every right to be mad and looking to lateral imo.

Edit: Accidental anon, this is Elston Gunn.

As an associate there, it is very demoralizing, especially since the time period seems aimed at ensuring more associates do not get the bonus rather than any motivational purposes. At least when they did this for summer bonuses they let associates earn that bonus if they hit their annual goal. The memo today didn’t include that. It comes off like they did not want us to actually get these special bonuses and it sucks.

Were you all busy March through August? That was when a ton of finance/cap markets practices at other shops were slammed -- not saying it's right, but given that that was the motivation for the bonuses in the first place seems like that's the motivation here, notwithstanding that they've clearly just become a "market" thing.

[Elston Gunn]

It's not really a surprise that the non-truly-elite Big Law firms are putting in hours requirements to help themselves avoid paying out the extra bonus is it? In large part, these are the same firms that put in hours requirements for bonuses in general.

It's only the truly elite -- the DPWs, Cravaths, PWs, S&C, etc. -- that have absolutely no minimum hours requirements. That's part of what makes them more attractive and more sought-after firms to get offers from when you're a 2L doing recruiting. And sure, in practice at these firms you work just as hard, but they provide cushions in a slow year or if you're in a slow practice group. That's part of the allure. Other firms don't have that allure.

Why would we think that firms would flatten rather than reinforce this kind of hierarchical sorting during a pandemic?

Do you really not see the categorical difference between a general hours requirement (expected at a lot of firms) and an arbitrarily time-limited hours requirement that seems designed to screw people? I guess you can say we shouldn’t be surprised that a cheap firm like PH is doing that, but PH associates still have every right to be mad and looking to lateral imo.

Edit: Accidental anon, this is Elston Gunn.

Pretty sure they see the difference and that was their point.

The firms below the cream of the crop can and do calculate the best period to use to minimize bonus payouts (see Paul Hastings) and then they announce. Reserve cash control 101.

There are plenty of firms with comparable profitability, “prestige”, and/or credentials of associates that don’t do stuff like this. Having an “oh you’re surprised?” response doesn’t seem very helpful to me.

[Anonymous User]

So, what's the rest of the V50 waiting for?

[12YrsAnAssociate]

So, what's the rest of the V50 waiting for?

In my opinion, cover. There are a lot of firms out there that are likely hoping against hope for some Baker McKenzie follows so they can do the same without getting lambasted as terrible cheap firms. If anything, we should all start troll TLS/Twitter/Insta accounts to blast Baker McKenzie 24-7 to make sure firms don't think they can get away with a BM follow.

[Anonymous User]

So, what's the rest of the V50 waiting for?

In my opinion, cover. There are a lot of firms out there that are likely hoping against hope for some Baker McKenzie follows so they can do the same without getting lambasted as terrible cheap firms. If anything, we should all start troll TLS/Twitter/Insta accounts to blast Baker McKenzie 24-7 to make sure firms don't think they can get away with a BM follow.

Doubt it. I don't think any firm has a reasonable claim that not paying COVID bonuses is market after CSM and many others throughout the V50 have moved.

I know some firms end the fiscal year on 12/31 (meaning December is a big collections month) and often announce bonuses in January after the $ comes in. I don't know why those firms would suddenly announce in December just because we want to hear about COVID bonuses. [anon because I'm at one of those firms]

What V50 firms that typically announce in late November/early December haven't announced yet? At the risk of reviving a fight from another thread, I suspect some of those firms might be waiting for most other firms to announce so they can tell their hurting clients they had no choice but to match.

[Anonymous User]

[Edit: deleted duplicate--mods please remove]

[dyemond]

So, what's the rest of the V50 waiting for?

In my opinion, cover. There are a lot of firms out there that are likely hoping against hope for some Baker McKenzie follows so they can do the same without getting lambasted as terrible cheap firms. If anything, we should all start troll TLS/Twitter/Insta accounts to blast Baker McKenzie 24-7 to make sure firms don't think they can get away with a BM follow.

Doubt it. I don't think any firm has a reasonable claim that not paying COVID bonuses is market after CSM and many others throughout the V50 have moved.

I know some firms end the fiscal year on 12/31 (meaning December is a big collections month) and often announce bonuses in January after the $ comes in. I don't know why those firms would suddenly announce in December just because we want to hear about COVID bonuses. [anon because I'm at one of those firms]

What V50 firms that typically announce in late November/early December haven't announced yet? At the risk of reviving a fight from another thread, I suspect some of those firms might be waiting for most other firms to announce so they can tell their hurting clients they had no choice but to match.

Probably matters if your firm's core practices have been up or not. I know someone at a v100 which has a huge RE practice and they are dead and have been since April. Not saying RE is dead generally but I'm guessing certain practices are sucking wind right now and if your shop is based on one of those practices, that's your basis.

The v10 has been slammed for 8 months now, so the bolded text above remains true for them but as much as people on TLS like to claim all firms are alike, past v15 or so I'm guessing there are pretty wild swings in how some shops have actually weathered everything.

[ChairmanKaga]

Doubt it. I don't think any firm has a reasonable claim that not paying COVID bonuses is market after CSM and many others throughout the V50 have moved.

I suppose the real question is whether the COVID bonuses will trigger a breaking of the tradition of firms in the V50/V100/whatever matching the "market" bonus scale set by Cravath or another abnormally wealthy firm. It's always been slightly odd that firms with a quarter of the RPL/PEP of Cravath feel obliged to pay their associates equally to Cravath associaties.

[Anonymous User]

Winston (V40) has signaled that it likely will not pay special bonuses, but they've kept the door open depending on what the "market" does. I agree with the comment above that they're waiting for cover from a peer firm. That said, historically our announcement comes like clockwork about ten days from now, so it will be interesting to see what they do if none of our "peer" firms have moved by then.

Either way, it will be telling. They've always taken pride in paying "top of the market" comp, and they won't have that claim if they don't do special bonuses. They've already started trying to position "COVID" bonuses as an anomaly unique to certain NYC centric firms -- but I don't think they expect us to actually believe that.

I agree with the poster above that these bonuses might finally break the dam after all these years. It's never made sense for the top 100 firms to have essentially identical comp (I know certain firms cheat here and there). The question will be where the dividing line is and what the key metrics are, and what effect the bifurcation has on laterals/recruiting.

[Anonymous User]

Winston (V40) has signaled that it likely will not pay special bonuses, but they've kept the door open depending on what the "market" does. I agree with the comment above that they're waiting for cover from a peer firm. That said, historically our announcement comes like clockwork about ten days from now, so it will be interesting to see what they do if none of our "peer" firms have moved by then.

Either way, it will be telling. They've always taken pride in paying "top of the market" comp, and they won't have that claim if they don't do special bonuses. They've already started trying to position "COVID" bonuses as an anomaly unique to certain NYC centric firms -- but I don't think they expect us to actually believe that.

I agree with the poster above that these bonuses might finally break the damn after all these years. It's never made sense for the top 100 firms to have essentially identical comp (I know certain firms cheat here and there). The question will be where the dividing line is and what the key metrics are, and what effect the bifurcation has on laterals/recruiting.

Do you think they may condition them on very high billables? I heard another firm (right around the V50 mark) hinted that the other day.

[Anonymous User]

Winston (V40) has signaled that it likely will not pay special bonuses, but they've kept the door open depending on what the "market" does. I agree with the comment above that they're waiting for cover from a peer firm. That said, historically our announcement comes like clockwork about ten days from now, so it will be interesting to see what they do if none of our "peer" firms have moved by then.

Either way, it will be telling. They've always taken pride in paying "top of the market" comp, and they won't have that claim if they don't do special bonuses. They've already started trying to position "COVID" bonuses as an anomaly unique to certain NYC centric firms -- but I don't think they expect us to actually believe that.

I agree with the poster above that these bonuses might finally break the damn after all these years. It's never made sense for the top 100 firms to have essentially identical comp (I know certain firms cheat here and there). The question will be where the dividing line is and what the key metrics are, and what effect the bifurcation has on laterals/recruiting.

Do you think they may condition them on very high billables? I heard another firm (right around the V50 mark) hinted that the other day.

I think that's highly unlikely--not how we operate. However, if it just happens to work out that a significant % of associates have not hit the 2000 minimum, I could see the firm deciding they can "afford" to pay special bonuses.

[Anonymous User]

Whatever happened with Cooley? Will they up their scale to match the DPW scale eventually? Not a Cooley lawyer, just curious I feel like they flew under the radar for awhile having not upped to the larger DPW covid scale.

A lot of people are going to be royally pissed if Cooley doesn't do the right thing and fix its previous decision.

[Anonymous User]

Whatever happened with Cooley? Will they up their scale to match the DPW scale eventually? Not a Cooley lawyer, just curious I feel like they flew under the radar for awhile having not upped to the larger DPW covid scale.

Cooley will almost certainly pay bonuses in February and will (as it always has) take into account what market is. Given Fenwick matched, hard to imagine Cooley won't do the same (minus the special bonus it already gave), though Cooley has generally done individualized bonuses in the past (some above market, some below, many at). [Anon for obvious reasons]

[Anonymous User]

Winston (V40) has signaled that it likely will not pay special bonuses, but they've kept the door open depending on what the "market" does. I agree with the comment above that they're waiting for cover from a peer firm. That said, historically our announcement comes like clockwork about ten days from now, so it will be interesting to see what they do if none of our "peer" firms have moved by then.

Either way, it will be telling. They've always taken pride in paying "top of the market" comp, and they won't have that claim if they don't do special bonuses. They've already started trying to position "COVID" bonuses as an anomaly unique to certain NYC centric firms -- but I don't think they expect us to actually believe that.

I agree with the poster above that these bonuses might finally break the dam after all these years. It's never made sense for the top 100 firms to have essentially identical comp (I know certain firms cheat here and there). The question will be where the dividing line is and what the key metrics are, and what effect the bifurcation has on laterals/recruiting.

Curious who has signaled this at Winston? Would think I'm in a fairly well connected practice group and have not heard this? Think Winston has tried more and more to position itself as an NYC firm (expects this to become the biggest office within the next few years, focused on growth in that office, etc.) so to not do this would be surprising to me.