Incoming Associates Getting Deferred Forum

[Anonymous User]

Orrick has not told incoming associates anything about additional stipends.

Edit: incoming* associates

Anon, have they told you anything/was there any communication, or did you just find out about deferral on ATL?

Yes, they sent an email re deferral.

[PeanutsNJam]

I'll make a bull case.

Markets are not only desperate to bounce back, but they’re (likely rightly) assured they’ll get substantial help from a (unified!) federal government, Fed, and legal system which will allow them to lay off substantial (blue-collar) workers before any corporate profits are touched.

The industries now largely affected are old-line industries (energy, retail) dependent on both hard assets and workers/customers operating in the physical world, and asset prices on these will bounce back (they already are! See huge Wednesday and Thursday New York REIT gains, global oil deal reached this weekend). US biotech VC funding is currently unaffected this quarter (see PitchBook). Finance, tech and healthcare firms enjoying nice bump in revenues from increased trading and tech usage (see Zoom) and vaccine research (see Gilead). Asian markets (especially high-tech ones and VC-driven sectors) are, for the most part, back in business. International corporate funding issues for US dollar now a non-issue due to unprecedentedly quick and expansive Fed intervention (see current cross-currency swap rates). US PE firms are now scarmbling to take advantage of low valuations (see new Airbnb debt deal).

Trump will take good care of finance, PE, and financial markets, who, per usual, will be the real winners. White-collar workers (including BigLaw) will be fine. The real sufferers of this pandemic, also per usual, will be the poor old, poor immuno-compromised, and laid-off workers, particularly in above old-line industries.

Suddenness (and novelty) of corona, quarantine, news cycle and politico ulterior motivations to force everyone inside are (somewhat) masking both severity and length of crisis among general public, and certainly masking such severity as it affects the "financial market" economy.

TL;DR: People panic too much and don’t question authority/agendas enough, especially legal people. People are shitty risk assessors, especially legal people. And would much rather (irrationally) minimize risk than (rationally) maximize gain. I can't wait to disrupt this market.

No one made a bear case, no one was asking for your reddit level financial analysis. We have wallstreetbets for that. The financial discussion is relevant solely as it relates to the degree of uncertainty that exists for law firm management committees who are trying to walk the line between well-placed reassurance, and promising things that they may not ultimately deliver.

Let’s not let this thread devolve (again) into bears vs bulls, boomers vs millennials, the cost of living in NY or whatever other pet rant you have bottled up.

Waiting to see anon's calls

[LHand1993]

I'll make a bull case.

Markets are not only desperate to bounce back, but they’re (likely rightly) assured they’ll get substantial help from a (unified!) federal government, Fed, and legal system which will allow them to lay off substantial (blue-collar) workers before any corporate profits are touched.

The industries now largely affected are old-line industries (energy, retail) dependent on both hard assets and workers/customers operating in the physical world, and asset prices on these will bounce back (they already are! See huge Wednesday and Thursday New York REIT gains, global oil deal reached this weekend). US biotech VC funding is currently unaffected this quarter (see PitchBook). Finance, tech and healthcare firms enjoying nice bump in revenues from increased trading and tech usage (see Zoom) and vaccine research (see Gilead). Asian markets (especially high-tech ones and VC-driven sectors) are, for the most part, back in business. International corporate funding issues for US dollar now a non-issue due to unprecedentedly quick and expansive Fed intervention (see current cross-currency swap rates). US PE firms are now scarmbling to take advantage of low valuations (see new Airbnb debt deal).

Trump will take good care of finance, PE, and financial markets, who, per usual, will be the real winners. White-collar workers (including BigLaw) will be fine. The real sufferers of this pandemic, also per usual, will be the poor old, poor immuno-compromised, and laid-off workers, particularly in above old-line industries.

Suddenness (and novelty) of corona, quarantine, news cycle and politico ulterior motivations to force everyone inside are (somewhat) masking both severity and length of crisis among general public, and certainly masking such severity as it affects the "financial market" economy.

TL;DR: People panic too much and don’t question authority/agendas enough, especially legal people. People are shitty risk assessors, especially legal people. And would much rather (irrationally) minimize risk than (rationally) maximize gain. I can't wait to disrupt this market.

No one made a bear case, no one was asking for your reddit level financial analysis. We have wallstreetbets for that. The financial discussion is relevant solely as it relates to the degree of uncertainty that exists for law firm management committees who are trying to walk the line between well-placed reassurance, and promising things that they may not ultimately deliver.

Let’s not let this thread devolve (again) into bears vs bulls, boomers vs millennials, the cost of living in NY or whatever other pet rant you have bottled up.

Waiting to see anon's calls

While I agree the thread shouldn't devolve in bears vs bulls, I think you're overlooking some of the important aspects of this downturn that will impact the economy and law firms as a whole. We've been in a 10 year bull market and the longer a bull market, the more and more risk gets built into that markets. FInancing arrangements become more and more covenant light and everything gets more and more leveraged. When cash flow stops, all that leverage that seemed like a no brainer a few months ago accelerates problems from both lenders and borrowers' perspectives. There are always bubbles waiting to be popped when the market has been as good as it has for as long as it has. Thinking that this is just about "getting people back to work and opening up the economy again" is an overly simplistic view of how our economy works. Nobody learned anything from 08. The same financial instruments that caused the housing bubble to pop are still being used, they're just labeled differently.

To tie this into the discussion in this thread, this all means that this is a very uncertain and fragile issue when it comes to law firms. Once people start going back to work (and god knows when that will actually be), the problems facing the economy aren't going to be solved--there could very well be severe economic fallout well after that occurs.

[PeanutsNJam]

I'm just waiting on some FAT call options after anon's claim of disrupting the market lol

[addie1412]

For whatever it's worth, HLS' OCS is doing a Q&A for 3Ls right now, and we were told they highly doubt offers will be revoked at large firms based off of what happened in the last recession, but expecting deferrals + advances everywhere.

[basketofbread]

For whatever it's worth, HLS' OCS is doing a Q&A for 3Ls right now, and we were told they highly doubt offers will be revoked at large firms based off of what happened in the last recession, but expecting deferrals + advances everywhere.

Thanks! Can you share more details? Do they mean *because* of what happened in the last recession?

[addie1412]

For whatever it's worth, HLS' OCS is doing a Q&A for 3Ls right now, and we were told they highly doubt offers will be revoked at large firms based off of what happened in the last recession, but expecting deferrals + advances everywhere.

Thanks! Can you share more details? Do they mean *because* of what happened in the last recession?

They just said that the big firms generally didn't revoke offers for incoming associates during the last recession. This is pretty in line with what I've read about firms' response in '08/'09 - up to year-long deferrals for incoming associates but not a lot of offer rescission among the "top" firms.

Here's one source: https://money.cnn.com/2009/04/30/news/e ... deferrals/

"Over 100 large firms, or firms with 200 or more attorneys, have delayed the start date for at least a portion of their incoming first-year associates, according to Above the Law, a blog covering the legal industry. The majority of those firms have delayed start dates into 2010, and provided some financial assistance to those on standby, Above the Law said, a move that doesn't come cheap.

Some students have been offered hefty stipends of up to $80,000, and even full benefits in some cases."

Obviously can't extrapolate too much from what happened last time, but it's slightly reassuring.

[trusk13]

For whatever it's worth, HLS' OCS is doing a Q&A for 3Ls right now, and we were told they highly doubt offers will be revoked at large firms based off of what happened in the last recession, but expecting deferrals + advances everywhere.

Thanks! Can you share more details? Do they mean *because* of what happened in the last recession?

They just said that the big firms generally didn't revoke offers for incoming associates during the last recession. This is pretty in line with what I've read about firms' response in '08/'09 - up to year-long deferrals for incoming associates but not a lot of offer rescission among the "top" firms.

Here's one source: https://money.cnn.com/2009/04/30/news/e ... deferrals/

"Over 100 large firms, or firms with 200 or more attorneys, have delayed the start date for at least a portion of their incoming first-year associates, according to Above the Law, a blog covering the legal industry. The majority of those firms have delayed start dates into 2010, and provided some financial assistance to those on standby, Above the Law said, a move that doesn't come cheap.

Some students have been offered hefty stipends of up to $80,000, and even full benefits in some cases."

Obviously can't extrapolate too much from what happened last time, but it's slightly reassuring.

What happens if you take a stipend for a deferred year but then end up choosing to work elsewhere a year from now (your choice; not a revoked offer or anything along those lines)? Will the firm seek to collect any of that $80k?

[Sackboy]

What happens if you take a stipend for a deferred year but then end up choosing to work elsewhere a year from now (your choice; not a revoked offer or anything along those lines)? Will the firm seek to collect any of that $80k?

It depends. If your firm doesn't attach a clawback provision to your stipend, you're likely off scot-free. If it does, you could be on the hook for the entire amount.

[trusk13]

What happens if you take a stipend for a deferred year but then end up choosing to work elsewhere a year from now (your choice; not a revoked offer or anything along those lines)? Will the firm seek to collect any of that $80k?

It depends. If your firm doesn't attach a clawback provision to your stipend, you're likely off scot-free. If it does, you could be on the hook for the entire amount.

Thanks, but that was my underlying question. I guess I should have been more specific. Do most firms attach a clawback provision to the stipend? Some, all, few firms?

[cavalier1138]

What happens if you take a stipend for a deferred year but then end up choosing to work elsewhere a year from now (your choice; not a revoked offer or anything along those lines)? Will the firm seek to collect any of that $80k?

It depends. If your firm doesn't attach a clawback provision to your stipend, you're likely off scot-free. If it does, you could be on the hook for the entire amount.

Thanks, but that was my underlying question. I guess I should have been more specific. Do most firms attach a clawback provision to the stipend? Some, all, few firms?

If it's anything like summer stipends for new associates, there will be a clawback provision. I can't imagine a firm not including it for stipends as large as the ones under discussion.

[boxie]

Thanks, but that was my underlying question. I guess I should have been more specific. Do most firms attach a clawback provision to the stipend? Some, all, few firms?

Clawback provisions are pretty standard across bar study stipends/lateral signing bonuses/moving allowances/etc, so it's pretty likely there would be one. But I've seen laterals quit before their clawback period ended and the firm didn't enforce the term - they've got better things to do than sue lawyers over a stipend. Still, regardless of whether there is a clawback or not, it wouldn't be a great look to take a deferral stipend with no intention of ever starting at the firm.

[LSATWiz.com]

If you're going into your firm's debt collection department, this is a unique opportunity to both get the stipend and rack up billable hours by going through the motions to serve process on yourself.

[ChickenSalad]

If you're going into your firm's debt collection department, this is a unique opportunity to both get the stipend and rack up billable hours by going through the motions to serve process on yourself.

If you can’t complete service, just do it by publication and humiliate the deadbeat

[LSATWiz.com]

If you're going into your firm's debt collection department, this is a unique opportunity to both get the stipend and rack up billable hours by going through the motions to serve process on yourself.

If you can’t complete service, just do it by publication and humiliate the deadbeat

As if the bio page isn’t humiliating enough.

[objctnyrhnr]

If you're going into your firm's debt collection department, this is a unique opportunity to both get the stipend and rack up billable hours by going through the motions to serve process on yourself.

If you can’t complete service, just do it by publication and humiliate the deadbeat

Props to both of these comments

[2020Graduate]

"Gibson Dunn has no plans to rescind any of your offers to start with us as new associates . . . a lot is in flux with regard to timing."

YES GIBSON. WE LOVE YOU. I LOVE YOU AND I'M NOT EVEN GOING TO YOU. THANK YOU. OTHER V10s, PLEASE FOLLOW.

[Sporty1911]

Really don't think incoming associates for V100 firms have to worry about getting offers rescinded this time around too much (obviously, not guaranteeing anything--things could get much worse, and then we would). I do think, however, that a majority of the V100 will end up deferring start dates into early 2021 because of Bar exams being pushed back.

I think there is every chance the US will have a test+trace system in place by the summer/early fall, which will go quite a way in keeping community spread from occurring and would allow offices to open back up and for things to return to some semblance of "normal" (won't be anything like pre-coronavirus, but it will be much more normal than right now). I think we could most likely start on-time under those circumstances, but I think unfortunately that the delay of the Bar will end up pushing firms to defer start dates into 2021 to avoid as much uncertainty as they can.

I could also be totally wrong, and we could have a test+trace system working in June and all of us could be starting our new jobs in September/October. Who knows. This situation absolutely sucks, but we need to try and make the best of it. I just think we need to try and stop being such law students right now and try not to speculate about things out of our control, be thankful that at the moment we actually have some kind of employment in-hand and that it will take things going really, really south to lose that, and do our absolute best over the things that we can control right now--like passing our last semester of classes and crushing the bar exam. No, none of that will make us feel all rosy and happy, but it will certainly help more than speculating about things totally out of our control.

[LHand1993]

Really don't think incoming associates for V100 firms have to worry about getting offers rescinded this time around too much (obviously, not guaranteeing anything--things could get much worse, and then we would). I do think, however, that a majority of the V100 will end up deferring start dates into early 2021 because of Bar exams being pushed back.

I think there is every chance the US will have a test+trace system in place by the summer/early fall, which will go quite a way in keeping community spread from occurring and would allow offices to open back up and for things to return to some semblance of "normal" (won't be anything like pre-coronavirus, but it will be much more normal than right now). I think we could most likely start on-time under those circumstances, but I think unfortunately that the delay of the Bar will end up pushing firms to defer start dates into 2021 to avoid as much uncertainty as they can.

I could also be totally wrong, and we could have a test+trace system working in June and all of us could be starting our new jobs in September/October. Who knows. This situation absolutely sucks, but we need to try and make the best of it. I just think we need to try and stop being such law students right now and try not to speculate about things out of our control, be thankful that at the moment we actually have some kind of employment in-hand and that it will take things going really, really south to lose that, and do our absolute best over the things that we can control right now--like passing our last semester of classes and crushing the bar exam. No, none of that will make us feel all rosy and happy, but it will certainly help more than speculating about things totally out of our control.

I generally agree--I don't think *knocks on wood* rescinded offers are something firms are contemplating. As much as I don't want a deferred start date, it's the anxiety of not knowing at this point that's killing me. I almost would rather know for sure I'm starting in January and start planning now than be in this limbo much longer. I say almost because I know I'll be pissed if come Sept/Oct, things are normal enough/the economy hasn't entirely collapsed that we could have easily started working.

And yes this is complaining about the same uncertainty everyone else is dealing with and there's nothing we can do about it. But we've had our last semester in law school basically canceled, no graduation, and our bar exam pushed back. We're fully licensed to vent our frustration.

[LHand1993]

Kelly Drye has deferred incoming associates, the ATL article doesn't specify when they will start.

https://abovethelaw.com/2020/04/am-law- ... art-dates/

[Flarmanarnar]

Kelly Drye has deferred incoming associates, the ATL article doesn't specify when they will start.

https://abovethelaw.com/2020/04/am-law- ... art-dates/

Ooooooof. I'm sure there will be more firms that postpone start dates because of logistics/bar exam postponements and it's honestly not the worst thing in the world to be deferred (I would rather be deferred than laid off lol).

[Sporty1911]

Really don't think incoming associates for V100 firms have to worry about getting offers rescinded this time around too much (obviously, not guaranteeing anything--things could get much worse, and then we would). I do think, however, that a majority of the V100 will end up deferring start dates into early 2021 because of Bar exams being pushed back.

I think there is every chance the US will have a test+trace system in place by the summer/early fall, which will go quite a way in keeping community spread from occurring and would allow offices to open back up and for things to return to some semblance of "normal" (won't be anything like pre-coronavirus, but it will be much more normal than right now). I think we could most likely start on-time under those circumstances, but I think unfortunately that the delay of the Bar will end up pushing firms to defer start dates into 2021 to avoid as much uncertainty as they can.

I could also be totally wrong, and we could have a test+trace system working in June and all of us could be starting our new jobs in September/October. Who knows. This situation absolutely sucks, but we need to try and make the best of it. I just think we need to try and stop being such law students right now and try not to speculate about things out of our control, be thankful that at the moment we actually have some kind of employment in-hand and that it will take things going really, really south to lose that, and do our absolute best over the things that we can control right now--like passing our last semester of classes and crushing the bar exam. No, none of that will make us feel all rosy and happy, but it will certainly help more than speculating about things totally out of our control.

I generally agree--I don't think *knocks on wood* rescinded offers are something firms are contemplating. As much as I don't want a deferred start date, it's the anxiety of not knowing at this point that's killing me. I almost would rather know for sure I'm starting in January and start planning now than be in this limbo much longer. I say almost because I know I'll be pissed if come Sept/Oct, things are normal enough/the economy hasn't entirely collapsed that we could have easily started working.

And yes this is complaining about the same uncertainty everyone else is dealing with and there's nothing we can do about it. But we've had our last semester in law school basically canceled, no graduation, and our bar exam pushed back. We're fully licensed to vent our frustration.

I agree that we are fully licensed to vent our frustrations. What gets to me, though, is when that venting of frustrations evolves into negative speculation about how much our lives are going to suck. I don't think we will have offers rescinded, but I'm still genuinely terrified that things could go south and we end up without jobs. Pandemics pose unique economic and health uncertainties that are scary because our modern, technological society hasn't dealt with them before, so I get it and am in the same boat. I still think we should try everything we can not to devolve into speculating about worse-case scenarios.

That being said, I think the reason we are still in such a state of limbo is because there remains a chance that we are all going to be able to start our jobs on schedule. There is a scientifically prove, data driven method for reducing community spread and bringing the virus under some semblance of control (test+trace). It is clearly the best method to restart the economy, so I am fully confident that we will get there sometime in the summer/early fall (I think this holds true regardless of how you view the current administration). Firms are holding firm right now and waiting to see if this will be the case and how the next month or so plays out, so I think right now, no news is actually good news.

Again, this sucks big time. I had plans to move to DC (location of job) in August and move-in with my SO. We have absolutely no idea if we will still be able to do that, what our budget will be (will my salary be cut? Will I be deferred until January? If so, how will we cover rent until then?), or when we will have answers to those questions. But I think we all just need to try and take it as it comes and hope for the best.

[lawschoolnewbie2018]

Really don't think incoming associates for V100 firms have to worry about getting offers rescinded this time around too much (obviously, not guaranteeing anything--things could get much worse, and then we would). I do think, however, that a majority of the V100 will end up deferring start dates into early 2021 because of Bar exams being pushed back.

I think there is every chance the US will have a test+trace system in place by the summer/early fall, which will go quite a way in keeping community spread from occurring and would allow offices to open back up and for things to return to some semblance of "normal" (won't be anything like pre-coronavirus, but it will be much more normal than right now). I think we could most likely start on-time under those circumstances, but I think unfortunately that the delay of the Bar will end up pushing firms to defer start dates into 2021 to avoid as much uncertainty as they can.

I could also be totally wrong, and we could have a test+trace system working in June and all of us could be starting our new jobs in September/October. Who knows. This situation absolutely sucks, but we need to try and make the best of it. I just think we need to try and stop being such law students right now and try not to speculate about things out of our control, be thankful that at the moment we actually have some kind of employment in-hand and that it will take things going really, really south to lose that, and do our absolute best over the things that we can control right now--like passing our last semester of classes and crushing the bar exam. No, none of that will make us feel all rosy and happy, but it will certainly help more than speculating about things totally out of our control.

I generally agree--I don't think *knocks on wood* rescinded offers are something firms are contemplating. As much as I don't want a deferred start date, it's the anxiety of not knowing at this point that's killing me. I almost would rather know for sure I'm starting in January and start planning now than be in this limbo much longer. I say almost because I know I'll be pissed if come Sept/Oct, things are normal enough/the economy hasn't entirely collapsed that we could have easily started working.

And yes this is complaining about the same uncertainty everyone else is dealing with and there's nothing we can do about it. But we've had our last semester in law school basically canceled, no graduation, and our bar exam pushed back. We're fully licensed to vent our frustration.

I agree that we are fully licensed to vent our frustrations. What gets to me, though, is when that venting of frustrations evolves into negative speculation about how much our lives are going to suck. I don't think we will have offers rescinded, but I'm still genuinely terrified that things could go south and we end up without jobs. Pandemics pose unique economic and health uncertainties that are scary because our modern, technological society hasn't dealt with them before, so I get it and am in the same boat. I still think we should try everything we can not to devolve into speculating about worse-case scenarios.

That being said, I think the reason we are still in such a state of limbo is because there remains a chance that we are all going to be able to start our jobs on schedule. There is a scientifically prove, data driven method for reducing community spread and bringing the virus under some semblance of control (test+trace). It is clearly the best method to restart the economy, so I am fully confident that we will get there sometime in the summer/early fall (I think this holds true regardless of how you view the current administration). Firms are holding firm right now and waiting to see if this will be the case and how the next month or so plays out, so I think right now, no news is actually good news.

Again, this sucks big time. I had plans to move to DC (location of job) in August and move-in with my SO. We have absolutely no idea if we will still be able to do that, what our budget will be (will my salary be cut? Will I be deferred until January? If so, how will we cover rent until then?), or when we will have answers to those questions. But I think we all just need to try and take it as it comes and hope for the best.

I agree - I am in a similar situation where I am moving to a different state and I had planned my lease ending, etc. to all tie into that, so the uncertainty makes it really hard to plan. Things like that are where the most stress is coming from for me. Also, I wouldn't move to said state at all obviously if for some reason my offer was rescinded, so I am hoping I don't get into a situation where I take the UBE and then have to stay in California because my offer got rescinded, and then take the CA bar too...

[Anonymous User]

LW told us about three weeks ago that our stipends would be processed April 3 and hitting around April 15 via direct deposit. No further updates on April 3, though.

Summer stipend came through today

[Anonymous User]

Hogan Lovells has deferred start dates until January 2021 and will "provide [incoming summers] with a stipend to help them manage through the autumn."