What the hell is going on Forum

[El Pollito]

Your school matters a lot and always will. Nice try Cardozo career services anon.

[Anonymous User]

Maybe it's feast or famine? I'm barely above median at my t14, straight through, male, not URM, with 16 callbacks (2/4 DC screeners). All my friends have done as well or better.

lol, mentioning the words "barely above median" and "male" and "white" as if being an above-average white male is some kind of disadvantage and you got 16 callbacks despite this 'disadvantage', good for you

Firms are targeting URMs and women because they are image-conscious and their partnerdoms are overwhelmingly white male. I really don't think median white guys are a hot commodity right now (unless it's bro culture).

LOL multiple interviewers have explicitly compared me with their wife...

Did you get a CB?

Nope

[Anonymous User]

LOL multiple interviewers have explicitly compared me with their wife...

This cuts both ways. I've been compared with many husbands.

None of my screeners compared me to a spouse... I knew I fucking sucked at interviewing.

[Anonymous User]

LOL multiple interviewers have explicitly compared me with their wife...

This cuts both ways. I've been compared with many husbands.

ETA: also compared with several wives based on my interest so mine may be more of a grain of salt type thing

Did those husbands functionally retire after they started having kids at age 25

[RaceJudicata]

Very happy with Fordham experience. I know people say T14 or bust, but a huge number of Fordham students (even those outside of top 1/3 and Law Review) seemed to be getting callbacks and offers.

I was talking to a V30 partner at a CCN reception and he was talking about how the T14 or bust is BS and how he and his firm are increasingly looking for driven, ambitious students from other schools. He actually referred to Fordham specifically.

I wouldn't use this anecdote as some sort of trend in NY firms hiring less out of T14. At the large NYC firm I summered at, various partners, especially the partners who came from non-T14 schools, emphasized the importance of school prestige. Fordham was mentioned at a number of lunches, but not in the positive light mentioned above.

There were even instances where a partner would specifically ask for a "top school" summer to go with him/her to a negotiation or whatever because the opposing firm was bringing a summer from a brand name school. I specifically remember a G-Town summer working with a partner on a deal for a month, only to have the said partner ask recruiting to grab another summer (and the recruiting dept. sent a feeler out for availability to summers at higher ranked schools) to go meet the opposing firm. This was the most extreme case I saw this summer... and I was surprised that even GTown didn't cut it for this partner.

I am extremely thankful for my firm.

ETA: I love the analysis -- "I wouldn't use this anecdote as some sort of trend...but here is another anecdote that is more representative"

[Anonymous User]

LOL multiple interviewers have explicitly compared me with their wife...

This cuts both ways. I've been compared with many husbands.

ETA: also compared with several wives based on my interest so mine may be more of a grain of salt type thing

I think it might also be that firms are trying to relate to you or be more humanizing. Saying "my coworker also likes X" keeps the focus on the firm and work. Saying "My spouse also worked in Y" shifts the focus to a person with a shared experience.

ETA: Looking back on it, my last screener also compared me to his wife...

[Anonymous User]

I am of Asian descent.

There is no doubt in my mind, the bro act works... especially after I tell them I was in a non-ethnic fraternity. The body language and topic of conversation almost immediately change. If somehow I fail to bring on the bro act, they just assume I am another uptight Asian kid that only wants to talk about work and my credentials.

I had the same experiences during banking interviews in undergrad, even with non-white people.

I am of Asian descent.

There is no doubt in my mind, the bro act works... especially after I tell them I was in a non-ethnic fraternity. The body language and topic of conversation almost immediately change. If somehow I fail to bring on the bro act, they just assume I am another uptight Asian kid that only wants to talk about work and my credentials.

I had the same experiences during banking interviews in undergrad, even with non-white people.

Yeah I'm AA URM, non ethnic fraternity "bro". I feel like it's given me a huge leg up w/ that double factor

[Anonymous User]

.

[Anonymous User]

-Maybe this was the class that got into law school with the lowest LSAT, GPA average, work-experience, personality in the last decade and are therefore not desirable to law firms in general. Maybe schools are finally paying for their blind acceptances purely based on numbers.

is this true?

I don't think so but obviously this anon has other personal issues to work out

Think what you want, this is as low LSAT/GPA numbers have been in years. Student quality has correspondingly fell over that time. Not so dramatically in the T14 necessarily, but significantly in lower ranked schools.

Even look at T14 GULC as an example.
http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/gulc/2015/

They've let in every warm body with a 167+ this past year. To compensate, they've shored up the class with a slightly higher GPA median. Personally I've seen people admitted from barely accredited undergraduate institutions that give out A+'s like candy.

When 95% of admissions so acutely is based off a 100 question test and inflated GPAs from poppycock institutions, you're gonna get plenty of bad apples no self-respecting law firm is going to pay $180,000 to.

Are you even a law student? Do you practice? Ask any practicing attorney and they'll tell you that there are many things that can determine someone's quality as an attorney--and UG GPA & LSAT are not one of those things

mid-level interviewer from a top firm here. i've got several OCIs under my belt over the last few years, and i'll say this. sure, we don't know about a particular candidate's LSAT score. and we don't really care about their undergraduate GPA. but i just got back from a t-20 OCI and i just saw, easily, the least impressive crop of candidates i've ever seen.

we had multiple cover letters with the wrong firm name. we had multiple people who said they wanted to practice X in an office where we only do Y. we had one guy who couldn't make eye contact tell us he wanted to do litigation. we had someone who flat out could not speak english. and this was at my law school--so i wanted to cut it some slack. but it was BAD.

look, maybe we just got unlucky with the lottery. or maybe my firm suddenly has a bad reputation that i don't know about that weakened our pre-select crop. but, really, the simplest and most likely explanation is that our interview slots are now being filled by less attractive candidates due to the falling admissions standards at the school.

btw - we gave one call-back from my room of ~20 interviews, and it was to somebody that probably already has 10-20 callbacks. normally, we'd expect to give 4-5. i don't know what we'll do to fill the ranks, but i got the distinct impression from my partner co-interviewer that we might start putting fewer resources into OCIs outside the top 5-10 schools.

[Anonymous User]

I am of Asian descent.

There is no doubt in my mind, the bro act works... especially after I tell them I was in a non-ethnic fraternity. The body language and topic of conversation almost immediately change. If somehow I fail to bring on the bro act, they just assume I am another uptight Asian kid that only wants to talk about work and my credentials.

I had the same experiences during banking interviews in undergrad, even with non-white people.

Maybe it works but its definitely not necessary. I'm Asian as well and definitely don't have a "bro act." My resume screams public interest and I think I come off as a little nerdy if anything. Still managed to do pretty well with my screeners. I don't think most of my interviewers came off as bro-ey either (some did, but still got CBs from them).

[Anonymous User]

Maybe it's feast or famine? I'm barely above median at my t14, straight through, male, not URM, with 16 callbacks (2/4 DC screeners). All my friends have done as well or better.

lol, mentioning the words "barely above median" and "male" and "white" as if being an above-average white male is some kind of disadvantage and you got 16 callbacks despite this 'disadvantage', good for you

Firms are targeting URMs and women because they are image-conscious and their partnerdoms are overwhelmingly white male. I really don't think median white guys are a hot commodity right now (unless it's bro culture).

Not true. All the people I know at the T14 with 8+ callbacks are white males. I'm a URM woman with zero CBs and top 20% grades. Unfortunately you all are still seen to be better lawyers. Firms don't actively recruit URMs, just a token number.

[Nebby]

-Maybe this was the class that got into law school with the lowest LSAT, GPA average, work-experience, personality in the last decade and are therefore not desirable to law firms in general. Maybe schools are finally paying for their blind acceptances purely based on numbers.

is this true?

I don't think so but obviously this anon has other personal issues to work out

Think what you want, this is as low LSAT/GPA numbers have been in years. Student quality has correspondingly fell over that time. Not so dramatically in the T14 necessarily, but significantly in lower ranked schools.

Even look at T14 GULC as an example.
http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/gulc/2015/

They've let in every warm body with a 167+ this past year. To compensate, they've shored up the class with a slightly higher GPA median. Personally I've seen people admitted from barely accredited undergraduate institutions that give out A+'s like candy.

When 95% of admissions so acutely is based off a 100 question test and inflated GPAs from poppycock institutions, you're gonna get plenty of bad apples no self-respecting law firm is going to pay $180,000 to.

Are you even a law student? Do you practice? Ask any practicing attorney and they'll tell you that there are many things that can determine someone's quality as an attorney--and UG GPA & LSAT are not one of those things

mid-level interviewer from a top firm here. i've got several OCIs under my belt over the last few years, and i'll say this. sure, we don't know about a particular candidate's LSAT score. and we don't really care about their undergraduate GPA. but i just got back from a t-20 OCI and i just saw, easily, the least impressive crop of candidates i've ever seen.

we had multiple cover letters with the wrong firm name. we had multiple people who said they wanted to practice X in an office where we only do Y. we had one guy who couldn't make eye contact tell us he wanted to do litigation. we had someone who flat out could not speak english. and this was at my law school--so i wanted to cut it some slack. but it was BAD.

look, maybe we just got unlucky with the lottery. or maybe my firm suddenly has a bad reputation that i don't know about that weakened our pre-select crop. but, really, the simplest and most likely explanation is that our interview slots are now being filled by less attractive candidates due to the falling admissions standards at the school.

btw - we gave one call-back from my room of ~20 interviews, and it was to somebody that probably already has 10-20 callbacks. normally, we'd expect to give 4-5. i don't know what we'll do to fill the ranks, but i got the distinct impression from my partner co-interviewer that we might start putting fewer resources into OCIs outside the top 5-10 schools.

That's rough. I assume they were all pre-select?

[Nebby]

Maybe it's feast or famine? I'm barely above median at my t14, straight through, male, not URM, with 16 callbacks (2/4 DC screeners). All my friends have done as well or better.

lol, mentioning the words "barely above median" and "male" and "white" as if being an above-average white male is some kind of disadvantage and you got 16 callbacks despite this 'disadvantage', good for you

Firms are targeting URMs and women because they are image-conscious and their partnerdoms are overwhelmingly white male. I really don't think median white guys are a hot commodity right now (unless it's bro culture).

Sounds like low energy excuses. You should get better and not make up excuses

[Anonymous User]

we had multiple cover letters with the wrong firm name. we had multiple people who said they wanted to practice X in an office where we only do Y. we had one guy who couldn't make eye contact tell us he wanted to do litigation. we had someone who flat out could not speak english. and this was at my law school--so i wanted to cut it some slack. but it was BAD.

look, maybe we just got unlucky with the lottery. or maybe my firm suddenly has a bad reputation that i don't know about that weakened our pre-select crop. but, really, the simplest and most likely explanation is that our interview slots are now being filled by less attractive candidates due to the falling admissions standards at the school.

btw - we gave one call-back from my room of ~20 interviews, and it was to somebody that probably already has 10-20 callbacks. normally, we'd expect to give 4-5. i don't know what we'll do to fill the ranks, but i got the distinct impression from my partner co-interviewer that we might start putting fewer resources into OCIs outside the top 5-10 schools.

feel free to tell us the office. i can write the correct name on a cover letter and i'll make eye contact while i tell you i want to practice something you do in your office (idc what that is)

[Anonymous User]

..

[DELG]

I can't help but feel that being a white male with slightly above average grades is hurting me, which sucks so much- I feel like I am less "white" than most of the minorities that are interviewing- I am third generation Greek, speak greek, in touch with my culture and customs, and not wealthy compared to many "ethnic" minorities whose families have been in the U.S. for far longer and are much better off than I

Your feeling is wrong HTH

[Anonymous User]

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[Anonymous User]

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[Nebby]

I can't help but feel that being a white male with slightly above average grades is hurting me, which sucks so much- I feel like I am less "white" than most of the minorities that are interviewing- I am third generation Greek, speak greek, in touch with my culture and customs, and not wealthy compared to many "ethnic" minorities whose families have been in the U.S. for far longer and are much better off than I

Sounds like your life is an analogy to your ancestral country

Perhaps it's the average grades and less than stellar interview skills?

[Atmosphere]

I can't help but feel that being a white male with slightly above average grades is hurting me, which sucks so much- I feel like I am less "white" than most of the minorities that are interviewing- I am third generation Greek, speak greek, in touch with my culture and customs, and not wealthy compared to many "ethnic" minorities whose families have been in the U.S. for far longer and are much better off than I

LJL. Cry me a river. This thread is turning into trash quickly. Inb4 "poor whites deserve AA more than upper middle class URMS!!!1111"

[Pokemon]

I can't help but feel that being a white male with slightly above average grades is hurting me, which sucks so much- I feel like I am less "white" than most of the minorities that are interviewing- I am third generation Greek, speak greek, in touch with my culture and customs, and not wealthy compared to many "ethnic" minorities whose families have been in the U.S. for far longer and are much better off than I

Wtf? That is not what is hurting you. I would have understood your point if you were fresh of the boat but you are a third generation. I would not even call you Greek.

[Anonymous User]

Maybe it's feast or famine? I'm barely above median at my t14, straight through, male, not URM, with 16 callbacks (2/4 DC screeners). All my friends have done as well or better.

lol, mentioning the words "barely above median" and "male" and "white" as if being an above-average white male is some kind of disadvantage and you got 16 callbacks despite this 'disadvantage', good for you

Firms are targeting URMs and women because they are image-conscious and their partnerdoms are overwhelmingly white male. I really don't think median white guys are a hot commodity right now (unless it's bro culture).

Not true. All the people I know at the T14 with 8+ callbacks are white males. I'm a URM woman with zero CBs and top 20% grades. Unfortunately you all are still seen to be better lawyers. Firms don't actively recruit URMs, just a token number.

Anecdotal, but I'm asian, lower T14, top 20%, and have 8+ CBs.

[Anonymous User]

I can't help but feel that being a white male with slightly above average grades is hurting me, which sucks so much- I feel like I am less "white" than most of the minorities that are interviewing- I am third generation Greek, speak greek, in touch with my culture and customs, and not wealthy compared to many "ethnic" minorities whose families have been in the U.S. for far longer and are much better off than I

Wtf? That is not what is hurting you. I would have understood your point if you were fresh of the boat but you are a third generation. I would not even call you Greek.

LOL-I don't agree with either of these posts, wtf is going on

[Bluem_11]

Racism and sexism obviously still exist. I feel bad for anyone who may (this is speculative on everyone's parts) be affected by this in your job hunt. Hopefully you become a partner one day and can become an agent of change.

Meanwhile, you can still mass mail until your fingers fall off.

[Anonymous User]

Maybe it's feast or famine? I'm barely above median at my t14, straight through, male, not URM, with 16 callbacks (2/4 DC screeners). All my friends have done as well or better.

lol, mentioning the words "barely above median" and "male" and "white" as if being an above-average white male is some kind of disadvantage and you got 16 callbacks despite this 'disadvantage', good for you

Firms are targeting URMs and women because they are image-conscious and their partnerdoms are overwhelmingly white male. I really don't think median white guys are a hot commodity right now (unless it's bro culture).

Not true. All the people I know at the T14 with 8+ callbacks are white males. I'm a URM woman with zero CBs and top 20% grades. Unfortunately you all are still seen to be better lawyers. Firms don't actively recruit URMs, just a token number.

Anecdotal, but I'm asian, lower T14, top 20%, and have 8+ CBs.

Also Asian, median at CCN, 8+ CBs.

ITT people complaining about striking out because they are white. People complaining about striking out because they are not white.