I got Biglaw from T2 AND YOU CAN TOO Forum

[OneMoreLawHopeful]

semester guy is at Hastings, but has a good idea re: where he will be in the class.

As for your grades, I don't really care, but you stated that kids at the top of the curve don't really deserve to be there; ergo you think others are somehow more deserving, and I want to know your basis for this.

NO I DIDNT YOU DENSE FUCK

Hilariously poor logic from someone in the top 10%. Just because nobody deserves to be at the top does not mean that somebody does. Also, you are way too proud of yourself. Like, great story and all, but that doesn't mean that people should go to Hastings. If you actually have the self discipline to drop out after a semester (maybe you do, we'll never know) then that's one thing. Few do, though.

I was trolling with that point (hence why it's set off from the rest of the post); once Mal used the word "retarded" I knew he was ready to blow.

[OneMoreLawHopeful]

/Meanwhile in TLS bizarro world or what we can also call the majority of Hastings outcomes

Non-law employer: So, what did you do for the last year and a half? I see there is a big gap in your resume.

Lawhopeful: I took a risk and then cut ties immediately but don't worry it was the right call.

Non-law employer: I understand completely. You're a straight shooter and I like that about you. You're hired.

So you DO need to fantasize about me not getting biglaw in order to feel better?

[patogordo]

"haha i said dumb things and made someone call me dumb. TROLLED 2 DA MAX"

[pancakes3]

I think whoever gets in the top 10% should keep their head down and thank whatever flying spaghetti monster they subscribe to because there's no telling what flukey, lucky-as-fuck reason got them into the 10% and kept the poor bastard sitting at 11%.

Anyone who thinks otherwise is just a blissfully ignorant snowflake who thinks he/she willed his/her way to the top because goddamnit, he/she deserves it. A lucky, and potentially high earning snowflake but a snowflake just the same.

Hard, tiresome grinding and natural aptitude can boost someone into a range of percentiles but there's no way anyone can clearly say they deserve to be top 10%.

guys, debt is meaningless, you can always just kill yourself and they won't get a dime

risk: analyzed

180.

[fourtyacslaw]

So you DO need to fantasize about me not getting biglaw in order to feel better?

Do you have to fantasize about some stranger on a message board getting angry about your perceived success in order to make you feel better and justify your decision/flawed logic?

[OneMoreLawHopeful]

So you DO need to fantasize about me not getting biglaw in order to feel better?

Do you have to fantasize about some stranger on a message board getting angry about your perceived success in order to make you feel better and justify your decision/logic?

FTTY

No, but when it's clear that intractable philosophical differences will keep us from ever agreeing, then trolling makes me laugh.

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

That doesn't mean your decision to attend that school was the correct one.

I disagree.

I started work in biglaw this month, at a firm that's a great fit for me, and in an area of law that I feel passionately about.

But, if I had followed TLS "wisdom" then I wouldn't be here, because I never would have gone to any of the schools I was accepted at. Instead, according to TLS, I should have either (1) gone to get a second BA in computer science (despite having no interest in that field) or (2) tried to use my econ degree to work in finance (despite having no interest in that field either).

In other words, it's worth pointing out that for some subset of law students, TLS "wisdom" is not going to get you where you want to be in life.

TLS approaches education as though passion for a career is meaningless, and the only consideration should be the likely pay out on degree completion. But while it's not wrong to look at employment stats, there's a case to be made that TLS has taken it WAY too far (especially with all the "Just do compsci, bro" posts that have no regard for what the person's underlying interests are).

To that end, there's merit in a thread like this one; reminding everyone that sometimes large risks pay off, and for many of us a small chance at the career of our choice beats certainty in a field we have no desire to enter.

A reminder that back on the second page, you started all of this by disagreeing with a really, really uncontroversial statement, taking personal offense to well-intentioned cost/benefits analyses showing poor outcomes for the majority of your students at your school, and just generally failing to appreciate the significance of hindsight bias.

[fourtyacslaw]

So you DO need to fantasize about me not getting biglaw in order to feel better?

Do you have to fantasize about some stranger on a message board getting angry about your perceived success in order to make you feel better and justify your decision/logic?

FTTY

No, but when it's clear that intractable philosophical differences will keep us from ever agreeing, then trolling makes me laugh.

Given your view on the topic and the fact that we are on TLS you probably knew pretty well before a single keystroke what type of reaction you were going to get.

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

intractable philosophical differences

Please elaborate. Be specific. Is it that Mal, Zuck, Campos, myself, and 98% of people who have seriously considered this issue think going into six figures of debt for a school that gives you a coin flip's chance at being a lawyer is a bad idea, and you disagree?

[nickelanddime]

That doesn't mean your decision to attend that school was the correct one.

I disagree.

I started work in biglaw this month, at a firm that's a great fit for me, and in an area of law that I feel passionately about.

But, if I had followed TLS "wisdom" then I wouldn't be here, because I never would have gone to any of the schools I was accepted at. Instead, according to TLS, I should have either (1) gone to get a second BA in computer science (despite having no interest in that field) or (2) tried to use my econ degree to work in finance (despite having no interest in that field either).

In other words, it's worth pointing out that for some subset of law students, TLS "wisdom" is not going to get you where you want to be in life.

TLS approaches education as though passion for a career is meaningless, and the only consideration should be the likely pay out on degree completion. But while it's not wrong to look at employment stats, there's a case to be made that TLS has taken it WAY too far (especially with all the "Just do compsci, bro" posts that have no regard for what the person's underlying interests are).

To that end, there's merit in a thread like this one; reminding everyone that sometimes large risks pay off, and for many of us a small chance at the career of our choice beats certainty in a field we have no desire to enter.

A reminder that back on the second page, you started all of this by disagreeing with a really, really uncontroversial statement, taking personal offense to well-intentioned cost/benefits analyses showing poor outcomes for the majority of your students at your school, and just generally failing to appreciate the significance of hindsight bias.

I'd also be curious to see if 1MLH is still 'passionate' about his/her career after a year of biglaw.

[OneMoreLawHopeful]

intractable philosophical differences

Please elaborate. Be specific. Is it that Mal, Zuck, Campos, myself, and 98% of people who have seriously considered this issue think going into six figures of debt for a school that gives you a coin flip's chance at being a lawyer is a bad idea, and you disagree?

I don't disagree with that, and if I didn't get the grades I was prepared to drop out.

I'm actually in total agreement with your position of several pages back that T1/T2 schools might make sense for some subset of students who meet relatively narrow criteria (want to work in the region, can't benefit from retaking, prepared to dropout, getting a scholarship, etc.).

Where we part ways is over what degree luck really plays in the whole scheme.

To be fair, you never stated that all law school grading is arbitrary, but looking over posts from others, I'm pretty sure they think your grade in any 1 class is based on a dice roll.

Like you, and others, I agree that there's really no way to know, in advance, how you will do on law school exams. But to that end, I think that there should be a mechanism by which people who feel passionate about a career in law can test themselves to see if they would succeed in a law school environment. I think that this is something the "Just do compsci, bro" crowd cannot appreciate because that reflects being passionate about a steady paycheck and not being passionate about an actual field of work.

I don't know about Mal, but looking over BigZuck's posts, it's clear he's in the "just do another career" crowd. To me, this is an intractable difference. As someone who was once very far from his dreams, I'm unwilling to tell others they need to give up on theirs. I think it's important to share information and risks, but who am I to tell someone not to take a risk that paid off for me?

A few pages back, you compared taking out loans to go to a school like Hastings to starting a new business because 90% of new businesses fail. Nonetheless, people start new businesses every day (and yes, lose their life savings in the endeavor), but if it's their dream to go into business for themselves, who are we to stop them?

I would never (and have never) advised someone to go to a school like Hastings over a school in the t14. But if someone doesn't have that option, knows the risks, and wants to take the chance, I refuse to join BigZuck in telling that person they should be ashamed of themselves.

[Anonymous User]

OP here...probably poor choice in title but I sincerely meant this as a thank you. Tls was great to me.

[BigZuck]

intractable philosophical differences

Please elaborate. Be specific. Is it that Mal, Zuck, Campos, myself, and 98% of people who have seriously considered this issue think going into six figures of debt for a school that gives you a coin flip's chance at being a lawyer is a bad idea, and you disagree?

I don't disagree with that, and if I didn't get the grades I was prepared to drop out.

I'm actually in total agreement with your position of several pages back that T1/T2 schools might make sense for some subset of students who meet relatively narrow criteria (want to work in the region, can't benefit from retaking, prepared to dropout, getting a scholarship, etc.).

Where we part ways is over what degree luck really plays in the whole scheme.

To be fair, you never stated that all law school grading is arbitrary, but looking over posts from others, I'm pretty sure they think your grade in any 1 class is based on a dice roll.

Like you, and others, I agree that there's really no way to know, in advance, how you will do on law school exams. But to that end, I think that there should be a mechanism by which people who feel passionate about a career in law can test themselves to see if they would succeed in a law school environment. I think that this is something the "Just do compsci, bro" crowd cannot appreciate because that reflects being passionate about a steady paycheck and not being passionate about an actual field of work.

I don't know about Mal, but looking over BigZuck's posts, it's clear he's in the "just do another career" crowd. To me, this is an intractable difference. As someone who was once very far from his dreams, I'm unwilling to tell others they need to give up on theirs. I think it's important to share information and risks, but who am I to tell someone not to take a risk that paid off for me?

A few pages back, you compared taking out loans to go to a school like Hastings to starting a new business because 90% of new businesses fail. Nonetheless, people start new businesses every day (and yes, lose their life savings in the endeavor), but if it's their dream to go into business for themselves, who are we to stop them?

I would never (and have never) advised someone to go to a school like Hastings over a school in the t14. But if someone doesn't have that option, knows the risks, and wants to take the chance, I refuse to join BigZuck in telling that person they should be ashamed of themselves.

The fact that you're calling working in big law "a dream" and your "passion" leads me to believe you were just trolling this whole time. You have to be. Well played.

I do think suggesting someone spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on a school like Hastings is shameful. Just really, really irresponsible and almost sociopathic. We should be helping people, not encouraging them to ruin their lives. And the chance of that happening is much greater than them realizing their BIG PASSION.

[OneMoreLawHopeful]

I majored in economics, and Judge Posner was required reading for Industrial Organization. His work made me want to be a lawyer, with a goal of getting into antitrust. The options for that (aside from plaintiffs' side shitlaw) are biglaw or DoJ - and we all know that getting the DoJ position is as hard if not harder than biglaw (especially in 2010 when I was applying to law school and there was a hiring freeze).

That's why I was passionate about biglaw, and I still am. People who read some of my posts in the lounge know that I'm a libertarian that wants to fight government regulation, and now I get paid a lot of money to do just that every day. I'm living my own personal dream, and that's something I don't want to deny to others.

You think there's only one way to help 0Ls; I disagree.

[WokeUpInACar]

I majored in economics, and Judge Posner was required reading for Industrial Organization. His work made me want to be a lawyer, with a goal of getting into antitrust. The options for that (aside from plaintiffs' side shitlaw) are biglaw or DoJ - and we all know that getting the DoJ position is as hard if not harder than biglaw (especially in 2010 when I was applying to law school and there was a hiring freeze).

That's why I was passionate about biglaw, and I still am. People who read some of my posts in the lounge know that I'm a libertarian that wants to fight government regulation, and now I get paid a lot of money to do just that every day. I'm living my own personal dream, and that's something I don't want to deny to others.

You think there's only one way to help 0Ls; I disagree.

But if someone was really as resolute as you, we wouldn't be changing their minds. It's the people on the fence who will be affected by TLS wisdom, and those people should absolutely follow it.

[OneMoreLawHopeful]

I majored in economics, and Judge Posner was required reading for Industrial Organization. His work made me want to be a lawyer, with a goal of getting into antitrust. The options for that (aside from plaintiffs' side shitlaw) are biglaw or DoJ - and we all know that getting the DoJ position is as hard if not harder than biglaw (especially in 2010 when I was applying to law school and there was a hiring freeze).

That's why I was passionate about biglaw, and I still am. People who read some of my posts in the lounge know that I'm a libertarian that wants to fight government regulation, and now I get paid a lot of money to do just that every day. I'm living my own personal dream, and that's something I don't want to deny to others.

You think there's only one way to help 0Ls; I disagree.

But if someone was really as resolute as you, we wouldn't be changing their minds. It's the people on the fence who will be affected by TLS wisdom, and those people should absolutely follow it.

There is some merit to this. What's really ironic is that I've never suggested that people "on the fence" should go to a T1/T2 school at all. My whole point in jumping into this thread is that "TLS Wisdom" does not accurately reflect everyone and there's some merit in pointing that out.

Also, I think BigZuck' s repeated insistence that I should feel some sort of personal shame for chasing my goals is not only a toxic attitude, but a reflection of something all too common on TLS, and worth being called out.

[A. Nony Mouse]

OP here...probably poor choice in title but I sincerely meant this as a thank you. Tls was great to me.

OP, whatever this thread has spawned, congratulations on your job, sincerely, and I hope things continue to work out for you.

[BigZuck]

I majored in economics, and Judge Posner was required reading for Industrial Organization. His work made me want to be a lawyer, with a goal of getting into antitrust. The options for that (aside from plaintiffs' side shitlaw) are biglaw or DoJ - and we all know that getting the DoJ position is as hard if not harder than biglaw (especially in 2010 when I was applying to law school and there was a hiring freeze).

That's why I was passionate about biglaw, and I still am. People who read some of my posts in the lounge know that I'm a libertarian that wants to fight government regulation, and now I get paid a lot of money to do just that every day. I'm living my own personal dream, and that's something I don't want to deny to others.

You think there's only one way to help 0Ls; I disagree.

But if someone was really as resolute as you, we wouldn't be changing their minds. It's the people on the fence who will be affected by TLS wisdom, and those people should absolutely follow it.

There is some merit to this. What's really ironic is that I've never suggested that people "on the fence" should go to a T1/T2 school at all. My whole point in jumping into this thread is that "TLS Wisdom" does not accurately reflect everyone and there's some merit in pointing that out.

Also, I think BigZuck' s repeated insistence that I should feel some sort of personal shame for chasing my goals is not only a toxic attitude, but a reflection of something all too common on TLS, and worth being called out.

Come at me bro.

The libertarian Posnerian big law dream is so bizarre to me and honestly makes me wonder if you and I are operating on the same plane so you're probably right, no point in pursuing this any further. You're also moving the goalposts and (willfully?) misinterpreting things that are being said ITT so I don't really see the point. You don't even get that I said you should be ashamed of yourself for encouraging kids to commit potential financial suicide. I said nothing about you feeling shame for pursuing your dreams. But I think you should feel shame for encouraging other people to try and emulate you. The vast majority will fail. And that's terrible.

I'm 100% with Mal on this one. There has got to be some sort of cognitive impairment here.

[WhiskeynCoke]

The question of whether law school is right for you is what your alternative options are. I don't get how TLS misses this repeatedly. Most people who go T-2 literally have no other career options. Access to 200k and a chance at a way better life than their alternative is not a bad outcome. Lots of people at T2s are the people who should be the first ones to apply to law school - meaning the people who have high gpas and other options should really examine whether law school is right for them compared to the alternative. If the government is going to give you access to cash to make an investment or gamble on yourself when you are out of options, even if that gamble has a 10% chance of hitting, you aren't doing the math right if you think law school isn't worth going to. A 10% chance at a sitdown desk job making over $100k a year beats the piss out of working at starbucks for $11/hr.

I agree with most that law school is sorta a gamble. But it's still a gamble on yourself that you have some control over. So it's more like poker than roulette. Which guess what, if you graduate from college and have no career options taking out a $200k loan to go play poker in Vegas isnt the dumbest thing in the world. Unfortunately, there aren't many places you can get money to gamble on yourself other than higher education.

The system creates a tension where the best interest of the individual is almost always go to the T2 but the best interest of society is for less people to go into law in general. But still, the advice of all the T-14 people here is very selfish and it's obvious bullshit (esp in situations where people have told long-term unemployed people not working to not go to law school - hell I'd advise that person to go to law school for the living money if nothing else). Their right to the legal education gamble doesn't take priority over someone at Hastings or St. Johns. In fact, they should be the first ones defending themselves because most likely they had the most alternative career paths.

Wow this is so fail it's not even funny. You claim that a 10% chance at big law is better than working for $11/hr at Starbucks....

What you don't seem to realize is that means you have a 90% chance of winding up back at Starbucks, making $11/hr, EXCEPT WITH 200K IN NON-DISCHARGEABLE DEBT. Just, wow.

Going to Hastings is an objectively bad decision for everyone. 1MLH, you succeeded DESPITE your poor decision to attend Hastings, not because of it. You are doing 0Ls a serious disservice by suggesting otherwise.

[Johann]

Except the alternative is not 10% biglaw 90% fail. I came out of T3. I see what the alternatives are. Nobody I know not one person out of 100ish are struggling. It's not rainbows for all of them either but several are in govt making $100 monthly payments before that 10 year forgiveness. Others are working for $50k a year again with $100 monthly payments and 30 days of vacation a year. Others are working hard making 6 figures. Others have started their own firms that are becoming relatively stable in the low six figs. Others have already started a practice and sold it and lateraled into biglaw. The options are endless. This is from a T3. I am in almost $300k of debt with undergrad loans. Since 2009 I have paid $800 on my loans all tax deductible. 1/10 of the way into complete loan forgiveness. Not being a flame at all. You guys are talking from positions you know nothing about because you didn't go this route. Just because it is nondischargeable in theory doesn't mean you have to pay it all. You don't even have to default on your loans because you can just call the loan providers and ask for a month or 3 off. But even if that isn't an option, defaulting on debt is not that bad. So you aren't buying a house. Cool you weren't doing on that on starbucks money anyways.

[twenty 8]

At my hometown callback I explained that I had been accepted at two T14 schools but I selected my hometown T2 school because they offered a fully paid scholarship. The consensus of the partners was that my strategy was prudent. They offered me an SA, and then hired me. I am not sure if that tactic would have worked had I not been accepted by the T14s. I say that because the firm still gives a lot of weight to T14 applicants (because those schools only accept high achievers). Over the past month I screened a number of worthy candidates but they’re still on a waitlist behind the T14 applicants. OL advice, if you’re going to shoot for a free ride, do it after a T14 accepts you first.

[Mal Reynolds]

Except the alternative is not 10% biglaw 90% fail. I came out of T3. I see what the alternatives are. Nobody I know not one person out of 100ish are struggling. It's not rainbows for all of them either but several are in govt making $100 monthly payments before that 10 year forgiveness. Others are working for $50k a year again with $100 monthly payments and 30 days of vacation a year. Others are working hard making 6 figures. Others have started their own firms that are becoming relatively stable in the low six figs. Others have already started a practice and sold it and lateraled into biglaw. The options are endless. This is from a T3. I am in almost $300k of debt with undergrad loans. Since 2009 I have paid $800 on my loans all tax deductible. 1/10 of the way into complete loan forgiveness. Not being a flame at all. You guys are talking from positions you know nothing about because you didn't go this route. Just because it is nondischargeable in theory doesn't mean you have to pay it all. You don't even have to default on your loans because you can just call the loan providers and ask for a month or 3 off. But even if that isn't an option, defaulting on debt is not that bad. So you aren't buying a house. Cool you weren't doing on that on starbucks money anyways.

This just can't be serial.

[CardozoLaw09]

OP, what school did you attend?

[A. Nony Mouse]

Except the alternative is not 10% biglaw 90% fail. I came out of T3. I see what the alternatives are. Nobody I know not one person out of 100ish are struggling. It's not rainbows for all of them either but several are in govt making $100 monthly payments before that 10 year forgiveness. Others are working for $50k a year again with $100 monthly payments and 30 days of vacation a year. Others are working hard making 6 figures. Others have started their own firms that are becoming relatively stable in the low six figs. Others have already started a practice and sold it and lateraled into biglaw. The options are endless. This is from a T3. I am in almost $300k of debt with undergrad loans. Since 2009 I have paid $800 on my loans all tax deductible. 1/10 of the way into complete loan forgiveness. Not being a flame at all. You guys are talking from positions you know nothing about because you didn't go this route. Just because it is nondischargeable in theory doesn't mean you have to pay it all. You don't even have to default on your loans because you can just call the loan providers and ask for a month or 3 off. But even if that isn't an option, defaulting on debt is not that bad. So you aren't buying a house. Cool you weren't doing on that on starbucks money anyways.

What the hell salary is someone making that they have $100 loan payments? Even on IBR, that is a really really low salary (or less debt, which removes them from the calculus we're talking about).

[sparty99]

This thread is dumb. Do not attend a T2. Ever. It is just not worth it in this legal economy. Even the T50 schools are garbage.