What firms would you take over Cravath? Forum

[Morgan12Oak]

The Vault rankings are based 100% on what is a subjective assessment. The fact that those rankings are averaged and sorted by a third party doesn't make them objective. But that's not really the point.

How many people have come on this site and said they were glad they went with their gut or the firm that was the best fit? A lot. How many do you think have come on here and said they wish they'd picked a higher ranked firm? I haven't seen a single one.

Well that sounds objective!

[ymmv]

The Vault rankings are based 100% on what is a subjective assessment. The fact that those rankings are averaged and sorted by a third party doesn't make them objective. But that's not really the point.

How many people have come on this site and said they were glad they went with their gut or the firm that was the best fit? A lot. How many do you think have come on here and said they wish they'd picked a higher ranked firm? I haven't seen a single one.

Well that sounds objective!

Your trolling is fucking 140 tops, dude.

[Anonymous User]

Dear Whoever Keeps Bizarrely Trolling For Schulte In Every Thread,

I'm not sure if you're running an underappreciated schtick, or if you just learned that Schulte is traditionally well-regarded in "hedge fund work," but this thing you do where you mention it twice a day is weirding me out. At Schulte, and Cravath, and any other Biglaw place, the benefits and drawbacks are 98% the same. No one gives a shit about why you chose/will choose Schulte, or any other firm, especially not on an online forum best known for being an Asperger's support group.

Sincerely,
Someone Who Will Be Working At Schulte This Summer Unless Something Unexpectedly Changes

[Morgan12Oak]

Dear Whoever Keeps Bizarrely Trolling For Schulte In Every Thread,

I'm not sure if you're running an underappreciated schtick, or if you just learned that Schulte is traditionally well-regarded in "hedge fund work," but this thing you do where you mention it twice a day is weirding me out. At Schulte, and Cravath, and any other Biglaw place, the benefits and drawbacks are 98% the same. No one gives a shit about why you chose/will choose Schulte, or any other firm, especially not on an online forum best known for being an Asperger's support group.

Sincerely,
Someone Who Will Be Working At Schulte This Summer Unless Something Unexpectedly Changes

This is oddly somehow more of a subtle SRZ trolling than the other guy who started it here.

[thesealocust]

Can we talk about how to pronounce Schulte?

I've heard "shoolt-ee" before, I think? But honestly I'm not sure, and I would hate to mispronounce a firm that is the red-colored starburst of 3rd avenue.

[Anonymous User]

Dear Whoever Keeps Bizarrely Trolling For Schulte In Every Thread,

I'm not sure if you're running an underappreciated schtick, or if you just learned that Schulte is traditionally well-regarded in "hedge fund work," but this thing you do where you mention it twice a day is weirding me out. At Schulte, and Cravath, and any other Biglaw place, the benefits and drawbacks are 98% the same. No one gives a shit about why you chose/will choose Schulte, or any other firm, especially not on an online forum best known for being an Asperger's support group.

Sincerely,
Someone Who Will Be Working At Schulte This Summer Unless Something Unexpectedly Changes

This is oddly somehow more of a subtle SRZ trolling than the other guy who started it here.

My bad. My point was that the trolling is getting old, and I'm a little weirded out at the exhortations to give a shit about Schulte, just like I don't really feel obligated to spend a second thinking about Cravath.

[Morgan12Oak]

Can we talk about how to pronounce Schulte?

I've heard "shoolt-ee" before, I think? But honestly I'm not sure, and I would hate to mispronounce a firm that is the red-colored starburst of 3rd avenue.

I've always heard "shul-tee", "roth" and "zay-bell"

[Anonymous User]

Dear Whoever Keeps Bizarrely Trolling For Schulte In Every Thread,

I'm not sure if you're running an underappreciated schtick, or if you just learned that Schulte is traditionally well-regarded in "hedge fund work," but this thing you do where you mention it twice a day is weirding me out. At Schulte, and Cravath, and any other Biglaw place, the benefits and drawbacks are 98% the same. No one gives a shit about why you chose/will choose Schulte, or any other firm, especially not on an online forum best known for being an Asperger's support group.

Sincerely,
Someone Who Will Be Working At Schulte This Summer Unless Something Unexpectedly Changes

This is the person from the third page who made the Schulte post. I'm actually completely unrelated to the guy who was posting about Schulte earlier... I don't go on TLS much, didn't meant to start a massive conversation, and also didn't even know that there was a "SRZ troll" in the first place.

That said, all I meant to convey with my post was that, for me personally, happiness is a greater factor in my decision-making process than prestige. That doesn't mean that prestige isn't an objectively valuable metric; for a lot of people, it is, and it is for good reasons. But for me and for my personal goals at this point, I just want to be happy (or as happy as one can be in this high-stress profession) and work with people I like.

To the OP: During OCI, I remember being annoyed at people who were obsessing over whether they would be working at a V5 or V10, etc. Either way, they (and you) are going to be making 160K from the start of their law careers, and for me personally, the fact that people were worrying about that when there were (for example) numerous homeless people just outside the building was obnoxious. Perspective is a thing that a lot of law students (including myself) could use.

That said, good luck to all of you in this process.

[Anonymous User]

Associate at Cravath here (and the only one in this thread from what I can tell), and LOL at about 60% of everything mentioned in this thread, starting with the 13 first-years who allegedly left.

Could you please elaborate? Some of us are in the process of making this decision and having a data point from inside the firm is very valuable (I was prepared for another level of horror when I met some associates / partners but unless they laid it on thick it didn't seem half as bad as TLS makes it out to be).

I'm the CSM associate who posted this. I have no idea WTF happened in this thread, but on the outside chance that anyone is still reading this for substance I'll elaborate a bit.

I know of five first-years who left before their planned date. Three just kinda peaced out within four months because they didn't need the job (i.e. no debt and whatnot) and didn't think it worth the hours. One moved back home because that person's SO got a new job there. And one allegedly failed the bar for the second time in February. Everyone else I can think of who left (and I have no idea if that adds up to 13) left for clerkships they had already accepted before they started at the firm.

The average hours here are about the same as those at our peers in NYC. There's a reason our billable rates, RPL, PPP, etc., are all within the same range (except for Wachtell, which apparently prints money in the basement, and Quinn, which is so cheap some of our partners refuse to take depositions at their offices). The person who said, above, that hours can be worse in part because of the rotation system is on point. I bill more than most my friends at other firms, but I also know first-years here who bill much less than associates at other firms. So the range is just bigger, because no one cares about your hours. It all just depends on what team you're on. I know someone who billed less than 800 hrs in the first six months of 2014, but I also know someone (who will make partner in a year or so) who billed over 2000. But something people forget: more hours = more responsibility. If everyone on your team is kinda lounging no one is going to let a first-year take a deposition; that only happens when everyone is slammed.

As for partners being assholes, my (decidedly one-sided) impression is that most people I work with are actually more pleasant that the people I hear about from other firms. But there are also ones with bad reputations, as there are at every large workplace in the country.

As for exit options, I have no idea how it compares, but my instinct tells me that compared to our peers--Wachtell, S&C, DPW, etc.--the exit options are similar.

As for everyone saying our lit dept is shit compared to all these other firms, you're talking out of your ass. Unlike most big corporate-dependent firm, the vast majority of our lit work is generated by the lit department, not as spill-off from corporate. Moreover, we are not heavily dependent on white collar work and other enforcement stuff, which, while desirable to some, is not something I have an interest in. I want to try cases, and unlike every single one of my friends (who work at DPW, Cleary, S&C, Skadden, PW, etc.) I'm getting to do just that. Evan Chesler, like Boies at BSF, generates a LOT of trial work that flows down to more junior partners and their teams. We do about 3-4 large civil trials a year, and I think only a few places--BSF and Quinn come to mind, maybe Kirkland?--do that when correcting for size.

Look, there's no doubt we work a lot here. So do my friends at the firms down the street. If you don't want to work a lot, don't work at a big firm in NYC (or maybe anywhere). If you're OK with working hard, pick a firm that does a lot of the type of work you do and that has people there you think you might like to work with (as opposed to be friends with).

[Anonymous User]

Can we talk about how to pronounce Schulte?

I've heard "shoolt-ee" before, I think? But honestly I'm not sure, and I would hate to mispronounce a firm that is the red-colored starburst of 3rd avenue.

TSL,

as someone who likely will be working at SRZ this summer, is it really that bad of an idea. I liked them a lot in my callback, but I admittedly don't know much about NYC Biglaw.

Please help

[Anonymous User]

You'll have a job bud. Thats so much more than many of your peers can say.

[Anonymous User]

.

[Old Gregg]

how is it that the mods are letting a single anon dude troll for schulte nonstop? shouldnt the dude be outed by now?

[Anonymous User]

Associate at Cravath here (and the only one in this thread from what I can tell), and LOL at about 60% of everything mentioned in this thread, starting with the 13 first-years who allegedly left.

Could you please elaborate? Some of us are in the process of making this decision and having a data point from inside the firm is very valuable (I was prepared for another level of horror when I met some associates / partners but unless they laid it on thick it didn't seem half as bad as TLS makes it out to be).

I'm the CSM associate who posted this. I have no idea WTF happened in this thread, but on the outside chance that anyone is still reading this for substance I'll elaborate a bit.

I know of five first-years who left before their planned date. Three just kinda peaced out within four months because they didn't need the job (i.e. no debt and whatnot) and didn't think it worth the hours. One moved back home because that person's SO got a new job there. And one allegedly failed the bar for the second time in February. Everyone else I can think of who left (and I have no idea if that adds up to 13) left for clerkships they had already accepted before they started at the firm.

The average hours here are about the same as those at our peers in NYC. There's a reason our billable rates, RPL, PPP, etc., are all within the same range (except for Wachtell, which apparently prints money in the basement, and Quinn, which is so cheap some of our partners refuse to take depositions at their offices). The person who said, above, that hours can be worse in part because of the rotation system is on point. I bill more than most my friends at other firms, but I also know first-years here who bill much less than associates at other firms. So the range is just bigger, because no one cares about your hours. It all just depends on what team you're on. I know someone who billed less than 800 hrs in the first six months of 2014, but I also know someone (who will make partner in a year or so) who billed over 2000. But something people forget: more hours = more responsibility. If everyone on your team is kinda lounging no one is going to let a first-year take a deposition; that only happens when everyone is slammed.

As for partners being assholes, my (decidedly one-sided) impression is that most people I work with are actually more pleasant that the people I hear about from other firms. But there are also ones with bad reputations, as there are at every large workplace in the country.

As for exit options, I have no idea how it compares, but my instinct tells me that compared to our peers--Wachtell, S&C, DPW, etc.--the exit options are similar.

As for everyone saying our lit dept is shit compared to all these other firms, you're talking out of your ass. Unlike most big corporate-dependent firm, the vast majority of our lit work is generated by the lit department, not as spill-off from corporate. Moreover, we are not heavily dependent on white collar work and other enforcement stuff, which, while desirable to some, is not something I have an interest in. I want to try cases, and unlike every single one of my friends (who work at DPW, Cleary, S&C, Skadden, PW, etc.) I'm getting to do just that. Evan Chesler, like Boies at BSF, generates a LOT of trial work that flows down to more junior partners and their teams. We do about 3-4 large civil trials a year, and I think only a few places--BSF and Quinn come to mind, maybe Kirkland?--do that when correcting for size.

Look, there's no doubt we work a lot here. So do my friends at the firms down the street. If you don't want to work a lot, don't work at a big firm in NYC (or maybe anywhere). If you're OK with working hard, pick a firm that does a lot of the type of work you do and that has people there you think you might like to work with (as opposed to be friends with).

Thank you.

[Anonymous User]

didn't really read anyone saying that the lit dept is shit compared to corp...but earlier I posted that there are dozens of firms that were better for lit than cravath, listed a few, and then another poster joined in and added several more

cravath associate, would you claim that cravath is a better option than those firms for lit? (e.g. W&C, MTO, etc.)

[juzam_djinn]

Is this even true though? Very few people people are going to go on to become a partner at the big law firm that they start at. Sure, maybe you can work in the best big law hedge fund practice group for 3-4 years. But to practice hedge funds work/ be hired be a hedge fund/ become a partner in a hedge fund practice, I would find it hard to believe that someone should pick Schulte over something like Wachtell. I honestly don't know though, are hedge finds hiring these SRZ bros over Wachtell candidates?

LMAO Wachtell for hedge funds. TY for this flame. FWIW, SRZ is the #1 feeder to Goldman Sachs.

who gives a fuck about goldman sachs

what is it with all these attorneys w/ banker envy

Hear, hear...it's all this random finance envy that enhances the perception of lawyers as bankers' bitches. We went to law school to become lawyers, not dream about becoming financiers

[Anonymous User]

Take this elsewhere please. This thread is supposed to be about cravath.

[Anonymous User]

I would take basically any other major NY firm with decent name recognition over them. I don't want to dread going to work each morning, and that is more likely to happen there than other places. Also the rotation system is too weird

[thesealocust]

Can we talk about how to pronounce Schulte?

I've heard "shoolt-ee" before, I think? But honestly I'm not sure, and I would hate to mispronounce a firm that is the red-colored starburst of 3rd avenue.

TSL,

as someone who likely will be working at SRZ this summer, is it really that bad of an idea. I liked them a lot in my callback, but I admittedly don't know much about NYC Biglaw.

Please help

What? SRZ is fine. I was making fun of the people making weird comparisons involving the firm, not making fun of the firm.

[Anonymous User]

didn't really read anyone saying that the lit dept is shit compared to corp...but earlier I posted that there are dozens of firms that were better for lit than cravath, listed a few, and then another poster joined in and added several more

cravath associate, would you claim that cravath is a better option than those firms for lit? (e.g. W&C, MTO, etc.)

I think it's hard to say "better" because it depends a little bit what type of litigation you want to do and what else you value. I think there are arguments why you might want to take some firms over CSM. If you look in NYC (and I only did when I was applying) I don't see why you'd take S&C, Skadden or Jones Day (all mentioned above) over CSM.

PW is a good firm, but so much of their work is Citi, and knowing what I know now I try to stay away from financial institution lit clients. PW is also changing pretty rapidly and becoming more dependent on their transactional practice (primarily hedge fun and PE work), so it's less of a lit shop than it used to be. They also rarely go to trial.

I would probably have taken Boies and Quinn over CSM when I was interviewing as a 2L (although I didn't have those options) but I'd never lateral there at this point after litigating with/against them. That's not a knock on their work--they're very good--but many of the things I most appreciate at work are things I'd give up by going to those places. Same thing for GDC--I have no interest in a free-market system

As for non-NYC lit shops mentioned, I don't know enough about them, to be honest. If you want to work in LA and have an offer from MTO, then maybe it makes sense to work at MTO. But if you want to work in LA, why interview at CSM in the first place?

[Anonymous User]

Can we talk about how to pronounce Schulte?

I've heard "shoolt-ee" before, I think? But honestly I'm not sure, and I would hate to mispronounce a firm that is the red-colored starburst of 3rd avenue.

TSL,

as someone who likely will be working at SRZ this summer, is it really that bad of an idea. I liked them a lot in my callback, but I admittedly don't know much about NYC Biglaw.

Please help

Is this serious? Schulte is an awesome place. You will be making 160K working with great people who do great work.

[mephistopheles]

Can we talk about how to pronounce Schulte?

I've heard "shoolt-ee" before, I think? But honestly I'm not sure, and I would hate to mispronounce a firm that is the red-colored starburst of 3rd avenue.

TSL,

as someone who likely will be working at SRZ this summer, is it really that bad of an idea. I liked them a lot in my callback, but I admittedly don't know much about NYC Biglaw.

Please help

Is this serious? Schulte is an awesome place. You will be making 160K working with great people who do great work.

...that vault ranking doe...

[Hutz_and_Goodman]

I would take basically any other major NY firm with decent name recognition over them. I don't want to dread going to work each morning, and that is more likely to happen there than other places. Also the rotation system is too weird

[09042014]

I've heard srz is a sweatshop with people who almost struck out due to personality issues.

[Anonymous User]

I asked this in another thread but it is also appropriate here: How representative are the people we meet during callbacks of the entire firm? If I were deciding whether or not to take a firm over Cravath (for example), that question would be very important.