Lawyers tell you how to get no offered. Forum

[rpupkin]

Only half joking, but should we plan on never pooping at work?

Just make sure that the senior associate signs off on your shit before dropping it on the partner's desk.

[MinEMorris]

One more thing I'd add (and thanks, Dredd, for the kind comment), is that if you make a mistake, own up to it. I'm envisioning two different scenarios here. One is where someone else catches your mistake and brings it to your attention. Don't fight it, just accept it. So don't say "Oh, well, you said xyz so I thought . . ." (even if it's true), just say something like "Thanks for bringing that to my attention. I'm sorry for the error, and I'll be sure to avoid making the same mistake in the future. Please let me know if you notice anything else."

And similarly, while I think this is more debatable, if you make a mistake that you catch before anyone else, I think you should fess up to it. I made a pretty notable mistake on a document when I summered. My impression was that there was a very low chance that the client or anyone else would notice it, and even if they did, I had a perfectly good, innocence-maintaining explanation for how it happened. And most difficult of all, the document was already in the process of being delivered to the client. I still decided to own up to it and notify the relevant persons. The document was recalled and fixed, and it caused a small stir. I obviously thought I had sealed my fate, but the attorneys made it seem like the plus of my candor outweighed the negative of the error. I imagine these situations could turn out differently for different people, but I still think it's solid advice to be transparent and own up to your errors. I've also heard stories from other people about summers getting canned for trying to sweep mistakes or indiscretions under the carpet.

[ChardPennington]

Re poop situation I think that's definitely a question you have to take to HR.

[Elston Gunn]

Are cold offers a common thing in NYC vault firms? The reason that I ask is that for a firm with 100% offer rate even through the recession, are there SAs every year getting a cold offer or are these places where it is genuinely very very difficult to not get an offer (short of asking a named partner to start a spin off firm with you as a partner, embezzling from the firm, calling opposing counsel to settle, etc.).

One of the reasons that I ask is that in another thread a poster (IMFG?) suggested asking associates to walk you through a good day, average day, bad day in their practice area. This seems to me like great advice for learning what it is actually like to practice in a particular group, but I would be sort of hesitant to open up this line of conversation (the "walk me through a bad day" part) given that some people are reporting a no offer situation arising over relatively minor shit. For instance, a person who is non-white sharing her/his experience of being racially profiled does not really strike me as inappropriate conversation.

"Chilly" offers are not uncommon among the firms with 100% offer rates. Cold offers happen as well - maybe a couplle a year per firm - but more common is a really negative end of summer review followed by an offer in a practice group they know you're not interested in. That's what I think of as a "chilly" offer because you can accept it and they'll let you come to work and do doc review or whatever for a couple years before they ask you to leave, but you're effectively off the track from day 1.

2 cold offer and more common chilly offers per year, per firm? So, even with a 100% offer rate, you're talking about a firm trying to tell 5-10% of it's class not to come back?

[rayiner]

Only half joking, but should we plan on never pooping at work?

My friend had a tyrannical senior associate that would hold her poops so she could bill more.

[homestyle28]

Happened a few summers before mine:

Go to firm social function-> drink too much -> go back to office after function -> vomit in hallway on the carpet -> pass out in your office -> blame vomit that's obviously yours on a paralegal -> no offer

From what I was told, at any point up to bolded no offer could have been avoided

[exitoptions]

Only half joking, but should we plan on never pooping at work?

My friend had a tyrannical senior associate that would hold her poops so she could bill more.

This makes no sense. Just bring a file with you.

[rayiner]

Only half joking, but should we plan on never pooping at work?

My friend had a tyrannical senior associate that would hold her poops so she could bill more.

This makes no sense. Just bring a file with you.

I assume it's because she didn't want to be away from her work phone. It's horrible to work for someone who prefers phone to e-mail, but it does happen.

[09042014]

Only half joking, but should we plan on never pooping at work?

My friend had a tyrannical senior associate that would hold her poops so she could bill more.

This makes no sense. Just bring a file with you.

I assume it's because she didn't want to be away from her work phone. It's horrible to work for someone who prefers phone to e-mail, but it does happen.

Wait were you being serious about hte poor holdr?

[rayiner]

My friend had a tyrannical senior associate that would hold her poops so she could bill more.

This makes no sense. Just bring a file with you.

I assume it's because she didn't want to be away from her work phone. It's horrible to work for someone who prefers phone to e-mail, but it does happen.

Wait were you being serious about hte poor holdr?

My friend quit after a year, was convinced to come back, then quit again a few months later. I don't think I could've stuck it out even that long.

[Anonymous User]

Are cold offers a common thing in NYC vault firms? The reason that I ask is that for a firm with 100% offer rate even through the recession, are there SAs every year getting a cold offer or are these places where it is genuinely very very difficult to not get an offer (short of asking a named partner to start a spin off firm with you as a partner, embezzling from the firm, calling opposing counsel to settle, etc.).

One of the reasons that I ask is that in another thread a poster (IMFG?) suggested asking associates to walk you through a good day, average day, bad day in their practice area. This seems to me like great advice for learning what it is actually like to practice in a particular group, but I would be sort of hesitant to open up this line of conversation (the "walk me through a bad day" part) given that some people are reporting a no offer situation arising over relatively minor shit. For instance, a person who is non-white sharing her/his experience of being racially profiled does not really strike me as inappropriate conversation.

"Chilly" offers are not uncommon among the firms with 100% offer rates. Cold offers happen as well - maybe a couplle a year per firm - but more common is a really negative end of summer review followed by an offer in a practice group they know you're not interested in. That's what I think of as a "chilly" offer because you can accept it and they'll let you come to work and do doc review or whatever for a couple years before they ask you to leave, but you're effectively off the track from day 1.

2 cold offer and more common chilly offers per year, per firm? So, even with a 100% offer rate, you're talking about a firm trying to tell 5-10% of it's class not to come back?

Yeah, I think that sounds about right. This isn't Lake Woebegon - not all summers are above average. I'd say every year, a firm would love nothing more than to cut what it assesses to be the bottom 10% of its summer class, it just can't because of the optics of a less-than 100% offer rate. So you have (rare) cold offers and more common holding nose offers.

[NYSprague]

ludo has a story about the deck shoes today. I feel bad. Getting no offered is awful and unfair. I thought maybe it was helpful to point out what to avoid, because some things matter. Fitting in socially matters. But I feel like a jerk for not considering peoples feelings. Sorry.

[MarkRenton]

This may sound like silly advice but don't have a bad attitude. And by this I mean act happy and excited to do every assignment given to you. Some summers don't want to do more of a certain type of work or don't want to be stuck with some boring assignment, and they make these feelings known. Often just be grunting or rolling their eyes. I mean, yeah, it sucks to have to make a chart of cases with a certain type of holding, but the truth is that the stupider and more mindless the assignment, the more likely you're probably actually helping an attorney out by doing it. After all, no one gives real, complex, substantive work to a summer. Summers all the time act like they're above certain types of work and there's no quicker way to earn a piss poor reputation than by acting like that.

[rayiner]

ludo has a story about the deck shoes today. I feel bad. Getting no offered is awful and unfair. I thought maybe it was helpful to point out what to avoid, because some things matter. Fitting in socially matters. But I feel like a jerk for not considering peoples feelings. Sorry.

Ludo?

[beepboopbeep]

Only half joking, but should we plan on never pooping at work?

My friend had a tyrannical senior associate that would hold her poops so she could bill more.

Wait, the senior held her poops or made the associate hold her poops?

That's not a real question. Really am just tagging because of the entertainment value of all this.

[rayiner]

Only half joking, but should we plan on never pooping at work?

My friend had a tyrannical senior associate that would hold her poops so she could bill more.

Wait, the senior held her poops or made the associate hold her poops?

That's not a real question. Really am just tagging because of the entertainment value of all this.

No, her own. Telling a junior to hold it would be a little crazy.

[beepboopbeep]

Only half joking, but should we plan on never pooping at work?

My friend had a tyrannical senior associate that would hold her poops so she could bill more.

Wait, the senior held her poops or made the associate hold her poops?

That's not a real question. Really am just tagging because of the entertainment value of all this.

No, her own. Telling a junior to hold it would be a little crazy.

Honestly, I believe every horror story I hear at this point.

[Anonymous User]

Accidentally burn a client's tax return and rely on partner's assistant and other Summer Associates to tell the partner. Act like it never happened.

[NYSprague]

ludo has a story about the deck shoes today. I feel bad. Getting no offered is awful and unfair. I thought maybe it was helpful to point out what to avoid, because some things matter. Fitting in socially matters. But I feel like a jerk for not considering peoples feelings. Sorry.

Ludo?

He used to post here. The name of his site was in my post. Ludo stories.com. having trouble linking directly.

[papercut]

Tag.

[beepboopbeep]

ludo has a story about the deck shoes today. I feel bad. Getting no offered is awful and unfair. I thought maybe it was helpful to point out what to avoid, because some things matter. Fitting in socially matters. But I feel like a jerk for not considering peoples feelings. Sorry.

Ludo?

He used to post here. The name of his site was in my post. Ludo stories.com. having trouble linking directly.

http://ludostories.com/2014/05/14/boat-shoes/

Always enjoy these.

[keg411]

This may sound like silly advice but don't have a bad attitude. And by this I mean act happy and excited to do every assignment given to you. Some summers don't want to do more of a certain type of work or don't want to be stuck with some boring assignment, and they make these feelings known. Often just be grunting or rolling their eyes. I mean, yeah, it sucks to have to make a chart of cases with a certain type of holding, but the truth is that the stupider and more mindless the assignment, the more likely you're probably actually helping an attorney out by doing it. After all, no one gives real, complex, substantive work to a summer. Summers all the time act like they're above certain types of work and there's no quicker way to earn a piss poor reputation than by acting like that.

Along these lines: don't complain if you're not getting work in [insert dream practice area]. I don't care how much you've dreamed of doing M&A or International Entertainment Law or whatever -- if your firm wants you to do litigation, do litigation. If they want you to do corporate, do corporate. If they want you to do something else, then do whatever that is. There is a 99.99% chance they know more than you do about this, and there's a reason they're giving you a certain type of work and pushing you towards a certain practice area.

[Danger Zone]

Seems like the biggest tip is "don't be unlucky."

[rad lulz]

Seems like the biggest tip is "don't be unlucky."

yes

[IAFG]

http://ludostories.com/2014/05/14/boat-shoes/

Always enjoy these.

I am a little frustrated by this post. First, the rule "but is it worth RUINING THEIR LIFE over?" is pretty unfair. Take the summer who wildly oversteps their bounds with clients. That guy is a liability. Does his life deserve to be ruined? Well shit I guess not. But that also doesn't mean the firm should have to hire the guy.

Second, not getting an offer out of your summer gig = life ruined? One thing I laugh at myself for now that I work at a firm is my law student mentality about who "deserves" biglaw. Now I would reserve that determination only for the most miserable Tyrranical Midlevel. The people I know who didn't do or got no offered from biglaw are mostly doing gigs lots of people in biglaw would love to exit to. Now, they may never be able to pay their loans back, but I seriously doubt I will be even halfway through mine by the time I exit, so we will be in the same shitty boat.