2013 UVA OGI Thread Forum

[desertlaw]

Bid to SEMJF with a 3.4 (All NY firms) and GPA dropped to median. If I get preselected by a 3.4, do employers ask for updated resumes? Has anyone had an experience with this? I guess the ball is in my court now and I can try to wow them during the interview.

What does the bird in the hand rule say?

I think you just bring your resume with you to the interview like you would any interview. I wouldn't sent it saying "hey look, LOWER grades! What do you think now?"

[Anonymous User]

Almost exactly median and bidding non-NYC major market primarily and filling the rest with NYC offices. I plan to mix a couple NYC firms in with the other city in groups of five until I run out of my primary city's offices. At the top should I be focusing on big class sizes or less selective firms for those NYC offices?

I'm interested in litigation and have an underwhelming resume if that's relevant for this question.

[desertlaw]

Almost exactly median and bidding non-NYC major market primarily and filling the rest with NYC offices. I plan to mix a couple NYC firms in with the other city in groups of five until I run out of my primary city's offices. At the top should I be focusing on big class sizes or less selective firms for those NYC offices?

I'm interested in litigation and have an underwhelming resume if that's relevant for this question.

Ideally you're focusing on the biggest classes of the lesser selective firms. But so is everyone else with median. Put your 1-5 lottery picks as firms that won't auto-ding you. Hustle hustle hustle.

[Anonymous User]

How many interviews are you allowed to keep this year?

23 I think?

If your GPA is over 3.6, 3.65 or so, then your bid list will be almost entirely irrelevant, because you won't be participating in the lottery, unless you decline so many you drop below the limit in hopes of getting a lottery interview with your favorite firm. That's not something I did, but I suppose it's not that risky, KD's admonitions about a bird in hand being better.

But even if you want to do that, nothing more than your very top few will matter at all.

Can you explain how this works. I'm just having issues following the logic.

So if you really want a particular firm, and decline lots of interviews, you get a better ranking slot? Can you just keep it at say 20, so you make sure you get your 3 favorites?

[5ky]

How many interviews are you allowed to keep this year?

23 I think?

If your GPA is over 3.6, 3.65 or so, then your bid list will be almost entirely irrelevant, because you won't be participating in the lottery, unless you decline so many you drop below the limit in hopes of getting a lottery interview with your favorite firm. That's not something I did, but I suppose it's not that risky, KD's admonitions about a bird in hand being better.

But even if you want to do that, nothing more than your very top few will matter at all.

Can you explain how this works. I'm just having issues following the logic.

So if you really want a particular firm, and decline lots of interviews, you get a better ranking slot? Can you just keep it at say 20, so you make sure you get your 3 favorites?

Doesn't the OGI handbook or whatever walk through this for you?

You're only allowed to keep 23 interviews.

The preselect stage comes first. There you find out how many interviews you got selected for. You can keep them or decline them. If you have over 23, you HAVE to decline some.

Next comes the alternate trickle-down stage. Because the very top of the class will have to decline a boatload of interviews, those people selected as alternates will find that their alternate has turned into a preselect. For some people, this will mean that they have now hit the 23 cap and have to drop interviews to be able to pick up the alternate. Note that KD does this manually, contacting each person as needed, over the course of like 24 hours. He is a machine. For others, the alternate turning into a preselect doesn't require declining any preselects because they are under the 23 limit.

Finally comes the lottery. You only participate in the lottery if you have under the 23 limit. If you are at 23, your list is full, so you obviously can't participate. This is where most of the people medianish and below will get the bulk of their interviews from.

As to whether you want to decline interviews to get your number around 20 in hopes of getting your top 3 or so from your bid list is an individual decision. When we went through, KD advocated the bird in hand decision, and wasn't a huge proponent of declining preselects (remember this means that the firm looked over a bunch of resumes and selected your) for the possibility of getting lottery interview (which means the firm looked at your resume and decided it wasn't one of the top 20/40/whatever people they wanted to interview). I don't know the difference in CB rate for preselects/lottery interviews. I have heard it is not as big as you might think, but I am sure it is at least a little lower.

The logic of declining an interview in hopes of getting one of your top 3 or whatever is that you are exchanging a firm you are lukewarm on for the chance of getting to interview at one of your Dream Firms. This is of course a bit silly because the decision is invariably made on lolVault, but I suppose that's better than nothing. You might want to drop your Baker & McKenzie preselect for the chance at a DPW lottery interview, that's perfectly fair. But you can also special request firms you really want, so keep that in mind. I kept all of my interviews and then special requested two I didn't get but were at the top of my list. (unless you aren't allowed to special request if you are at interview cap. this was a gray area during my OGI)

[desertlaw]

What 5ky just said is correct. I think we have covered virtually all possible situations with our advice the past few weeks, but I will still check in every once in awhile.

I would also add these few things: try to schedule callbacks in the same city during the same trip. Flying + hotel travel gets exhausting, no matter how cool it is to travel for free to NYC/LA/Texas and stay in sweet hotels. So if you rack up a few callbacks over the first few days of OGI, try to schedule those callbacks over a period of consecutive days so that you can take 1 trip there. Obviously you might need to go up to DC or NYC twice, but ideally you're not going to LA/SF on multiple trips. That being said, sooner callbacks are better so use your judgment with that. 2 callbacks in a day can be done (exhausting), but 4 in 2 days is probably pushing it. Protip: Schedule 3 callbacks over 4 days if possible and enjoy an extra day in that city. That's aggressive and maybe bold, but it's possible.

Don't worry about missing class. This job is more important than your first few weeks of Secured Transactions. I promise. Just don't stress over it, please.

Make sure your voicemail is professional and your voicemailbox isn't full. And if you're answering phone during OGI season, make sure you're in a place that is quiet and you're able to talk for a few minutes. If not, don't worry, they'll leave a voicemail and you can call them back later.

Once you have an offer you like, and you know you'll like it above other callbacks/interviews you have, cancel those future callbacks/interviews so that 1) you don't get exhausted on things you don't want and 2)lets other students get those spots. But if you're canceling a screening at OGI, make sure to contact Donovan/Patrice about that first.

Yes, order the steak at the callback lunch. You're an elite human and you deserve it.

Stop by the tables at OGI and mingle, pick up free swag. Lots of firms have a check-list to make sure you stop by. It's also a way to get to know the attorneys in a somewhat less formal atmosphere.

Trust your judgment. You have good judgment (I assume) because you're at a great school and a school that prides itself on quality people. Represent our school well, don't end up on ATL. Work hard at preparing, enjoy the process, and don't panic.

[Anonymous User]

If I want to do corporate/transactional work, what are some classes to take in Fall the OGI semester? Do I need to take all corporate-related classes or it does't matter?

[5ky]

If I want to do corporate/transactional work, what are some classes to take in Fall the OGI semester? Do I need to take all corporate-related classes or it does't matter?

People will say it doesn't matter, but I wanted to do corporate and got asked more than once what I was taking in the fall, so I think it's legit.

Anything like Corporations, Secured Transactions, Accounting/Corporate Finance, SecReg,
Agency, Bankruptcy, etc helps to show an interest. You don't have to take 4 of them, but I'd try to at least be signed up for a few.

I think it matters more if your résumé doesn't scream Corporate and they're trying to gauge whether you have any legitimate interest in it or are simply bullshitting them.

[Anonymous User]

If I want to do corporate/transactional work, what are some classes to take in Fall the OGI semester? Do I need to take all corporate-related classes or it does't matter?

People will say it doesn't matter, but I wanted to do corporate and got asked more than once what I was taking in the fall, so I think it's legit.

Anything like Corporations, Secured Transactions, Accounting/Corporate Finance, SecReg,
Agency, Bankruptcy, etc helps to show an interest. You don't have to take 4 of them, but I'd try to at least be signed up for a few.

I think it matters more if your résumé doesn't scream Corporate and they're trying to gauge whether you have any legitimate interest in it or are simply bullshitting them.

Thank you! Much appreciated!

[Anonymous User]

So just how much can we slack off after OGI? If one were above 3.6 with heavy studying but got enough test knowledge that they're a bit over 50% sure they could work a fraction of the amount - maybe 1-2 hours a day and still swing a 3.3 cumulative. If one say had a mid 3.6 GPA coming in, and then went 3.1-3.2 from hereon out is this okay?

If the only benefit of keeping strong grades after OGI is pride and looking smart then I'd much rather spend this time chillaxing and being happier?

[Morgan12Oak]

So just how much can we slack off after OGI? If one were above 3.6 with heavy studying but got enough test knowledge that they're a bit over 50% sure they could work a fraction of the amount - maybe 1-2 hours a day and still swing a 3.3 cumulative. If one say had a mid 3.6 GPA coming in, and then went 3.1-3.2 from hereon out is this okay?

If the only benefit of keeping strong grades after OGI is pride and looking smart then I'd much rather spend this time chillaxing and being happier?

Depends. The things you'd want to maintain GPA are for the following (not listed in any sort of order)

- Order of the Coif is a huge honor (~3.63+ at end of 3L)
- Lateraling to certain firms requires high law school GPAs (you'll never lateral to Gibson Dunn with a 3.3, ever, for example)
- In the event you hate your firm or get no offered, sitting with a 3.5 or a 3.6 is significantly more hopeful than sitting with a 3.3 with a downward trend
- If you ever get an MBA, your law school GPA will be looked at

You'd probably be surprised how little your high GPA is due to your heavy studying. Your heavy studying and high GPA correlation doesn't necessarily imply causation.

[Anonymous User]

So just how much can we slack off after OGI? If one were above 3.6 with heavy studying but got enough test knowledge that they're a bit over 50% sure they could work a fraction of the amount - maybe 1-2 hours a day and still swing a 3.3 cumulative. If one say had a mid 3.6 GPA coming in, and then went 3.1-3.2 from hereon out is this okay?

If the only benefit of keeping strong grades after OGI is pride and looking smart then I'd much rather spend this time chillaxing and being happier?

Depends. The things you'd want to maintain GPA are for the following (not listed in any sort of order)

- Order of the Coif is a huge honor (~3.63+ at end of 3L)
- Lateraling to certain firms requires high law school GPAs (you'll never lateral to Gibson Dunn with a 3.3, ever, for example)
- In the event you hate your firm or get no offered, sitting with a 3.5 or a 3.6 is significantly more hopeful than sitting with a 3.3 with a downward trend
- If you ever get an MBA, your law school GPA will be looked at

You'd probably be surprised how little your high GPA is due to your heavy studying. Your heavy studying and high GPA correlation doesn't necessarily imply causation.

I think it's somewhat related because the classes I got A's in I brought in insane detail, and the ones I got a B+ in were more superficial. I don't know if it's due to studying more, but the people I know who studied a lot generally got above average grades. I'm willing to experiment with not trying hard, and seeing if the GPA stays the same LOL.

[Anonymous User]

I kind of have to agree that studying doesn't always seem to have the strongest correlation to good grades. You certainly can't go into the test without studying at all and expect to get an A, but I certainly saw no correlation between my A's and A-'s. I ended up with a 3.75+ and I arguably did not study as much as my fellow classmates and certainly did not gun.

[Anonymous User]

I kind of have to agree that studying doesn't always seem to have the strongest correlation to good grades. You certainly can't go into the test without studying at all and expect to get an A, but I certainly saw no correlation between my A's and A-'s. I ended up with a 3.75+ and I arguably did not study as much as my fellow classmates and certainly did not gun.

There's no doubt, but you will never know until you measure yourself studying a lot vs. studying modestly. Maybe you would have had a 4.0 if you studied more. At the end of the day, a handful are really good at law school exams and a handful are really lousy so studying won't really change it very much. But between the margins, I def don't think it's a 1:1 and there's a quick point of diminishing returns, but that studying night in and night out was frequently the difference between an A- and B+ or B+ and a B.

[Anonymous User]

I kind of have to agree that studying doesn't always seem to have the strongest correlation to good grades. You certainly can't go into the test without studying at all and expect to get an A, but I certainly saw no correlation between my A's and A-'s. I ended up with a 3.75+ and I arguably did not study as much as my fellow classmates and certainly did not gun.

There's no doubt, but you will never know until you measure yourself studying a lot vs. studying modestly. Maybe you would have had a 4.0 if you studied more. At the end of the day, a handful are really good at law school exams and a handful are really lousy so studying won't really change it very much. But between the margins, I def don't think it's a 1:1 and there's a quick point of diminishing returns, but that studying night in and night out was frequently the difference between an A- and B+ or B+ and a B.

Legitimate analysis.

I will say this, I'm not planning on killing myself as a 2L + 3L, but then I'm also not looking for a V 10 job or anything really prestigious. We are going to be working insane hours, might as well enjoy Charlottesville for a couple of years.

[5ky]

I kind of have to agree that studying doesn't always seem to have the strongest correlation to good grades. You certainly can't go into the test without studying at all and expect to get an A, but I certainly saw no correlation between my A's and A-'s. I ended up with a 3.75+ and I arguably did not study as much as my fellow classmates and certainly did not gun.

There's no doubt, but you will never know until you measure yourself studying a lot vs. studying modestly. Maybe you would have had a 4.0 if you studied more. At the end of the day, a handful are really good at law school exams and a handful are really lousy so studying won't really change it very much. But between the margins, I def don't think it's a 1:1 and there's a quick point of diminishing returns, but that studying night in and night out was frequently the difference between an A- and B+ or B+ and a B.

Legitimate analysis.

I will say this, I'm not planning on killing myself as a 2L + 3L, but then I'm also not looking for a V 10 job or anything really prestigious. We are going to be working insane hours, might as well enjoy Charlottesville for a couple of years.

Ironically, probably the more v10 your job is, the less grades will matter. Mega firms like that are almost always rubber stamps for 100% offers, which things get a bit hairier down the further you go, particularly once you exit the 'big law' framework

[Anonymous User]

I kind of have to agree that studying doesn't always seem to have the strongest correlation to good grades. You certainly can't go into the test without studying at all and expect to get an A, but I certainly saw no correlation between my A's and A-'s. I ended up with a 3.75+ and I arguably did not study as much as my fellow classmates and certainly did not gun.

There's no doubt, but you will never know until you measure yourself studying a lot vs. studying modestly. Maybe you would have had a 4.0 if you studied more. At the end of the day, a handful are really good at law school exams and a handful are really lousy so studying won't really change it very much. But between the margins, I def don't think it's a 1:1 and there's a quick point of diminishing returns, but that studying night in and night out was frequently the difference between an A- and B+ or B+ and a B.

Legitimate analysis.

I will say this, I'm not planning on killing myself as a 2L + 3L, but then I'm also not looking for a V 10 job or anything really prestigious. We are going to be working insane hours, might as well enjoy Charlottesville for a couple of years.

Ironically, probably the more v10 your job is, the less grades will matter. Mega firms like that are almost always rubber stamps for 100% offers, which things get a bit hairier down the further you go, particularly once you exit the 'big law' framework

This may sound silly, but are most Vault 100 firms fairly secure? I'm not really looking at working for any firms outside of that range.

[5ky]

You'll just have to look them up on NALP. It varies by firm and city.

[StanleyF]

So just how much can we slack off after OGI? If one were above 3.6 with heavy studying but got enough test knowledge that they're a bit over 50% sure they could work a fraction of the amount - maybe 1-2 hours a day and still swing a 3.3 cumulative. If one say had a mid 3.6 GPA coming in, and then went 3.1-3.2 from hereon out is this okay?

If the only benefit of keeping strong grades after OGI is pride and looking smart then I'd much rather spend this time chillaxing and being happier?

For what it's worth, on the morning the hiring committee at my firm met to decide which summers to make offers to, one of the partners came to ask me for an updated copy of my transcript. My GPA had actually gone up since OGI. I cannot say that they would have no offered me if I had fallen to median, but I can say that I felt much more confident knowing that my grades were better and not worse.

I can see absolutely nothing to be gained by slacking off after OGI. First, law school is only three years, and when you work "hard," it's really not all that hard, and nothing like life at a big law firm. Second, too many things can change between OGI and graduation. Your firm could decide to cut staff and revoke the offers it made to its summer associates (see class of 2010). Your firm could fold (see Dewey). Do you want to be hitting the non-existent 3L hiring market with a 3.3 when you could have had a 3.6?

Third, and most important, your law school GPA will be your law school GPA for the rest of your life. It will matter to a lot of future employers, though not all. Say you decide you want to work at the DOJ ten years after graduation—they very much care about grades. Or maybe you want to lateral to a firm in a different city. They are going to want to see your grades. Don't cut off future options just because you really want to iron man Feb Club.

[5ky]

So just how much can we slack off after OGI? If one were above 3.6 with heavy studying but got enough test knowledge that they're a bit over 50% sure they could work a fraction of the amount - maybe 1-2 hours a day and still swing a 3.3 cumulative. If one say had a mid 3.6 GPA coming in, and then went 3.1-3.2 from hereon out is this okay?

If the only benefit of keeping strong grades after OGI is pride and looking smart then I'd much rather spend this time chillaxing and being happier?

For what it's worth, on the morning the hiring committee at my firm met to decide which summers to make offers to, one of the partners came to ask me for an updated copy of my transcript. My GPA had actually gone up since OGI. I cannot say that they would have no offered me if I had fallen to median, but I can say that I felt much more confident knowing that my grades were better and not worse.

I can see absolutely nothing to be gained by slacking off after OGI. First, law school is only three years, and when you work "hard," it's really not all that hard, and nothing like life at a big law firm. Second, too many things can change between OGI and graduation. Your firm could decide to cut staff and revoke the offers it made to its summer associates (see class of 2010). Your firm could fold (see Dewey). Do you want to be hitting the non-existent 3L hiring market with a 3.3 when you could have had a 3.6?

Third, and most important, your law school GPA will be your law school GPA for the rest of your life. It will matter to a lot of future employers, though not all. Say you decide you want to work at the DOJ ten years after graduation—they very much care about grades. Or maybe you want to lateral to a firm in a different city. They are going to want to see your grades. Don't cut off future options just because you really want to iron man Feb Club.

Meh, that's a cost-benefit that's up to the individual person, I think. In the short run, it is incredibly unlikely that grades will result in a no-offer. Long-term, sure, there's no benefit to be had from slacking (employment wise), but for a lot of people the risk is probably remote

[StanleyF]

Meh, that's a cost-benefit that's up to the individual person, I think. In the short run, it is incredibly unlikely that grades will result in a no-offer. Long-term, sure, there's no benefit to be had from slacking (employment wise), but for a lot of people the risk is probably remote

The risk is not remote that your law school grades will matter at some point in the future. Everyone on this message board will likely work for several different employers in their lifetime. Many will change jobs two, three or five years out of law school. Their GPA will absolutely be a consideration to those potential employers. Why close off future options for very little gain in the present? Sorry, but if having a fall break, Thanksgiving break, Christmas break and spring break isn't enough time off, then the working world is going to be a very unpleasant place with any employer, let alone a big law employer.

[5ky]

Well I meant it was remote for that group of people who aren't going to be lateraling in big law or gunning for big fed. for a lot of things grades will matter, there's no doubt.

But i'm going to let them cook, it's an individual choice

[Anonymous User]

So just how much can we slack off after OGI? If one were above 3.6 with heavy studying but got enough test knowledge that they're a bit over 50% sure they could work a fraction of the amount - maybe 1-2 hours a day and still swing a 3.3 cumulative. If one say had a mid 3.6 GPA coming in, and then went 3.1-3.2 from hereon out is this okay?

If the only benefit of keeping strong grades after OGI is pride and looking smart then I'd much rather spend this time chillaxing and being happier?

For what it's worth, on the morning the hiring committee at my firm met to decide which summers to make offers to, one of the partners came to ask me for an updated copy of my transcript. My GPA had actually gone up since OGI. I cannot say that they would have no offered me if I had fallen to median, but I can say that I felt much more confident knowing that my grades were better and not worse.

I can see absolutely nothing to be gained by slacking off after OGI. First, law school is only three years, and when you work "hard," it's really not all that hard, and nothing like life at a big law firm. Second, too many things can change between OGI and graduation. Your firm could decide to cut staff and revoke the offers it made to its summer associates (see class of 2010). Your firm could fold (see Dewey). Do you want to be hitting the non-existent 3L hiring market with a 3.3 when you could have had a 3.6?

Third, and most important, your law school GPA will be your law school GPA for the rest of your life. It will matter to a lot of future employers, though not all. Say you decide you want to work at the DOJ ten years after graduation—they very much care about grades. Or maybe you want to lateral to a firm in a different city. They are going to want to see your grades. Don't cut off future options just because you really want to iron man Feb Club.

Disregard this guy's lecture on the morality of hard work if it's not right for you. People do law school in different ways. If you're already inclined to slack off, you're going to do it (even if you think you might not). You'll still work hard enough during finals 2L year to be okay gpa-wise even with something of a drop. And if you really drop 2L fall, you can always adjust 2L spring to bring your cumulative gpa back up. Lots of us have done things this way. You probably value your own happiness more than the self-validation that comes with a high gpa. And you already got the one that matters most. Get a great job, and then hit the outline bank/Leslie circuit if you want to. That said, it's not unreasonable to stay above median every semester while being mostly checked out.

[Anonymous User]

If you are close to Coif, gun for it for sure. It's a huge honor, and it will help you throughout your career.

However, if you've got a biglaw offer and you're sitting at a 3.4, I definitely think you should try to maintain it, but I don't think you'll be completely SOL if you let it drop to a 3.3. The difference between Coif and no Coif is huge, but the difference between a 3.4 and a 3.6 is not. I'm sorry, but that's just the truth (coming from a real biglaw associate here). No one on the hiring committee is going to take the time to look up UVA's grading scale every time they see a new applicant. They're going to look at your resume, see that you don't have "Coif" on it and make whatever assumptions they will make from there on. (TBF, your resume won't even be on their desk in the first place if you don't make the firm's minimum grade cutoff, so this is one reason to maintain your 1L GPA if you plan on lateraling. But once you get past the minimum cutoff, people aren't sitting around a conference table saying, "Well gee, I wonder why he got a B in Fed Courts? If he just would have gotten an A- or higher, we'd give him an offer!" For UVA, I believe the minimum cutoff is at or below a 3.4 for the vast majority of biglaw firms based on my conversations with Dean Donavan and people at my and other firms. It's probably a 3.5 or maybe even higher for some of the uber elite boutiques.)

However, I wouldn't consider yourself screwed if you miss out on Coif. There are plenty of current partners and associates at the most prestigious firms (including WLRK) who graduated from UVA without Coif, and there are also people with Coif on their resumes who are currently eDiscovery slaves. (I know some of them personally. They're mostly there by choice, but it shows a divergence of career paths that bears no correlation with GPA whatsoever.) Are you going to be a law professor or a SCOTUS clerk with a 3.3? Of course not. But you already knew that after 1L! Obviously, the importance of your GPA varies greatly from firm to firm, and it's certainly more important early in your career than it is later in your career. You're always going to get some pencil-necked, aspie nerds like some of the posters in this thread who value a 3.55 GPA over a 3.45 to the extent that they will sacrifice a better personality/fit for a not-as-good one as long as they get the higher GPA person. But these people are outliers and generally promote the importance of grades to compensate for their own lack of non-grades credentials (past work experience, personality, etc.). In summary, I would ignore the subtle humble brag and prestige whoring on this site and in law school. Just do the best you can with the assumption that 2L/3L grades are important, but not nearly as important as 1L grades.

[sundance95]

However, I wouldn't consider yourself screwed if you miss out on Coif.

Obvious statement is obvious. 90% of the class doesn't get Coif, and (far) less than 90% get nojerb pwned.