No-offered summer associate. FML Forum

[09042014]

This thread has fast become useless for those of us facing the horrible reality of a no offer, and wanting advise on how to deal with it. I am not OP, but I don't think the thread was meant to be some theoretical discussion of the causes or ethics of a no offer.

Agreed. No-offered at v10 for "grades" (seriously).

Wtf? That was the only reason?

I'm sure it couldn't've been, but it was all they were willing to tell me. Very suspicious.

You probably pissed someone off, or have aspergers. But telling you it was grades was kind of a blessing. You can walk into an interview and say "they said it was only my grades that was the problem."

[Anonymous User]

+1 here as well...sucks because they made it seem like everyone would be getting an offer on the last day. Is it ok to ask them to change a no offer to a cold offer?

Mine was like that as well, it really came out of left field. There's no harm in asking; I asked, and they said it would be fine.

[Tanicius]

I'm sure it couldn't've been, but it was all they were willing to tell me. Very suspicious.

You probably pissed someone off, or have aspergers. But telling you it was grades was kind of a blessing. You can walk into an interview and say "they said it was only my grades that was the problem."

I dunno. The people in the interview would probably come to the same conclusion you just did.

[Anonymous User]

get an art iii c'ship, maybe two

[09042014]

I'm sure it couldn't've been, but it was all they were willing to tell me. Very suspicious.

You probably pissed someone off, or have aspergers. But telling you it was grades was kind of a blessing. You can walk into an interview and say "they said it was only my grades that was the problem."

I dunno. The people in the interview would probably come to the same conclusion you just did.

Maybe. But I've done 9 screeners for 3LOLCI and 7 didn't even ask about offers. So they might not care that much.

[09042014]

get an art iii c'ship, maybe two

Maybe 20% of SA's have a credible shot at A3shipping.

[Tanicius]

I'm sure it couldn't've been, but it was all they were willing to tell me. Very suspicious.

You probably pissed someone off, or have aspergers. But telling you it was grades was kind of a blessing. You can walk into an interview and say "they said it was only my grades that was the problem."

I dunno. The people in the interview would probably come to the same conclusion you just did.

Maybe. But I've done 9 screeners for 3LOLCI and 7 didn't even ask about offers. So they might not care that much.

That's interesting. They probably just assume you didn't get the offer or that you wouldn't be there otherwise. I guess they go into 3L OCI with that assumption, so if they're willing to hire 3L's it's probably not a bad thing that someone was no-offered in the first place.

[JazzOne]

I'm sure it couldn't've been, but it was all they were willing to tell me. Very suspicious.

You probably pissed someone off, or have aspergers. But telling you it was grades was kind of a blessing. You can walk into an interview and say "they said it was only my grades that was the problem."

I dunno. The people in the interview would probably come to the same conclusion you just did.

Maybe. But I've done 9 screeners for 3LOLCI and 7 didn't even ask about offers. So they might not care that much.

How is it you ended up doing 3L OCI? I'm out of the loop.

[BruceWayne]

I dunno. The people in the interview would probably come to the same conclusion you just did.

LMAO people really just can't believe that someone could be no-offered for grades? The TLS mantra just has to be right all the time doesn't it?

I know from experience that grades--regardless of what garbage is pushed on here--still matter at the summer stage. But even if I didn't have the personal knowledge I just don't get where that idea came from in the first place. So even though grades are essentially the only thing that matters before getting the job, people suddenly think they become meaningless after you start working as an intern? Seriously? If you have bad grades they can get you no offered. The only 3L interviewer who might think someone with bad grades who didn't get an offer and says that that was the reason why is a recent law school graduate who takes TLS mantra as gospel.

[09042014]

You probably pissed someone off, or have aspergers. But telling you it was grades was kind of a blessing. You can walk into an interview and say "they said it was only my grades that was the problem."

I dunno. The people in the interview would probably come to the same conclusion you just did.

Maybe. But I've done 9 screeners for 3LOLCI and 7 didn't even ask about offers. So they might not care that much.

How is it you ended up doing 3L OCI? I'm out of the loop.

Waiting for news either way. Doing the interviews just in case.

[Tanicius]

I dunno. The people in the interview would probably come to the same conclusion you just did.

LMAO people really just can't believe that someone could be no-offered for grades? The TLS mantra just has to be right all the time doesn't it?

I know from experience that grades--regardless of what garbage is pushed on here--still matter at the summer stage. But even if I didn't have the personal knowledge I just don't get where that idea came from in the first place. So even though grades are essentially the only thing that matters before getting the job, people suddenly think they become meaningless after you start working as an intern? Seriously? If you have bad grades they can get you no offered. The only 3L interviewer who might think someone with bad grades who didn't get an offer and says that that was the reason why is a recent law school graduate who takes TLS mantra as gospel.

Oh, that's actually something I completely forgot about. This whole time I've been thinking the firm meant his 1L grades, which makes a lot less sense obviously.

[Anonymous User]

I know from experience that grades--regardless of what garbage is pushed on here--still matter at the summer stage.

Blanket statements are silly. I got my offer before my firm even saw my grades.

[Old Gregg]

Final performance review they said there is a 50/50 chance of an offer. FML. Do I just withdraw before the no offer gets to me?

I was there last summer. It's tough. I didn't withdraw because I didn't honestly know that was an option (perhaps I should have consulted TLS!). How much time do you have before you find out? My firm took 3 (agonizing) weeks to get back to me. In the meantime I signed up for OCI and cried on the phone with OCS, because my grades were in the gutter and my life was over (it wasn't). I know it's super close to OCI right now, but if you can hustle for the next couple of weeks BEFORE you find out, then you can honestly say that you are exploring other options and your firm hasn't made decisions yet. In the end I ended up with an offer, so it all worked out but I spent 3 weeks knowing I wasn't going to get one, rather than not doing anything and hoping for one. I suggest approaching it like you've been no offered, only with the benefit of not having to say you didn't get one. Good luck. I hope you have good news soon.

Looks like I'll at least get a cold offer from the firm and the hiring partner said it still looks like a 50/50 shot, so not to worry too much (as if!). He advised against withdrawing because of the likelihood of the cold offer, but was glad I was so proactive in negotiating in advance. Already hustling OCI and might have some solid things on the table.

That partner can go fuck himself.

[thesealocust]

I dunno. The people in the interview would probably come to the same conclusion you just did.

LMAO people really just can't believe that someone could be no-offered for grades? The TLS mantra just has to be right all the time doesn't it?

I know from experience that grades--regardless of what garbage is pushed on here--still matter at the summer stage. But even if I didn't have the personal knowledge I just don't get where that idea came from in the first place. So even though grades are essentially the only thing that matters before getting the job, people suddenly think they become meaningless after you start working as an intern? Seriously? If you have bad grades they can get you no offered. The only 3L interviewer who might think someone with bad grades who didn't get an offer and says that that was the reason why is a recent law school graduate who takes TLS mantra as gospel.

The legal market is huge - some firms probably consider grades when making offers. But there's plenty of evidence to suggest that the majority of them don't. The statistics suggest it (most firms give offers to most summers, some actually do give 100% offers), the anecdotes suggest it (plenty of people with grades that dropped got offers, plenty of people got offers before furnishing 2L grades to their firms), and plenty of inside knowledge suggests it (i.e. partners and recruiters flat out admitting it doesn't matter).

The reason is also clear: when hiring 1Ls the firms have far, far more applicants than slots. They have to 'cull the heard' somehow, and 1L grades are at least a rough proxy for intelligence, work ethic, and pain-tolerance.

After 1L year, grades are easily gamed (at most schools) and firms have much more important data about you: how you work and fit in over a several week trial at the firm. 2L year, you didn't get smarter or dumber, no matter what your grades say. And most firms with big summer programs plan them out so that if all goes well they don't need to give out no-offers, so there's no more reason to find a way to screen people. Simply put, your 2L grades provide no useful data to the firm about your ability to do the things they'll need you to do as a lawyer - especially compared with your performance over the summer.

I've had conversations with several hiring partners who have bemoaned the fact that they even need to use grades for 1Ls. Grades simply don't predict how somebody will work at the firm very well.

[Anonymous User]

You're not totally fucked. Just 98% hosed.

[3ThrowAway99]

You probably pissed someone off, or have aspergers. But telling you it was grades was kind of a blessing. You can walk into an interview and say "they said it was only my grades that was the problem."

Desert Fox, to the fucking rescue. LOL. Good luck though with your gig, DF.

But, yeah, what you got against aspergers braeh? You're an engineer right? I think that is one of the factors considered in the DSM...

[3ThrowAway99]

You're not totally fucked. Just 98% hosed.

#shitboomerburnedinelegy@riottt

[Lieut Kaffee]

Do most firms really ask for grades? My SA and offer are both behind me, and my firm never asked for or otherwise alluded to my 2L grades, from either semester. Out of the norm?

[TruckerD]

Well I got no-offered today. Big national firm, large southern market. My experience at the firm was great, I made some good friends, and I got mostly good reviews (though there were a couple where people said specific things I could do better.) Today the hiring partner told me there was no problem with my work or personality but they just didn't have room for me. (I'm not sure I believe this). At least one other SA was not offered and given the same reason.

I don't think my life is over (been around the block more times than that), but I do wonder what the proper course is now. I already have a federal clerkship in the district where my law school is located. My school is top 25-30, and I am 3rd in my class. The firm where I did my SA is the only one that offered me for the summer (out of loads and loads of resumes and 8 CBs). Part of me says I'm simply too far outside their mold to make it work with a firm -- I'm 35, not attractive, fat, bald, etc, and a total nerd.

So here's the question -- should I start sending out loads of resumes and trying to do 3L OCI, or should I apply for an appellate clerkship while hoping to meet firms during my district clerkship? Should I give up on firms entirely and go get a PhD or maybe an international LLM and take the foreign service exam; should I go in-between and try to get an LLM from somewhere that would improve my chances with firms?

Anyway, to the OP, I feel your pain and I hope the advice here works out for us.

[Lieut Kaffee]

Well I got no-offered today. Big national firm, large southern market. My experience at the firm was great, I made some good friends, and I got mostly good reviews (though there were a couple where people said specific things I could do better.) Today the hiring partner told me there was no problem with my work or personality but they just didn't have room for me. (I'm not sure I believe this). At least one other SA was not offered and given the same reason.

I don't think my life is over (been around the block more times than that), but I do wonder what the proper course is now. I already have a federal clerkship in the district where my law school is located. My school is top 25-30, and I am 3rd in my class. The firm where I did my SA is the only one that offered me for the summer (out of loads and loads of resumes and 8 CBs). Part of me says I'm simply too far outside their mold to make it work with a firm -- I'm 35, not attractive, fat, bald, etc, and a total nerd.

So here's the question -- should I start sending out loads of resumes and trying to do 3L OCI, or should I apply for an appellate clerkship while hoping to meet firms during my district clerkship? Should I give up on firms entirely and go get a PhD or maybe an international LLM and take the foreign service exam; should I go in-between and try to get an LLM from somewhere that would improve my chances with firms?

Anyway, to the OP, I feel your pain and I hope the advice here works out for us.

I could be wrong, but my understanding is that you'll be an attractive application to numerous big law firms coming out of your federal clerkship. That's why the standard advice ITT is "APPLY FOR ALL THE CLERKSHIPS." You're in a pretty enviable position among the no-offered. 3LOCI couldn't hurt, to get something lined up sooner rather than later, but I don't think you're behind the 8 ball.

I do know another person who was no-offered despite being told their work product and personality were both good fits. Another "we're sorry we don't have enough room" situation. It sucks, and I'm sorry it happened to you. Good luck.

[englawyer]

Well I got no-offered today. Big national firm, large southern market. My experience at the firm was great, I made some good friends, and I got mostly good reviews (though there were a couple where people said specific things I could do better.) Today the hiring partner told me there was no problem with my work or personality but they just didn't have room for me. (I'm not sure I believe this). At least one other SA was not offered and given the same reason.

I don't think my life is over (been around the block more times than that), but I do wonder what the proper course is now. I already have a federal clerkship in the district where my law school is located. My school is top 25-30, and I am 3rd in my class. The firm where I did my SA is the only one that offered me for the summer (out of loads and loads of resumes and 8 CBs). Part of me says I'm simply too far outside their mold to make it work with a firm -- I'm 35, not attractive, fat, bald, etc, and a total nerd.

So here's the question -- should I start sending out loads of resumes and trying to do 3L OCI, or should I apply for an appellate clerkship while hoping to meet firms during my district clerkship? Should I give up on firms entirely and go get a PhD or maybe an international LLM and take the foreign service exam; should I go in-between and try to get an LLM from somewhere that would improve my chances with firms?

Anyway, to the OP, I feel your pain and I hope the advice here works out for us.

You will find something after the federal clerkship. But lose weight during the clerkship just to be sure

[TruckerD]

Thanks Y'all. I found out that at least 3 of the SA's did not get offers. I wonder if I can get away with saying that to other firms?

[rad lulz]

Thanks Y'all. I found out that at least 3 of the SA's did not get offers. I wonder if I can get away with saying that to other firms?

Big Bham firm?

[TruckerD]

Not Bham, a bigger market.

[goldeneye]

is sadsituationJD 'areyouinsane'? sounds eerily familiar. "boiler room", "electricians"