2011 Top 50 Go-To Law Schools Forum

[dakatz]

Hopefully these numbers stop people from throwing around advice like "sure, sticker for a T10 school is a great idea" so easily. I'm not saying this advice is always wrong, but these figures indicate that we should be qualifying this advice and really encouraging people to assess their options. Finding a balance between scholarship $$ and ranking/prestige seems to be of the utmost importance now given the skyrocketing tuition and bleak job prospects. "Go to the best school you get into" is a piece of advice that is becoming less and less relevant by the day. At the same time, "take the biggest scholarship you can get" is equally poor advice, because we clearly see what is happening at lower ranked schools. Finding a balance is more important now that it ever was before.

[facetious]

i think what may help explain NYU's numbers (full disclosure: nyu 1L) is that we place significantly more people into PI than chicago. looking at past years, chicago has about 1-2% into PI, whereas nyu is consistently around 10-15%. that is a huge difference, particularly when a lot of so-called prestigious PI is incredibly competitive. thus, you have have a disproportionate number of above-median NYU students going into PI compared to chicago (and other peer schools). so, take that into consideration before jumping to nyu=TTT conclusions.

[thesealocust]

Hopefully these numbers stop people from throwing around advice like "sure, sticker for a T10 school is a great idea" so easily. I'm not saying this advice is always wrong, but these figures indicate that we should be qualifying this advice and really encouraging people to assess their options. Finding a balance between scholarship $$ and ranking/prestige seems to be of the utmost importance now given the skyrocketing tuition and bleak job prospects. "Go to the best school you get into" is a piece of advice that is becoming less and less relevant by the day. At the same time, "take the biggest scholarship you can get" is equally poor advice, because we clearly see what is happening at lower ranked schools. Finding a balance is more important now that it ever was before.

Sticker at a T10 is still probably a good deal. These are starting first year associates, so the numbers do not include: (1) federal clerks, (2) public interest work, or (3) federal government working. Summing up those my guess every top school is still looking at 2/3 or more of the class getting very desirable, loan-repaying legal work.

That's a lot of risk, and not a no-brainer, but for most people a T10 is still quite worth the investment. For a lot of people it may not be, and it should be a careful decision no doubt - but I think the numbers still back the choice up.

[paulinaporizkova]

i think what may help explain NYU's numbers (full disclosure: nyu 1L) is that we place significantly more people into PI than chicago. looking at past years, chicago has about 1-2% into PI, whereas nyu is consistently around 10-15%. that is a huge difference, particularly when a lot of so-called prestigious PI is incredibly competitive. thus, you have have a disproportionate number of above-median NYU students going into PI compared to chicago (and other peer schools). so, take that into consideration before jumping to nyu=TTT conclusions.

i was thinking this too. isn't NYU a PI powerhouse??

[beachbum]

Between the last two years of data, I think the only 0Ls who should be reconsidering where they attend (amongst the top schools) are those who are headed to NYU at sticker (or near-sticker). I just don't get it. NYU has the benefit of a (relatively) strong market in NYC, and it doesn't have a small class size to help explain its underwhelming performance.

When you combine this with the sky-high COL, I think it would definitely be worthwhile to review or reconsider a decision to attend NYU at full cost. The return on investment just isn't there relative to peer (?) schools, particularly when many NYU-caliber applicants receive scholarships at MVPDNC.

don't forget wustl. no one should ever attend wustl even if they pay you. bu or bust amirite?

Nah, I think WUSTL ended up about where we thought it would, all things considered. BU/BC/Fordham may have outperformed the group this year, but I'd still label the ND/Emory/GW/Fordham/WUSTL/BU group as peers. I don't think attending any of them at sticker is a good call, but this new data isn't game-changing, either.

To me, the most surprising were Cornell, NYU, Duke, and Vandy. Cornell, Duke, and Vandy, I think, can be at least partially explained by small class sizes and bidding strategy/target markets. NYU is the only one that, when combined with last year's data, should give 0Ls serious pause. If I was thinking about NYU (i.e. if I had better numbers...), I would now seriously consider taking the money at MVPDNC instead.

Edit: Also, I think you have me confused with Blind Melon.

[beachbum]

i think what may help explain NYU's numbers (full disclosure: nyu 1L) is that we place significantly more people into PI than chicago. looking at past years, chicago has about 1-2% into PI, whereas nyu is consistently around 10-15%. that is a huge difference, particularly when a lot of so-called prestigious PI is incredibly competitive. thus, you have have a disproportionate number of above-median NYU students going into PI compared to chicago (and other peer schools). so, take that into consideration before jumping to nyu=TTT conclusions.

ah, didn't know this about NYU

[dabbadon8]

The numbers look bad but I was honestly expecting worst with all the gloom and doom thrown around. Like someone said, when you factor in clerks, PI, gov, people who went to boutiques etc, it isn't looking so incredibly bad in the T14. Not ideal obviously but not so terrible as to completely lose hope.

[lawyerwannabe]

Is Duke still a desirable school to attend? This is scaryyyy...

I do understand that NLJ =/= BigLaw. And you can always factor in PI or clerkships. And that by the time the Class of 2014 does OCI, these statistics will be four years old.

BUT how much will the economy be recovered by then!?!?!

[thesealocust]

Is Duke still a desirable school to attend? This is scaryyyy...

ITE is 'over'. The worst two years were OCI '08 / Class of '10 and OCI '09 / Class of '11. Class of '12 things were rough but not nearly this apocalyptic. Unless there's another crash that pushes no offers, the T14 are likely to all place better from here on out.

Of course, crashes happen, as we all learned.

[beachbum]

Is Duke still a desirable school to attend? This is scaryyyy...

I do understand that NLJ =/= BigLaw. And you can always factor in PI or clerkships. And that by the time the Class of 2014 does OCI, these statistics will be four years old.

BUT how much will the economy be recovered by then!?!?!

For comparison purposes, the last two years:

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... 2443758843

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... 2428438260

Small fluctuations are going to reflect on Duke in a big way due to its small class size. If you have 20 people who bid on the wrong markets/firms, or who end up in PI/Midlaw/clerkships (instead of BigLaw), or who just get unlucky, than you're looking at a 10% drop in NLJ placement. On the flipside, schools with larger class sizes are much more insulated against these large swings in percentage.

Duke is still a good school, and is still a peer of MVP, and I'm still going to attend in the fall.

[violinst]

While NLJ =/= BigLaw, students at Cornell do not normally venture out of the Northeast. So it's safe to assume that the vast majority of Cornell grads who have NLJ jobs actually have BigLaw jobs.

[UnitarySpace]

Is Duke still a desirable school to attend? This is scaryyyy...

I do understand that NLJ =/= BigLaw. And you can always factor in PI or clerkships. And that by the time the Class of 2014 does OCI, these statistics will be four years old.

BUT how much will the economy be recovered by then!?!?!

For comparison purposes, the last two years:

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... 2443758843

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... 2428438260

Small fluctuations are going to reflect on Duke in a big way due to its small class size. If you have 20 people who bid on the wrong markets/firms, or who end up in PI/Midlaw/clerkships (instead of BigLaw), or who just get unlucky, than you're looking at a 10% drop in NLJ placement. On the flipside, schools with larger class sizes are much more insulated against these large swings in percentage.

Duke is still a good school, and is still a peer of MVP, and I'm still going to attend in the fall.

Duke is a great school, but since when has it been considered a peer of MVP?

[Nicholasnickynic]

Chicago 58.97%
Cornell 58.33%
Columbia 55.20%
Penn 53.31%
Harvard 49.74%
Virginia 46.79%
Berkeley 45.61%
Northwestern 44.37%
NYU 43.27%
10
Michigan 42.47%
Stanford 41.62%
Duke 38.03%
Georgetown 37.58%
UCLA 35.14%
Yale 33.84%
BC 33.58%
BU 30.00%
Vanderbilt 29.81%
USC 28.72%
20
Texas 26.65%
Fordham 25.68%
GW 24.76%
Notre Dame 23.84%
Emory 21.18%
WUSTL 18.96%
Illinois 17.85%
SMU 16.22%
W&M 15.42%
UC-Davis 15.38%
30
Wake Forest 15.06%
Howard 15.04%
Georgia State 13.58%
Seton Hall 12.81%
Cardozo 12.60%
UC-Hastings 12.41%
Wisconsin 12.30%
Iowa 12.18%
Maryland 11.98%
Minnesota 11.97%
40
Villanova 11.91%
North Carolina 11.81%
Ohio State 11.62%
Houston 11.62%
Tulane 11.51%
Georgia 11.47%
Temple 11.26%
BYU 11.03%
Loyola - Chi 10.90%
Rutgers-Newark 10.85%
W&L 10.57%

SUCK IT UNC! Last year we beat them like 18-16. I wonder if we will beat them in clerkships again, too?

wake forest =

[jcunni5]

i think what may help explain NYU's numbers (full disclosure: nyu 1L) is that we place significantly more people into PI than chicago. looking at past years, chicago has about 1-2% into PI, whereas nyu is consistently around 10-15%. that is a huge difference, particularly when a lot of so-called prestigious PI is incredibly competitive. thus, you have have a disproportionate number of above-median NYU students going into PI compared to chicago (and other peer schools). so, take that into consideration before jumping to nyu=TTT conclusions.

NYU has always put alot of people in PI but this does not explain it's poor placement. NYU had always put 60%+ into biglaw in the past which is more or less equal to what cornell has put in, in the past. So there is something wrong going on at NYU, not sure what it is though it certainly is a good school

2008 numbers
http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... hbxlogin=1

[facetious]

i think what may help explain NYU's numbers (full disclosure: nyu 1L) is that we place significantly more people into PI than chicago. looking at past years, chicago has about 1-2% into PI, whereas nyu is consistently around 10-15%. that is a huge difference, particularly when a lot of so-called prestigious PI is incredibly competitive. thus, you have have a disproportionate number of above-median NYU students going into PI compared to chicago (and other peer schools). so, take that into consideration before jumping to nyu=TTT conclusions.

NYU has always put alot of people in PI but this does not explain it's poor placement. NYU had always put 60%+ into biglaw in the past which is more or less equal to what cornell has put in, in the past. So there is something wrong going on at NYU, not sure what it is though it certainly is a good school

2008 numbers
http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... hbxlogin=1

right, that's a fair point and i think adds to the mystery of our numbers. i can only speculate that perhaps those on the fence between PI and firm work had less persuasion to join the ranks of biglaw given ITE. or perhaps OCS started pushing PI when the economy tanked out, and given our LRAP and pretty solid PI options for people interested in it, it may have been more of an option for people than in previous years because of the economy. i'm not sure how convincing that argument is, but its the only thing that comes to mind. but maybe i am just biased and trying to rationalize these genuinely disturbing numbers.

[funkyturds]

Uchicago student here.


....

[twistedwrister]

i think what may help explain NYU's numbers (full disclosure: nyu 1L) is that we place significantly more people into PI than chicago. looking at past years, chicago has about 1-2% into PI, whereas nyu is consistently around 10-15%. that is a huge difference, particularly when a lot of so-called prestigious PI is incredibly competitive. thus, you have have a disproportionate number of above-median NYU students going into PI compared to chicago (and other peer schools). so, take that into consideration before jumping to nyu=TTT conclusions.

NYU has always put alot of people in PI but this does not explain it's poor placement. NYU had always put 60%+ into biglaw in the past which is more or less equal to what cornell has put in, in the past. So there is something wrong going on at NYU, not sure what it is though it certainly is a good school

2008 numbers
http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... hbxlogin=1

NYU 3L here. I'm a bit surprised by the NYU number, but not shocked. NYU's c/o 2010 clerkship numbers were extremely good (5-10% more of the class (25-50 more students) got clerkships in comparison to previous years), which accounts for some, if not all, of the lower NLJ 250 %.

[mez06]

Chicago 58.97%
Cornell 58.33%
Columbia 55.20%
Penn 53.31%
Harvard 49.74%
Virginia 46.79%
Berkeley 45.61%
Northwestern 44.37%
NYU 43.27%
10
Michigan 42.47%
Stanford 41.62%
Duke 38.03%
Georgetown 37.58%
UCLA 35.14%
Yale 33.84%
BC 33.58%
BU 30.00%
Vanderbilt 29.81%
USC 28.72%
20
Texas 26.65%
Fordham 25.68%
GW 24.76%
Notre Dame 23.84%
Emory 21.18%
WUSTL 18.96%
Illinois 17.85%
SMU 16.22%
W&M 15.42%
UC-Davis 15.38%
30
Wake Forest 15.06%
Howard 15.04%
Georgia State 13.58%
Seton Hall 12.81%
Cardozo 12.60%
UC-Hastings 12.41%
Wisconsin 12.30%
Iowa 12.18%
Maryland 11.98%
Minnesota 11.97%
40
Villanova 11.91%
North Carolina 11.81%
Ohio State 11.62%
Houston 11.62%
Tulane 11.51%
Georgia 11.47%
Temple 11.26%
BYU 11.03%
Loyola - Chi 10.90%
Rutgers-Newark 10.85%
W&L 10.57%

SUCK IT UNC! Last year we beat them like 18-16. I wonder if we will beat them in clerkships again, too?

wake forest =

This UNC vs Wake trend is baffling. For a fact, UNC students do tend to lean towards PI and Gov't work though. I'm unsure of the percentage but the number at UNC who do, greatly outnumbers those at WF. Seems like just about everyone who goes to Wake is interested in firm work. Though it places about 5 or so more students in the top 250, I'm unsure as to how accurate of a picture that paints due to personal selection.

[tgir]

These numbers are almost meaningless, at least in terms of comparing schools, without knowing where the displaced students ended up, especially with regard to clerkships.

[twistedwrister]

These numbers are almost meaningless, at least in terms of comparing schools, without knowing where the displaced students ended up, especially with regard to clerkships.

Agreed - see my post above re NYU and clerkships. Perhaps this also accounts for Stanford's big drop.

[showNprove]

Looking at NLJ250 placement pre-recession (average of C/O 2007 and 2008) versus NLJ250 placement of first class to do OCI post-recession (C/O 2010):

1. Cornell, -3.8%
2. Yale, -4.7%
3. Harvard, -9.6%
4. Virginia, -10.9%
5. Georgetown, -11.2%
6. Chicago, -11.9%
7. Stanford, -12.2%
8. Berkeley, -12.5%
9. Michigan, -13.2%
10. Penn, -15.0%
11. Columbia, -17.5%
12. Duke, -22.5%
13. Northwestern, -23.8%
14. NYU, -25.8%

Yale (unsurprisingly) and Cornell (surprisingly) are weathering the storm best. The next seven schools are all within 5% points of change. NYU and Duke, and to a lesser extent Penn and Columbia, got hammered by relying on the inflated NYC market. I know the Chicago market is bad, but I can't explain why Northwestern is feeling the effects much more than U of C. I know Northwestern relies on the Chicago market more, but I thought U of C was primarily Chicago and NYC, both of which got hit hard.

[thesealocust]

Yale (unsurprisingly) and Cornell (surprisingly) are weathering the storm best.

I'm not so sure about Yale - I'd be interested in seeing how they do with clerk data (like you compiled here: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 1&t=108528). Word on the street is that they got hit hard on clerk hiring (probably still #1 in placement, but not by a mile any longer), which would make they're biglaw drop look much worse.

[showNprove]

Yale (unsurprisingly) and Cornell (surprisingly) are weathering the storm best.

I'm not so sure about Yale - I'd be interested in seeing how they do with clerk data (like you compiled here: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 1&t=108528). Word on the street is that they got hit hard on clerk hiring (probably still #1 in placement, but not by a mile any longer), which would make they're biglaw drop look much worse.

Does anyone know where to get Article III clerkship data for the C/O 2010? (other than calling the schools and asking them)

[thesealocust]

Yale (unsurprisingly) and Cornell (surprisingly) are weathering the storm best.

I'm not so sure about Yale - I'd be interested in seeing how they do with clerk data (like you compiled here: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 1&t=108528). Word on the street is that they got hit hard on clerk hiring (probably still #1 in placement, but not by a mile any longer), which would make they're biglaw drop look much worse.

Does anyone know where to get Article III clerkship data for the C/O 2010? (other than calling the schools and asking them)

It's released with the U.S. News rankings every year, and that's in March or April, isn't it?

[tgir]

It's released with the U.S. News rankings every year, and that's in March or April, isn't it?

It'll be class of 2009 clerkship stats, though, won't it?