Consulting - the end of a legal career? Forum

[Seally]

Are JD/MBA's more likely to get a consulting job than JD only? How easy is it to get one of these jobs?

Not really, it will all come down to your grades and network, either on JD or JD/MBA.

Personnally, JD/MBAs are useless unless you want a good asset to compete for F500 Business/Law Jobs.
And 3 years JD/MBAs are brutal, failure rate is a lot higher there, be ready to pull all-nighters from beginning to end if you want to succeed in these programs.

Getting a Consulting position at the Big firms is competitive, but less than let's say, Investment Banking.

[ruski]

Are JD/MBA's more likely to get a consulting job than JD only? How easy is it to get one of these jobs?

Not really, it will all come down to your grades and network, either on JD or JD/MBA.

Personnally, JD/MBAs are useless unless you want a good asset to compete for F500 Business/Law Jobs.
And 3 years JD/MBAs are brutal, failure rate is a lot higher there, be ready to pull all-nighters from beginning to end if you want to succeed in these programs.

Getting a Consulting position at the Big firms is competitive, but less than let's say, Investment Banking.

actually i would think a JD/MBA would have a much easier time than just a JD. the only consulting firm that actively recruits JDs is Mickensy. But with a JD/MBA you can take advantage of the MBA on campus recruiting where all the big consulting players come.

[Renzo]

Are JD/MBA's more likely to get a consulting job than JD only? How easy is it to get one of these jobs?

Not really, it will all come down to your grades and network, either on JD or JD/MBA.

Personnally, JD/MBAs are useless unless you want a good asset to compete for F500 Business/Law Jobs.
And 3 years JD/MBAs are brutal, failure rate is a lot higher there, be ready to pull all-nighters from beginning to end if you want to succeed in these programs.

Getting a Consulting position at the Big firms is competitive, but less than let's say, Investment Banking.

actually i would think a JD/MBA would have a much easier time than just a JD. the only consulting firm that actively recruits JDs is Mickensy. But with a JD/MBA you can take advantage of the MBA on campus recruiting where all the big consulting players come.

Why on earth get the JD part of the JD/MBA if you want to go in to business/consulting.

[megaTTTron]

Are JD/MBA's more likely to get a consulting job than JD only? How easy is it to get one of these jobs?

Not really, it will all come down to your grades and network, either on JD or JD/MBA.

Personnally, JD/MBAs are useless unless you want a good asset to compete for F500 Business/Law Jobs.
And 3 years JD/MBAs are brutal, failure rate is a lot higher there, be ready to pull all-nighters from beginning to end if you want to succeed in these programs.

Getting a Consulting position at the Big firms is competitive, but less than let's say, Investment Banking.

actually i would think a JD/MBA would have a much easier time than just a JD. the only consulting firm that actively recruits JDs is Mickensy. But with a JD/MBA you can take advantage of the MBA on campus recruiting where all the big consulting players come.

Why on earth get the JD part of the JD/MBA if you want to go in to business/consulting.

Masochism. Love of debt.

[chrisbru]

Are JD/MBA's more likely to get a consulting job than JD only? How easy is it to get one of these jobs?

Not really, it will all come down to your grades and network, either on JD or JD/MBA.

Personnally, JD/MBAs are useless unless you want a good asset to compete for F500 Business/Law Jobs.
And 3 years JD/MBAs are brutal, failure rate is a lot higher there, be ready to pull all-nighters from beginning to end if you want to succeed in these programs.

Getting a Consulting position at the Big firms is competitive, but less than let's say, Investment Banking.

actually i would think a JD/MBA would have a much easier time than just a JD. the only consulting firm that actively recruits JDs is Mickensy. But with a JD/MBA you can take advantage of the MBA on campus recruiting where all the big consulting players come.

Why on earth get the JD part of the JD/MBA if you want to go in to business/consulting.

Because you want to practice law but want something to fall back on if the legal market still sucks in 3.5 years...

[ruski]

all the people i know doing the jd/mba are law students who realize that law sucks and then apply to the mba program during 2L. i have no idea why someone would consciously want to get both a JD and MBA and apply to both programs from the very beginning. no jobs really require both degrees; you either want to do business or practice law.

[Anonymous User]

I'm a H/S/W JD/MBA here to verify that an MBA from a good business school does indeed help you get in the door for consulting. With a good MBA you're guaranteed a chance and likely to get an interview. But once you've gotten that far, you have to do case interviews just like everybody else and your MBA isn't going to get you any farther. It's truly a meritocratic system - doesn't matter if your parents work for these firms, you have to ace the case to get a job.

[megaTTTron]

all the people i know doing the jd/mba are law students who realize that law sucks and then apply to the mba program during 2L. i have no idea why someone would consciously want to get both a JD and MBA and apply to both programs from the very beginning. no jobs really require both degrees; you either want to do business or practice law.

I could not imagine, even ITE, thinking to myself, as a 2L, "Hmm. I think I'll take the GMAT and sign up for 2 more years of school and 100k+ more debt."

[Seally]

Are JD/MBA's more likely to get a consulting job than JD only? How easy is it to get one of these jobs?

Not really, it will all come down to your grades and network, either on JD or JD/MBA.

Personnally, JD/MBAs are useless unless you want a good asset to compete for F500 Business/Law Jobs.
And 3 years JD/MBAs are brutal, failure rate is a lot higher there, be ready to pull all-nighters from beginning to end if you want to succeed in these programs.

Getting a Consulting position at the Big firms is competitive, but less than let's say, Investment Banking.

actually i would think a JD/MBA would have a much easier time than just a JD. the only consulting firm that actively recruits JDs is Mickensy. But with a JD/MBA you can take advantage of the MBA on campus recruiting where all the big consulting players come.

Most JD/MBAs are fucking hard, not everyone gets in, and out of the lucky ones who enter it, only a few finish with above average grades.

Just because you have a JD/MBA doesn't mean it's giving you an easy ride, Consulting firms who recruit at Top Law Schools look for top students, not just JD/MBA holders who got so-so grades.
I do not suggest it UNLESS you can handle having no vacations for the next 2-3 years of your life and you have an efficient way to pay for the MBA without selling your soul another time.

That said, if you found it challenging to get a GPA about 3.8 in UG already, forget the JD/MBA, epic waste of time and money.

I know many who succeeded with a JD/MBA but also many who failed to even get a Legal position anywhere, think twice before you try to do that.

[XxSpyKEx]

Most JD/MBAs are fucking hard, not everyone gets in, and out of the lucky ones who enter it, only a few finish with above average grades.

That said, if you found it challenging to get a GPA about 3.8 in UG already, forget the JD/MBA, epic waste of time and money.

Do you have any evidence that McKinsey even cares about grades? I know most business employers don't, and I've heard consulting firms don't either.

[Seally]

Most JD/MBAs are fucking hard, not everyone gets in, and out of the lucky ones who enter it, only a few finish with above average grades.

That said, if you found it challenging to get a GPA about 3.8 in UG already, forget the JD/MBA, epic waste of time and money.

Do you have any evidence that McKinsey even cares about grades? I know most business employers don't, and I've heard consulting firms don't either.

Since most Business positions will look at Corporate Law courses for selection of Lawyers, yes, you need good grades and a good record/background to get granted an interview.

After you get that interview, it will all come down to two things:

-Prove the interviewers that you can count.
-Hope that they like you(It will make or break you.)

In Consulting, if you are one of the few that makes it in the upper levels, you will have Case interviews, like it has been said above, if you don't rock the case, you don't get a job.

This is why preparation is key for Consulting or Banking, you'll most likely have to learn by yourself what you didn't learn in school, be ready to compete against people who already master these concepts, but a Law Degree will have developped many more skills that B-Schoolers won't have during selection process, do not deviate from them.

Coming from a Corporate Law background, nobody will doubt that you have the stamina to do either Banking or Management Consulting, forget Employment, Litigation, Entertainment, Intellectual Property, you have to be the closest as possible to Business if you want a Business job, which means Corporate Law, anything else is bullshit since you are competing with many, many, many other qualified candidates.

So basically, after you get an interview, your grades won't really help you.


Do not forget that employers WILL have access to your Law School records even 5 years after you passed the Bar, grades will open or close many doors, no matter what you plan to pursue.

[XxSpyKEx]

yes, you need good grades

Proof? ... I don't necessarily doubt this, but I've heard the exact opposite (that grades don't matter), which would be in line with just about every other corporate/business recruiter.

[glewz]

Here are the answers to a bunch of your questions. They should also straighten out some inaccuracies:


Grades: Grades Do matter, just not as much for law students. Straight out of undergrad, you will pretty much get auto-dinged if you don't meet a certain grade minimum. Of course you're not gonna find stats to validate this, but I'm sure you can find info on their career websites talking about top-notch academic achievement. Don't believe that grades matter? Well...it's true. Try & recruit with terrible grades.
McK, BCG and Bain only actively recruit out of the top law schools - graduates from lower tiers need to seek them through career websites. But if your school also has a great B-school, then it's likely that they also advertise to the law school (if it's good).

JD/MBA:
- Consulting firms value a JD/MBA more than a JD.
- There are plenty of jobs that could use both degrees (e.g. venture capital, startups, policy).
- GMAT is not required since you've taken the LSAT (for nearly all top bus. schools)

Banking vs. Consulting: Top consulting (McK, BCG, Bain) is equally difficult to get compared to top investment banking (Goldman, Blackstone, Morgan Stanley). Prestige-wise, it depends on who you talk to. Most people in consulting outright did not want to do banking, but the same cannot be said for bankers. This is because the consulting firms that people really really want to get are McK, BCG, and Bain; in banking, you are pretty set if you get any of the top 10/15. Top consulting is easier to get than private equity/venture capital.

Human Capital vs. Strategy/Mngment Consulting: The consulting work discussed on this forum is minimally about hiring/firing. Human Capital Consulting is a specific division within general consulting that handles this. Strategy & Management Consulting (which is what you all are talking about/interested in) deals with overall operations strategy - this is why consulting firms want JD, MPP, MS Econ, etc. in addition to MBA.

HLS & McK From HLS, there are < 10/year getting McK.

Screening/Interviews
Differences among Top 3: Bain interviews a ton of people, and offers more spots than BCG or McK (but still very few). BCG interview if you have highly competitive scores. McK interview - much harder to get; for law students, they often screen you first with a pen & paper test.
Emphasis on Case: All three put a huge emphasis on case interview. But for these firms, everyone who interviews you needs to "like" you. This is extremely subjective, and if a single one of your interviewers "dislike" you, then it's over. To that end, a surprising amount of emphasis is placed on personality - I've had friends who didn't even need to do a case in final rounds b/c they had performed adequately early on.

Traveling & Frequent Flier Miles:
Heard of cases with $100k in frequent flier miles...and $100k in frequent flier miles is pretty Awesome High quality food, transportation, hotel covered
You travel a lot if you stick with the job. M-Th, and F back at the office. Most people exit out of the firm in 3 years to pursue management/strategy positions in industry. Depending on the industry, it's not uncommon to exit at a $250k+ salary

Compensation:
As a law school graduate, you earn $120 - $140k. You don't start as an analyst ($80k tops)

[megaTTTron]

Here are the answers to a bunch of your questions. They should also straighten out some inaccuracies:


Grades: Grades Do matter, just not as much for law students. Straight out of undergrad, you will pretty much get auto-dinged if you don't meet a certain grade minimum. Of course you're not gonna find stats to validate this, but I'm sure you can find info on their career websites talking about top-notch academic achievement. Don't believe that grades matter? Well...it's true. Try & recruit with terrible grades.
McK, BCG and Bain only actively recruit out of the top law schools - graduates from lower tiers need to seek them through career websites. But if your school also has a great B-school, then it's likely that they also advertise to the law school (if it's good).

JD/MBA:
- Consulting firms value a JD/MBA more than a JD.
- There are plenty of jobs that could use both degrees (e.g. venture capital, startups, policy).
- GMAT is not required since you've taken the LSAT (for nearly all top bus. schools)

Banking vs. Consulting: Top consulting (McK, BCG, Bain) is equally difficult to get compared to top investment banking (Goldman, Blackstone, Morgan Stanley). Prestige-wise, it depends on who you talk to. Most people in consulting outright did not want to do banking, but the same cannot be said for bankers. This is because the consulting firms that people really really want to get are McK, BCG, and Bain; in banking, you are pretty set if you get any of the top 10/15. Top consulting is easier to get than private equity/venture capital.

Human Capital vs. Strategy/Mngment Consulting: The consulting work discussed on this forum is minimally about hiring/firing. Human Capital Consulting is a specific division within general consulting that handles this. Strategy & Management Consulting (which is what you all are talking about/interested in) deals with overall operations strategy - this is why consulting firms want JD, MPP, MS Econ, etc. in addition to MBA.

HLS & McK From HLS, there are < 10/year getting McK.

Screening/Interviews
Differences among Top 3: Bain interviews a ton of people, and offers more spots than BCG or McK (but still very few). BCG interview if you have highly competitive scores. McK interview - much harder to get; for law students, they often screen you first with a pen & paper test.
Emphasis on Case: All three put a huge emphasis on case interview. But for these firms, everyone who interviews you needs to "like" you. This is extremely subjective, and if a single one of your interviewers "dislike" you, then it's over. To that end, a surprising amount of emphasis is placed on personality - I've had friends who didn't even need to do a case in final rounds b/c they had performed adequately early on.

Traveling & Frequent Flier Miles:
Heard of cases with $100k in frequent flier miles...and $100k in frequent flier miles is pretty Awesome High quality food, transportation, hotel covered
You travel a lot if you stick with the job. M-Th, and F back at the office. Most people exit out of the firm in 3 years to pursue management/strategy positions in industry. Depending on the industry, it's not uncommon to exit at a $250k+ salary

Compensation:
As a law school graduate, you earn $120 - $140k. You don't start as an analyst ($80k tops)

Awesome info. Thank you.

[imchuckbass58]

Most JD/MBAs are fucking hard, not everyone gets in, and out of the lucky ones who enter it, only a few finish with above average grades.

Just because you have a JD/MBA doesn't mean it's giving you an easy ride, Consulting firms who recruit at Top Law Schools look for top students, not just JD/MBA holders who got so-so grades.
I do not suggest it UNLESS you can handle having no vacations for the next 2-3 years of your life and you have an efficient way to pay for the MBA without selling your soul another time.

That said, if you found it challenging to get a GPA about 3.8 in UG already, forget the JD/MBA, epic waste of time and money.

I know many who succeeded with a JD/MBA but also many who failed to even get a Legal position anywhere, think twice before you try to do that.

As a JD/MBA and a former consultant who was involved in recruiting for my older firm, I can say this is pretty inaccurate on almost every level. Here's a sampling:
-A JD/MBA is not "fucking hard," or at least not more so than law school or business school independently. The courseload is no heavier per semester, and frankly, I'm finding it easier because business school classes generally require less work than law school classes. The idea that you won't take vacations is laughable.
-Pretty much every JD/MBA I know finished with grades well above average at both the business school and the law school. A sizable portion make dean's list (~top 10% at the business school) and many also get honors at the law school.
-Many consulting firms, especially McKinsey, actively look for JD/MBAs above and beyond normal law or business students. The JD/MBAs I know who applied to McKinsey had about a 33% success rate, versus closer to 10%-15% for straight MBAs or <5% for law students.
-Consulting firms do not care about grades, at least at the initial cut. McKinsey interviews virtually everyone who applies from top schools, and after that, it's all about how you perform in the interviews.
-I do not know a single JD/MBA who failed to get either a market-paying legal job, or an investment banking/consulting job at my school.

I agree that this may not hold true for low-ranked schools. And I don't mean to imply that a JD/MBA is necessarily a good investment (it may be, or it may be a total waste depending on your interests/goals). But pretty much everything you said is totally wrong as applied to top programs.

[imchuckbass58]

Compensation:
As a law school graduate, you earn $120 - $140k. You don't start as an analyst ($80k tops)

I'd add that $120k is base - your comp can be marginally or considerably higher depending on bonus.

Varies by firm, but total comp (including bonus) was well above $160k (approaching 200k) during the boom. I'm not familiar with bonuses this year, but I imagine it's slightly less than $160k all in (maybe 140 or 150).

[Seally]

Most JD/MBAs are fucking hard, not everyone gets in, and out of the lucky ones who enter it, only a few finish with above average grades.

Just because you have a JD/MBA doesn't mean it's giving you an easy ride, Consulting firms who recruit at Top Law Schools look for top students, not just JD/MBA holders who got so-so grades.
I do not suggest it UNLESS you can handle having no vacations for the next 2-3 years of your life and you have an efficient way to pay for the MBA without selling your soul another time.

That said, if you found it challenging to get a GPA about 3.8 in UG already, forget the JD/MBA, epic waste of time and money.

I know many who succeeded with a JD/MBA but also many who failed to even get a Legal position anywhere, think twice before you try to do that.

As a JD/MBA and a former consultant who was involved in recruiting for my older firm, I can say this is pretty inaccurate on almost every level. Here's a sampling:
-A JD/MBA is not "fucking hard," or at least not more so than law school or business school independently. The courseload is no heavier per semester, and frankly, I'm finding it easier because business school classes generally require less work than law school classes. The idea that you won't take vacations is laughable.
-Pretty much every JD/MBA I know finished with grades well above average at both the business school and the law school. A sizable portion make dean's list (~top 10% at the business school) and many also get honors at the law school.
-Many consulting firms, especially McKinsey, actively look for JD/MBAs above and beyond normal law or business students. The JD/MBAs I know who applied to McKinsey had about a 33% success rate, versus closer to 10%-15% for straight MBAs or <5% for law students.
-Consulting firms do not care about grades, at least at the initial cut. McKinsey interviews virtually everyone who applies from top schools, and after that, it's all about how you perform in the interviews.
-I do not know a single JD/MBA who failed to get either a market-paying legal job, or an investment banking/consulting job at my school.

I agree that this may not hold true for low-ranked schools. And I don't mean to imply that a JD/MBA is necessarily a good investment (it may be, or it may be a total waste depending on your interests/goals). But pretty much everything you said is totally wrong as applied to top programs.

I was talking about those 3 years JD/MBAs, if you don't find them "fucking hard" then you must have some mental illness or you're already used at working 90 hours/week so you can't see the trick in it.

If it's a 4-5 years program, then sure, it worths the money, since you won't take any additionnal classes on first year/second year.

[glewz]

Compensation:
As a law school graduate, you earn $120 - $140k. You don't start as an analyst ($80k tops)

I'd add that $120k is base - your comp can be marginally or considerably higher depending on bonus.

Varies by firm, but total comp (including bonus) was well above $160k (approaching 200k) during the boom. I'm not familiar with bonuses this year, but I imagine it's slightly less than $160k all in (maybe 140 or 150).

This is absolutely true - sorry I was just referring to base salary starting right out of law school; I should have been more clear.

[James Bond]

Compensation:
As a law school graduate, you earn $120 - $140k. You don't start as an analyst ($80k tops)

I'd add that $120k is base - your comp can be marginally or considerably higher depending on bonus.

Varies by firm, but total comp (including bonus) was well above $160k (approaching 200k) during the boom. I'm not familiar with bonuses this year, but I imagine it's slightly less than $160k all in (maybe 140 or 150).

This is absolutely true - sorry I was just referring to base salary starting right out of law school; I should have been more clear.

ALL OF THIS ignores the fact that there are way more cost effective ways to go from 80k - 120k in a consulting firm. Starting at 80k, working a year or two, then getting promoted nets you 160K. Going to law school for 3 years nets you what...-250k?

If you already know you want consulting, there are MANY better options than a JD. Working in-industry, getting an MBA (while working, even), or if you have the pedigree, getting right into it on the ground level.

[glewz]

Compensation:
As a law school graduate, you earn $120 - $140k. You don't start as an analyst ($80k tops)

I'd add that $120k is base - your comp can be marginally or considerably higher depending on bonus.

Varies by firm, but total comp (including bonus) was well above $160k (approaching 200k) during the boom. I'm not familiar with bonuses this year, but I imagine it's slightly less than $160k all in (maybe 140 or 150).

This is absolutely true - sorry I was just referring to base salary starting right out of law school; I should have been more clear.

ALL OF THIS ignores the fact that there are way more cost effective ways to go from 80k - 120k in a consulting firm. Starting at 80k, working a year or two, then getting promoted nets you 160K. Going to law school for 3 years nets you what...-250k?

If you already know you want consulting, there are MANY better options than a JD. Working in-industry, getting an MBA (while working, even), or if you have the pedigree, getting right into it on the ground level.

btw, Most 2nd/3rd year analysts do not get promoted to associates. This is why people @ top consulting firms Need to go back to school and also why people talk about "exiting" so much.

Also, salary + bonus is $150k+++

[motiontodismiss]

Compensation:
As a law school graduate, you earn $120 - $140k. You don't start as an analyst ($80k tops)

I'd add that $120k is base - your comp can be marginally or considerably higher depending on bonus.

Varies by firm, but total comp (including bonus) was well above $160k (approaching 200k) during the boom. I'm not familiar with bonuses this year, but I imagine it's slightly less than $160k all in (maybe 140 or 150).

I heard Accenture is offering $140k+$40k signing this year. McKinsey's offering somewhere in the $140k range total.

[glewz]

So...no perspectives on the grades question posted above?

copy of transcript

[HITeacher2]

Data for consultants for their first year out of the MBA program. This is the same compensation package JDs who apply to consulting would earn.

For Bain…

Signing Bonus: $20,000
Base: $125,000
Performance Bonus: up to $39,000 for your first year
- – - – -
Total compensation: $184,000

Retirement: 401(k) contribution up to $7,400

According to my Bain post-MBA source:

Deloitte’s offers were very similar, except they had MUCH higher signing bonuses ($40k + $10k for signing early + pay for 2nd year of b-school). This was for folks who interned there, so the latter two parts of the bonus might not apply otherwise.

That means Deloitte covered your second year of bschool tuition for signing – wow!

For BCG…

Signing Bonus: $20,000
Base: $135,000
Performance Bonus: up to $40,000 for your first year
Relocation: $2-5,000 depending on distance
- – - – -
Total compensation: at least $197,000

Retirement: up to $9,000/5% of bonus+salary is put into retirement fund, no contributions required

Our source also noted that project leaders at BCG (approximately 2-3 years out of bschool) were paid $185,000 base.

For McKinsey…

Signing Bonus: $20,000
Base: $125,000
Performance Bonus: up to $40,000 for your first year
Relocation: $2-5,000 depending on distance
- – - – -
Total compensation: at least $187,000

Retirement: up to $19,000/12% of bonus+salary is put into retirement fund, no contributions required

Please note that BCG and McKinsey post-grad/MBA salaries are almost identical, despite McKinsey having a $10K lower base due to a $10K higher retirement contribution.

Note: Source is http://managementconsulted.com/

[Blindmelon]

Data for consultants for their first year out of the MBA program. This is the same compensation package JDs who apply to consulting would earn.

For Bain…

Signing Bonus: $20,000
Base: $125,000
Performance Bonus: up to $39,000 for your first year
- – - – -
Total compensation: $184,000

Retirement: 401(k) contribution up to $7,400

According to my Bain post-MBA source:

Deloitte’s offers were very similar, except they had MUCH higher signing bonuses ($40k + $10k for signing early + pay for 2nd year of b-school). This was for folks who interned there, so the latter two parts of the bonus might not apply otherwise.

That means Deloitte covered your second year of bschool tuition for signing – wow!

For BCG…

Signing Bonus: $20,000
Base: $135,000
Performance Bonus: up to $40,000 for your first year
Relocation: $2-5,000 depending on distance
- – - – -
Total compensation: at least $197,000

Retirement: up to $9,000/5% of bonus+salary is put into retirement fund, no contributions required

Our source also noted that project leaders at BCG (approximately 2-3 years out of bschool) were paid $185,000 base.

For McKinsey…

Signing Bonus: $20,000
Base: $125,000
Performance Bonus: up to $40,000 for your first year
Relocation: $2-5,000 depending on distance
- – - – -
Total compensation: at least $187,000

Retirement: up to $19,000/12% of bonus+salary is put into retirement fund, no contributions required

Please note that BCG and McKinsey post-grad/MBA salaries are almost identical, despite McKinsey having a $10K lower base due to a $10K higher retirement contribution.

Note: Source is http://managementconsulted.com/

This seems wrong. Post-mba is typically people with 5+ years of work experience. Post-JD is no years - doubtful they get paid the same starting out.

[imchuckbass58]

This seems wrong. Post-mba is typically people with 5+ years of work experience. Post-JD is no years - doubtful they get paid the same starting out.

They do. All associates get paid the same (base) and all post-JDs and post-MBAs start as associates.