Milbank/Davis Polk/Cravath Scale: NYC to 215-415k Forum

[Anonymous User]

It’s literally just partner trolling. At my V5 the partners are vocal that associate pay is outrageous and actively joke about it. They’re gonna match but they’re just sending a message with the delay

[Anonymous User]

They are delaying to drag this whole matching process out to last more than 6 months to avoid Milbank announcing another raise too soon. If the process is done too early, come June/July this year Milbank announces another match, they'd be shooting themselves in the foot for having done something detrimental and was in their control.

[Anonymous User]

It’s literally just partner trolling. At my V5 the partners are vocal that associate pay is outrageous and actively joke about it. They’re gonna match but they’re just sending a message with the delay

Lol at partners making 2M + (which is literally what business people in the C Suite make, partners actually make as much or more than a lot of their clients) being pissed about the tiny crumbs they toss to associates.

[Anonymous User]

It’s literally just partner trolling. At my V5 the partners are vocal that associate pay is outrageous and actively joke about it. They’re gonna match but they’re just sending a message with the delay

Lol at partners making 2M + (which is literally what business people in the C Suite make, partners actually make as much or more than a lot of their clients) being pissed about the tiny crumbs they toss to associates.

It’s big law - 95% of people with the mentality to make partner are borderline insane. Ofc they’re gonna protect what they see as their birthright and troll

[Anonymous User]

I mean I just don’t understand what’s taking DPW so long, tho. It’s either (i) match with/without special bonus or (ii) re-raise with/without special bonus. I am starting to think they are regretting their decision to be a comp leader and just waiting for other v10 to match Milbank so they can just match too.

If they regret and just want to match they could just...match. The rest of the V10 aren't matching yet bc they're waiting for DPW.

That is what I thought initially, but maybe they think if they match after another v10 has matched, they don’t look as bad.

[Anonymous User]

It’s literally just partner trolling. At my V5 the partners are vocal that associate pay is outrageous and actively joke about it. They’re gonna match but they’re just sending a message with the delay

Lol at partners making 2M + (which is literally what business people in the C Suite make, partners actually make as much or more than a lot of their clients) being pissed about the tiny crumbs they toss to associates.

It’s big law - 95% of people with the mentality to make partner are borderline insane. Ofc they’re gonna protect what they see as their birthright and troll

Borderline insane = sitting around bemoaning associate pay? Lol.

Basic rule on TLS. Anytime someone starts a post with "At my V5, partners ____" -- disregard.

[Anonymous User]

There has to also be some considerations about how associate salaries will be covered in the news cycle and when 2021 profitability numbers come out.

It’s not clear if DPW should announce bonuses or a raise separate from or in connection with posting like $8 million in PPP for 2021.

There’s mounting concerns about how clients perceive these levels of profitability, partner/associate pay and rates. This is always a favored excuse of partners, but things do seem more delicate up in this altitude—all the numbers are getting insane to outsiders.

[Anonymous User]

There has to also be some considerations about how associate salaries will be covered in the news cycle and when 2021 profitability numbers come out.

It’s not clear if DPW should announce bonuses or a raise separate from or in connection with posting like $8 million in PPP for 2021.

There’s mounting concerns about how clients perceive these levels of profitability, partner/associate pay and rates. This is always a favored excuse of partners, but things do seem more delicate up in this altitude—all the numbers are getting insane to outsiders.

Seems like the perfect time/justification to do it, the banks aren't being shy about it.

Most clients don't care; some of the favored ones that actually gripe about it can negotiate special rates/flat fees anyhow. But compared to transaction sizes, the legal costs are a drop in the bucket.

If not, they can just get their M&A deals done with Westerman or wherever if so concerned about rates.

[Anonymous User]

Some firm no one has ever heard of matched and the V10 hasn't.

That’s a good thing. We don’t want a match. The floor for V10 firms is the Milbank rate. They won’t let random V100s pay more. There’s clearly an open question about a further raise, and it won’t matter if it takes 3 weeks or 3 months to resolve it if it’s more money for us all.

Well actually the floor for v10 firms is 205k right now.

Exactly. People are speaking as if something has already happened simply because they believe it will happen in the future.

I agree it's likely everyone will match wherever this settles. But it ain't settled yet, and there's no sign it's settling imminently. So, right now, if your firm hasn't matched, you're making less than associates at firms that have matched. At least for me, pay day is Tuesday. Lots of people can count on being paid less money Tuesday than associates at other firms. Again.

By the way, it's really not hard to match a re-raise after matching Milbank. At all. It's just not a good argument.

Firms are making money by waiting, even if they back pay. As someone mentioned earlier, the time-value-of-money point isn't that any individual associate is losing lots of money. But in the aggregate, for the firms, the longer this goes on, the more they save by paying later what the market is saying their associates deserve today.

[Anonymous User]

"We're waiting because the wait sends a message" is dumb. Everyone's just going to remember the match or the raise, especially since there's a true-up. Matching sends the message perfectly fine without the weird wait.

"We're waiting because we don't want to be the comp leader anymore" is dumb. If you're not a leader anymore then you follow someone else, in this case Milbank, and you match.

"We're waiting because this is a bad time of year to announce/because if we announce now Milbank might raise again in 6 months" is dumb. If this is the rationale then DPW would be trying to wait literally months before making the move, and the rest of the V10 (not to mention associates with lateral offers) are not going to give them that much time.

"We're just never going to match" is the dumbest of them all. At a minimum, the V20 would have to uniformly reject the new scale for that to work, and that's simply not going to happen.

That really just leaves "We're waiting because we can't make up our minds" or "We're waiting for CSM to blink". Both of those explanations are also pretty dumb, honestly, but I can at least imagine the committee actually thinking this way, unlike the other explanations.

[Anonymous User]

"We're waiting because the wait sends a message" is dumb. Everyone's just going to remember the match or the raise, especially since there's a true-up. Matching sends the message perfectly fine without the weird wait.

"We're waiting because we don't want to be the comp leader anymore" is dumb. If you're not a leader anymore then you follow someone else, in this case Milbank, and you match.

"We're waiting because this is a bad time of year to announce/because if we announce now Milbank might raise again in 6 months" is dumb. If this is the rationale then DPW would be trying to wait literally months before making the move, and the rest of the V10 (not to mention associates with lateral offers) are not going to give them that much time.

"We're just never going to match" is the dumbest of them all. At a minimum, the V20 would have to uniformly reject the new scale for that to work, and that's simply not going to happen.

That really just leaves "We're waiting because we can't make up our minds" or "We're waiting for CSM to blink". Both of those explanations are also pretty dumb, honestly, but I can at least imagine the committee actually thinking this way, unlike the other explanations.

Also, Wilmerhale (V19!) has already matched.

[Anonymous User]

I think DPW and other firms are having indecision about whether to re-raise or do special bonuses. If they don't, then comp this year will be lower in nominal terms than last year, and significantly lower in real terms.

On the other hand, firms might be spooked about a possible recession -- the fact that inflation is so bad might mean imminent federal reserve tightening/market crashing/etc. So firms are probably debating whether to basically cut pay (which is what anything other than a re-raise or special bonuses is) or not.

[Anonymous User]

I think DPW and other firms are having indecision about whether to re-raise or do special bonuses. If they don't, then comp this year will be lower in nominal terms than last year, and significantly lower in real terms.

On the other hand, firms might be spooked about a possible recession -- the fact that inflation is so bad might mean imminent federal reserve tightening/market crashing/etc. So firms are probably debating whether to basically cut pay (which is what anything other than a re-raise or special bonuses is) or not.

This is the first good take. Even with a significant re-raise, nominal comp will still be down a lot from last year without special bonuses again. I think DPW is deciding whether to blow Milbank's increases out of the water with no special bonuses or just match (maybe with like a 5k top up) + special bonuses. Would not be surprised if this doesn't get wrapped up until March.

[Anonymous User]

I think DPW and other firms are having indecision about whether to re-raise or do special bonuses. If they don't, then comp this year will be lower in nominal terms than last year, and significantly lower in real terms.

On the other hand, firms might be spooked about a possible recession -- the fact that inflation is so bad might mean imminent federal reserve tightening/market crashing/etc. So firms are probably debating whether to basically cut pay (which is what anything other than a re-raise or special bonuses is) or not.

This is the first good take. Even with a significant re-raise, nominal comp will still be down a lot from last year without special bonuses again. I think DPW is deciding whether to blow Milbank's increases out of the water with no special bonuses or just match (maybe with like a 5k top up) + special bonuses. Would not be surprised if this doesn't get wrapped up until March.

+1

[Anonymous User]

There has to also be some considerations about how associate salaries will be covered in the news cycle and when 2021 profitability numbers come out.

It’s not clear if DPW should announce bonuses or a raise separate from or in connection with posting like $8 million in PPP for 2021.

There’s mounting concerns about how clients perceive these levels of profitability, partner/associate pay and rates. This is always a favored excuse of partners, but things do seem more delicate up in this altitude—all the numbers are getting insane to outsiders.

Clients literally don't care at all how their law firms divide the bills amongst partners and associates.

[Anonymous User]

Clients don't have any leverage. There is more work than there are attorneys to do it. If rates move up, they will whine and they will pay.

.... except, that's only true of M&A practice. Litigation is (I think?) moving at normal pace and bankruptcy/restructuring are way down. So there is risk that clients for those practices could balk at higher rates and move work downmarket.

I wouldn't be surprised if there are turf wars occuring on the management committees of these large firms. M&A/PE partners know they're bringing in all the bacon and might be demanding more of it for themselves and their associates.

Add in the risk of market downturn, and its easy to imagine heated conversation atop these firms.

[Anonymous User]

It’s literally just partner trolling. At my V5 the partners are vocal that associate pay is outrageous and actively joke about it. They’re gonna match but they’re just sending a message with the delay

But partners also want associates back in the office, which means living near the office. Meanwhile, rents in NYC are out of control. Tax burden is very high, too. A first year netting $10K a month is not insane when you factor in (1) student loan burdens, and (2) a shitty studio costs $3000/month.

I'm considering moving to Harlem in order to eventually own a place one day, but my pay is "outrageous" ... Aight

[Pulsar]

Clients don't have any leverage. There is more work than there are attorneys to do it. If rates move up, they will whine and they will pay.

.... except, that's only true of M&A practice. Litigation is (I think?) moving at normal pace and bankruptcy/restructuring are way down. So there is risk that clients for those practices could balk at higher rates and move work downmarket.

Clients may well move litigation work downmarket, but there are still plenty of matters for which they would be dumb to do so. I know my hourly rate is insane; I don't care. Hiring some crappy firm when many millions is at stake is pennywise and pound foolish -- I've seen enough terrible, lazy, sloppy briefs from still-expensive firms that just cruise to (very expensive) settlement every time to know that paying a little bit more for the odd chance of actually winning something is worth it.

[Anonymous User]

Waiting for DPW is getting old. Time to pack up and go home and accept that the v10 now includes Fried Frank, Goodwin and Wilmer. DLA can be v15 and DPW v16.

[Anonymous User]

2pm eastern now

[Anonymous User]

Where's my money?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=isS5K9nOhd8

[Anonymous User]

A lot of references in here requesting DPW associates to "ask what is going on." Is this a serious request, or are people joking? I'm curious as to what type of relationship these posters have with the partners where they would feel it is appropriate to just willy-nilly discuss compensation with them (absent, perhaps in the context of an annual performance review)?

I'm a senior associate that has worked at a v5 and now at another v50 and have had good relationships with the partners that I worked with at both firms, but would never feel comfortable bringing this up in either context. Maybe this is firm-culture dependent?

The only scenario where I could see this where there is a junior partner who the associate worked with when now-partner was an associate. However, under these facts, I assume the junior partner is not even going to have the insight on firm comp decisions so why bother bringing it up.

[Anonymous User]

It’s literally just partner trolling. At my V5 the partners are vocal that associate pay is outrageous and actively joke about it. They’re gonna match but they’re just sending a message with the delay

But partners also want associates back in the office, which means living near the office. Meanwhile, rents in NYC are out of control. Tax burden is very high, too. A first year netting $10K a month is not insane when you factor in (1) student loan burdens, and (2) a shitty studio costs $3000/month.

I'm considering moving to Harlem in order to eventually own a place one day, but my pay is "outrageous" ... Aight

Obligatory comment about practicing in Texas

[Anonymous User]

It’s literally just partner trolling. At my V5 the partners are vocal that associate pay is outrageous and actively joke about it. They’re gonna match but they’re just sending a message with the delay

But partners also want associates back in the office, which means living near the office. Meanwhile, rents in NYC are out of control. Tax burden is very high, too. A first year netting $10K a month is not insane when you factor in (1) student loan burdens, and (2) a shitty studio costs $3000/month.

I'm considering moving to Harlem in order to eventually own a place one day, but my pay is "outrageous" ... Aight

Obligatory comment about practicing in Texas

No one wants to hear it Yeehaw Man

[Anonymous User]

It’s literally just partner trolling. At my V5 the partners are vocal that associate pay is outrageous and actively joke about it. They’re gonna match but they’re just sending a message with the delay

But partners also want associates back in the office, which means living near the office. Meanwhile, rents in NYC are out of control. Tax burden is very high, too. A first year netting $10K a month is not insane when you factor in (1) student loan burdens, and (2) a shitty studio costs $3000/month.

I'm considering moving to Harlem in order to eventually own a place one day, but my pay is "outrageous" ... Aight

Obligatory comment about practicing in Texas

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