2021 End of Year Bonuses Forum

[glitched]

It's okay to say no, but you gotta learn to say it in a tactful way. Best way to know how to do that is ask seniors you trust.

[Anonymous User]

Legitimate question: Why don’t people just say no to the unreasonable work requests we’re seeing right now? I’ve seen in people in this thread and others, and have seen first hand at my firm, doing legitimate harm to their well being in the name of the firm. But considering how short staffed everyone is, it’s not like they’re going to fire you if you say no, right? I guess it could hurt partnership chances, but it kinda seems like people won’t make it that long anyway at this pace.

Just curious.

Do you work at one of these firms? There are strong sources of pressure not to say no, some of which are less servile than you might think (e.g., the other associates in your group are also slammed so you are effectively making their lives worse by saying no). And there is no shortage of the servile tendency either. It certainly doesn’t always feel like an option to say no, and for many people the mere fact that it would ruffle feathers is enough to prevent them from doing it. To say nothing of the fact that when the client calls me directly with another project because I am their point person at the firm, I need to be near-breakdown in order to ask for help, because bringing someone else up to speed would take a lot of time too and many associates value being the point person for a client in that way as advantageous to their careers. Some have also also an insane desire to prove to themselves and others that they are capable of doing this much work without breaking down. If your response to all of that is “why?” then I think your question is a broader one, i.e. why people are frequently irrationally afraid.

New first years and second years say no all the time at my v10. Hilarious new development. Then they are offline before everyone else. No one fired them.

As a junior usually on pace for 2500-3000, I turn down new projects whenever I'm already billing 50/week or 200/month (or if I'm slow, but I know my current deals will explode in the same timeframe as the new one), unless it would align with a projected closing/downturn in an existing deal. Not only for my sanity, but because it allows me to be a way higher quality and responsive junior for the teams I'm already staffed with. Why stretch myself too thin on your new bullshit when I could just devote myself to being awesome on my current teams? As long as I'm on pace for hours, I could give a fuck and say no to new assignments all the time when I'm already fully staffed.

Within a deal that I'm already staffed on, it's obviously different. I'm committed to that team and will step up for whatever is needed. Multiple 60-70+ weeks? If that's needed, we do it. Gotta stay up to 5am for a closing? Sure thing. BUT there are also some lines to be drawn. If it has been a slow day and there is no hint that new work/feedback might be coming in late night, I'm not checking my email after 10pm. I'm never going to wake up at 4am to check my email "just in case." Things like that.

Edit: I should also mention that this approach has not led to a reduction in people attempting to staff me, and I've never had trouble getting more deals than I could want. The good reputation on the teams that I'm devoted to is way more powerful than being the junior who always says yes. You don't have to be everyone's doormat to be seen as a valuable team member.

[Anonymous User]

DPW announces! ...that you can now buy newly branded Davis Polk items from the Davis Polk store.

[Anonymous User]

While it seems likely that firms game their average billables (from folks on leave, folks in less busy offices/practices, etc.), I think the broad estimates are correct. I'm a 7th year and nearly every year I've billed 1800-2000, which is what the firm says is average, and my friends and colleagues at the firm are generally within that band -- though there are certainly exceptions.

What's really happening is there's a selection bias at play because the only people loudly talking about their billables are the high billers, either because they desperately need to get it off their chest and complain about it, or because they're strivers who want everyone to know about it. Conversely, people underbilling generally don't want to tell everyone.

I do think this year however billables are up, particularly among M&A and capital markets practices. This year I'm on track for 2500 hours, and each marginal hour I bill is increasingly more burdensome because it means one further hour I'm not sleeping or spending time with my family, and all those marginal hours come at nights or weekends. That, along with inflation, is the main reason I was hoping to see higher bonuses -- for our practice at least, it's been a tough year, and I would hope the partners can at least recognize the holidays we've worked through, family dinners we've missed, weekend plans cancelled, etc.

[Anonymous User]

Can we punt the career advice to a separate thread and keep this one on topic, please?

[Anonymous User]

Edit: I should also mention that this approach has not led to a reduction in people attempting to staff me, and I've never had trouble getting more deals than I could want. The good reputation on the teams that I'm devoted to is way more powerful than being the junior who always says yes. You don't have to be everyone's doormat to be seen as a valuable team member.

+1. In fact, building a reputation as a hardworking and in-demand associate (not just a doormat) is the best way to set yourself up to say no. I had a hard time saying no my first 2-3 years, but after billing multiple 2500+ years (one over 3k) with good reviews, I started saying no a lot more. I'm now at the point where partners come to me assuming I'm too busy to take on something new. They practically say no for me and are pleasantly surprised when I say yes. Point is, saying no a lot when you're busy but doing well shows partners you're in high demand, which in turn makes it easier to say no. This comes in handy when I want to coast for a bit (e.g., after trial, EOY, etc.).

[Anonymous User]

Oh, and to stay on topic, DPW will announce a moderate increase to the scale and special spring bonuses tomorrow afternoon. Enjoy!

What time this afternoon specifically?

[Anonymous User]

Oh, and to stay on topic, DPW will announce a moderate increase to the scale and special spring bonuses tomorrow afternoon. Enjoy!

What time this afternoon specifically?

I'm shocked that this seemingly confident assertion of fact isn't gathering more attention here.

[topherdane]

Oh, and to stay on topic, DPW will announce a moderate increase to the scale and special spring bonuses tomorrow afternoon. Enjoy!

What time this afternoon specifically?

I'm shocked that this seemingly confident assertion of fact isn't gathering more attention here.

Because he said something similar two weeks ago that was dead wrong.

[Definitely Not North]

Mayer Brown match. https://abovethelaw.com/2021/12/mayer-brown-bonus/

The fact that ATL beat us to it and that the (off marketly high, 2200 iirc) hours threshold is seemingly very purposefully scrolled just out of view, I think the firm itself obviously fed it to them

[Anonymous User]

Other firms are starting to match CravaTTTh now. The collective lot of DPW/STB/Milbank need to get off their asses, please, and move. It's gone from a curiosity to some sort of passive aggressive scheduling thing ....

[Anonymous User]

Dear ATL, no we do not want all the firms to match Cravath. The Cravath scale is garbage, much like your site. Please make yourself somewhat useful and write an article stating partners should not be selfish and should pay us all more. Thanks.

[Anonymous User]

As another anecdote about billables, I've been at a V10 for about 10 years now in litigation. In all those years, I've never billed less than 1,950 and never more than 2,200 for purposes of a review year. Maybe that makes me lucky (or good at schedule management). My typical year was about 2,100 as a more junior attorney and has settled closer to 2,000 now that I'm more senior and have a little more control over my pace of work and can delegate somewhat. I try to always hit at least 2,000 hours and have only missed that once (just barely).

I've certainly had periods of time where I was pacing for something insane if you annualized from a month or two, e.g., billing 500-600 hours in two months because of a trial. But I've made up for it on the other end by slowing down my pace and it's always more or less worked out to keep me around that 2,000 plus target.

I don't doubt that there are people who are billing 2,700 hours, especially in transactional practices in the past two years in COVID. But I also don't think they're representative of your typical biglaw attorney even in the V10. I tend to believe that in most practices for most people most of the time the average is about 2,000 per year and I've seen internal statistics to back that up.

But it doesn't make good conversation to be the guy at a (boring law) party mentioning your "solid 2,050 hour billable year"; the people who tend to speak up are the ones who have gone through the gauntlet and just put in 2,600 hours even though there are many more of the former than the latter.

I do think these discussions are important because they help to rebalance expectations from anxious associates, especially more junior ones. Does 2,700 hours per year happen? Yes. Is it normal? No. Should you pity someone who's just gone through a year like that? For sure.

[Anonymous User]

When people say they "billed" a certain amount, what are you counting in that calculation? Do you include just billable work to a client? Do you add pro-bono? What about non-billable but firm related (like CLEs, interviews, etc.)?

[peoplearehungry]

Mayer Brown match. https://abovethelaw.com/2021/12/mayer-brown-bonus/

The fact that ATL beat us to it and that the (off marketly high, 2200 iirc) hours threshold is seemingly very purposefully scrolled just out of view, I think the firm itself obviously fed it to them

2200 to even get a bonus sounds ridiculous and unreasonable.

[Anonymous User]

Dear ATL, no we do not want all the firms to match Cravath. The Cravath scale is garbage, much like your site. Please make yourself somewhat useful and write an article stating partners should not be selfish and should pay us all more. Thanks.

Seriously. These articles are nauseating.

[Anonymous User]

When people say they "billed" a certain amount, what are you counting in that calculation? Do you include just billable work to a client? Do you add pro-bono? What about non-billable but firm related (like CLEs, interviews, etc.)?

I only count client billable work. Everything else sounds like shit you volunteered for/did for fun.

I'll end this year at around 2300.

[Anonymous User]

I know it's been posted on here before, but what's historically been the latest bonuses have been announced?

I know we're in a unique world here because someone (CravaTTTh) has already announced, but realistically based on the number of high profile firms that haven't announced, it's clear that the market doesn't believe this is truly the final scale so we are still waiting on the big announcement and who it's going to come from.

[Anonymous User]

I know it's been posted on here before, but what's historically been the latest bonuses have been announced?

I know we're in a unique world here because someone (CravaTTTh) has already announced, but realistically based on the number of high profile firms that haven't announced, it's clear that the market doesn't believe this is truly the final scale so we are still waiting on the big announcement and who it's going to come from.

We're in territory right now that I think is relatively uncharted. I think the latest first bonus announcement in recent history was 2 Mondays after Thanksgiving, but that doesn't really speak to the question of when DPW will announce following a Cravath raise on the Monday of Thanksgiving week.

[Anonymous User]

I'm done worrying about this. The scale is set at this point. The matches are rolling in and nobody seems eager to go one up. I don't recall a re-raise ever coming two weeks later, or even a week and a half later (perhaps somebody will tell me I'm wrong on this). LAAAAAME.

[12YrsAnAssociate]

One woman gave me a tepid review last year and I'm 100% always too busy to work for her now. A few partners really went to bat for me and I will work all night for them basically any time they ask.

[Anonymous User]

Hogan just matched Cravath.

[Anonymous User]

Hogan just matched Cravath.

Fuck me. There's too much momentum on the CravaTTTh scale at this point. I'm done holding out hope for DPW (or Milbank) to shatter the scale. Those greedy bastards will match.

[Anonymous User]

Hogan just matched Cravath.

Fuck me. There's too much momentum on the CravaTTTh scale at this point. I'm done holding out hope for DPW (or Milbank) to shatter the scale. Those greedy bastards will match.

I wouldn't exactly call Hogan Lovells or Mayer Brown market leaders on much of anything. Think something interesting will still happen.

[Anonymous User]

Does the fact that CSM and the rest didn't announce a retention bonus when the announced their EOY bonus mean that they're not doing one this year?