Summer Associate Class of 2016 Forum

[lavarman84]

How do you guys handle those memos where the law the assigning attorney is looking for just isn't out there? Or is the opposite of the position you are looking for?

If it's not out there, I find the closest analogy or look for rules accepted in that jurisdiction that I can use to try and interpret the research question and predict what a court might do.

If it's the opposite of the position they want, I explain that and then I try to find recommend some possible avenues we can take or arguments we can make on behalf of our client to get around that setback.

I readily recognize that my recommendations probably aren't worth shit as a SA but I feel like making an effort to lawyer looks better than just reporting bad results.

[PeanutsNJam]

how bad does your work product have to be to get no offered? I'm not getting much positive or negative feedback at all.

You turn stuff in and then what?

I go to a partner for feedback and they tell me they haven't gotten to it yet. This is like a week after handing in an assignment. I handed another in and the partner keeps telling me to come see him "tomorrow," but is too busy for me every day so I just keep trying lol.

[pancakes3]

nah, i don't do that. the lawyer will decide what theory they want to pursue if this is a dead end.

if it's completely opposite, I just try to be overly thorough and lay it out by circuit if it's split/minority/disfavored.

if it doesn't exist, I preface it by saying that it's novel and lay out the existing case law on questions that are kind of similar that have been previously ruled on, but not this particular question - again trying to be overly thorough. "doesn't exist" is definitely tougher since you're trying to prove a negative.

[Anonymous User]

how bad does your work product have to be to get no offered? I'm not getting much positive or negative feedback at all.

You turn stuff in and then what?

I go to a partner for feedback and they tell me they haven't gotten to it yet. This is like a week after handing in an assignment. I handed another in and the partner keeps telling me to come see him "tomorrow," but is too busy for me every day so I just keep trying lol.

I'm not a partner but I've been doing this to one of my summer associates for a week. He keeps asking for feedback and I'm just like chill because I'm slammed and don't have time to spend non-billable time giving him feedback. Honestly the best thing this kid can do in my eyes is chill until I find the time. But that's just me.

[El Pollito]

how bad does your work product have to be to get no offered? I'm not getting much positive or negative feedback at all.

You turn stuff in and then what?

I go to a partner for feedback and they tell me they haven't gotten to it yet. This is like a week after handing in an assignment. I handed another in and the partner keeps telling me to come see him "tomorrow," but is too busy for me every day so I just keep trying lol.

i mean if you want honest feedback you can pm it to one of the many associates who post here

but chances are people are busy no one cares your work was fake your work product was unremarkable on the fake work that no one cares about don't do anything super weird and you'll get an offer

[lavarman84]

nah, i don't do that. the lawyer will decide what theory they want to pursue if this is a dead end.

if it's completely opposite, I just try to be overly thorough and lay it out by circuit if it's split/minority/disfavored.

if it doesn't exist, I preface it by saying that it's novel and lay out the existing case law on questions that are kind of similar that have been previously ruled on, but not this particular question - again trying to be overly thorough. "doesn't exist" is definitely tougher since you're trying to prove a negative.

You're training to be a lawyer. It's going to be your job to come up with those sorts of things. In the end, I don't expect any experienced attorney to care. They've most likely thought of everything I did and far more. I feel like making an attempt to think critically and be a lawyer shows more than just parroting case law. I certainly cover my bases when it comes to the case law but I feel like that isn't solely what they're looking for.

Then again, my firm isn't a typical megafirm so things might be different elsewhere.

[Anonymous User]

How do you guys handle those memos where the law the assigning attorney is looking for just isn't out there? Or is the opposite of the position you are looking for?

If (1): be creative, you've probably got a BA to put to use

If (2): say your facts are different than X-We'reFuckedCase, say how different and similar.

[PeanutsNJam]

how bad does your work product have to be to get no offered? I'm not getting much positive or negative feedback at all.

You turn stuff in and then what?

I go to a partner for feedback and they tell me they haven't gotten to it yet. This is like a week after handing in an assignment. I handed another in and the partner keeps telling me to come see him "tomorrow," but is too busy for me every day so I just keep trying lol.

i mean if you want honest feedback you can pm it to one of the many associates who post here

but chances are people are busy no one cares your work was fake your work product was unremarkable on the fake work that no one cares about don't do anything super weird and you'll get an offer

I'm not looking to be branded the star summer I just don't want to have to explain a no-offer at 2L OCI, so if no news is good news then I'm good.

[barkschool]

how bad does your work product have to be to get no offered? I'm not getting much positive or negative feedback at all.

You turn stuff in and then what?

I go to a partner for feedback and they tell me they haven't gotten to it yet. This is like a week after handing in an assignment. I handed another in and the partner keeps telling me to come see him "tomorrow," but is too busy for me every day so I just keep trying lol.

i mean if you want honest feedback you can pm it to one of the many associates who post here

but chances are people are busy no one cares your work was fake your work product was unremarkable on the fake work that no one cares about don't do anything super weird and you'll get an offer

I'm not looking to be branded the star summer I just don't want to have to explain a no-offer at 2L OCI, so if no news is good news then I'm good.

Lol I can't imagine the bar could be any lower than for 1L summers
(I mean this to inspire confidence)

[pancakes3]

You're training to be a lawyer. It's going to be your job to come up with those sorts of things.

just because i don't lay it out in a memo doesn't mean i don't have opinions. i just don't think (1) the attorney wants to hear it, and (2) putting it on paper adds any benefit to me as far as training me to issue-spot.

[Johann]

No news is fine news. Always.

[First Offense]

Are they going to no offer extra people to get to 180K?

I feel like that's a bad idea. Seems like stealth layoffs of upper class-men would be a better idea.
God 180k in a non-NYC market sounds amazing and idk why people would want to be in NYC.

no offering a couple SAs here and there wouldn't raise any huge red flags, just cold offer them

exactly, esp for the non-100% firms

also if you no offer one or 2 SAs people will victim blame instead of firm blame

seems much easier than firing people who know things

You guys make it seem like it's only affecting this incoming class; it's affecting all of them. A typical V100 will have at least 300-400 associates, most likely a lot more. The new pay scale will cost these firms about $7-15million/yr, compared against typical PPP of $1-2million for most V100s. I don't see how trying to shed a prospective first year or two is going to help balance the books all that much.

If firms really cared that much about their class size, I think the better way of handling it is to play chicken with summers and keep mum about any plans to raise salaries. There are bound to be a few who will try their hand at 3LOLCI to snag a firm that adopted the pay scale early, and I can see the 3L hiring market heat up at OCI this year somewhat as a result.

But failing to adjust up the salary scale early enough before 2L OCI will severely impair a major firm's ability to recruit 2Ls at 2L OCI. When there are already a lot of firms that adjusted their scales, why would any 2L from a top school choose a firm that stayed at 16k? Firms always hope to hire the best they can get during 2L OCI season.
Also, one of the reasons why firms are raising the scale is to keep up with the tuition. The firms that do not raise their salary will have tremendous difficulty with recruiting.

Firms don't care much about one off year of 2L recruiting. You're not going to be useful for 4 years minimum from the time you're given that offer.

The stress will come when midlevels start jumping ship. A few 2Ls chosing Latham isn't going to scare them.

[Anonymous User]

Very paranoid about offers. Firm was 100 % last year but they hired way more Summers this year. I don't know how much firms these days care about protecting their offer rate (because recruiting really falls if the offer rate is low) versus protecting the bottom line.

[Anonymous User]

Very paranoid about offers. Firm was 100 % last year but they hired way more Summers this year. I don't know how much firms these days care about protecting their offer rate (because recruiting really falls if the offer rate is low) versus protecting the bottom line.

Kind of the same. Firm actually did 3L OCI to recruit a couple more people last year (although word on the street is they had 2 cold offers), but a larger class this year and $180K make me a little paranoid.

[BigZuck]

Just try to keep in mind that you guys are law students/summer associates/TLSers so you're going to worry about stuff no matter what. If your firm hired a smaller summer class and/or stayed at 160K you'd find a reason to be nervous about that too.

[Johann]

Relax. The offer is being made for a whole year from now. Things aren't bad enough to be freaking out about a year in advance for firm managements.

[Slytherpuff]

Very paranoid about offers. Firm was 100 % last year but they hired way more Summers this year. I don't know how much firms these days care about protecting their offer rate (because recruiting really falls if the offer rate is low) versus protecting the bottom line.

Class size shouldn't be an issue, it probably just means that the firm is trying to grow its associate ranks! I wouldn't worry about this.

[lavarman84]

You're training to be a lawyer. It's going to be your job to come up with those sorts of things.

just because i don't lay it out in a memo doesn't mean i don't have opinions. i just don't think (1) the attorney wants to hear it, and (2) putting it on paper adds any benefit to me as far as training me to issue-spot.

But it's your job to have opinions. Realistically, I doubt the attorneys care at all beyond having some work product to judge your competency off of.

I guess I should ask...what do you put in your memos? Is it strictly an explanation of the law?

If you're not laying out your opinions in your memo, how is anyone going to know that you have opinions?

I do think putting it on paper adds benefit to your training to issue-spotting because of feedback.

[pancakes3]

But it's your job to have opinions.

Eh, not really. Not as a SA, imo anyway. I just try to answer the call of the question and not slap/flash anyone.

Realistically, I doubt the attorneys care at all beyond having some work product to judge your competency off of.

Agree on this part. I assume most research questions are either make-work or at best double-checks of their own work, which makes the "offer my own opinion" part seem like making work for a make-work assignment.

I guess I should ask...what do you put in your memos? Is it strictly an explanation of the law?

Pretty much. I pretend the assignment will actually be used and try to write it in a way that the associate can most easily copy/paste into his/her master document. It's pretty mechanical. Question->Brief Answer/Define where the soft spots and/or contentions of the law are->Legal Authority/Definitions->Agreeable Holdings/Analysis->Disagreeable Holdings/Analysis->Summary.

If you're not laying out your opinions in your memo, how is anyone going to know that you have opinions?

Because opinions are like assholes?

I only bring up alternative/additional theories if I'm helping to write a brief/memo that'll actually make it to court - which has only happened like 3 times ever in all my internships and only if I think it's important (not a kitchen-sink approach). For memos I might ask a question or two when it's being assigned in determining the scope of the question but I don't just toss in alternative/additional theories in text sua sponte.

[lavarman84]

But it's your job to have opinions.

Eh, not really. Not as a SA, imo anyway. I just try to answer the call of the question and not slap/flash anyone.

Realistically, I doubt the attorneys care at all beyond having some work product to judge your competency off of.

Agree on this part. I assume most research questions are either make-work or at best double-checks of their own work, which makes the "offer my own opinion" part seem like making work for a make-work assignment.

I guess I should ask...what do you put in your memos? Is it strictly an explanation of the law?

Pretty much. I pretend the assignment will actually be used and try to write it in a way that the associate can most easily copy/paste into his/her master document. It's pretty mechanical. Question->Brief Answer/Define where the soft spots and/or contentions of the law are->Legal Authority/Definitions->Agreeable Holdings/Analysis->Disagreeable Holdings/Analysis->Summary.

If you're not laying out your opinions in your memo, how is anyone going to know that you have opinions?

Because opinions are like assholes?

I only bring up alternative/additional theories if I'm helping to write a brief/memo that'll actually make it to court - which has only happened like 3 times ever in all my internships and only if I think it's important (not a kitchen-sink approach). For memos I might ask a question or two when it's being assigned in determining the scope of the question but I don't just toss in alternative/additional theories in text sua sponte.

I'm not talking about alternative legal theories as in discussing tortious interference when I was asked to research the law on breach of contract. I'm talking about discussing avenues to get around unfavorable case law. If they asked me to research a breach of contract issue to see how strong the case is against our client and I find that the case law all says our client is fucked, I'm going to opine as to how to try and distinguish the case law and arguments we can make through analogy that might allow us to get around that issue.

Do I believe that I'm offering them something they were incapable of thinking of on their own? No. But the point of training to be a lawyer is actually training to be a lawyer. That means finding an argument for the client.

[pancakes3]

i think it's kind of pointless to try and make favorable arguments when most/all your caselaw cuts the other way. what happens when you go to court making a strained argument and your opponent (or worse yet your judge) just buries you in a mountain of case law that you yourself had already researched? Maybe part of being a lawyer is to know when to hold them and when to fold them? Sometimes your client is just fucked. don't fight the hypo.

[gamerish]

Lol I can't imagine the bar could be any lower than for 1L summers
(I mean this to inspire confidence)

As a 0L summer, I can confirm there is indeed an even lower bar

[lavarman84]

i think it's kind of pointless to try and make favorable arguments when most/all your caselaw cuts the other way. what happens when you go to court making a strained argument and your opponent (or worse yet your judge) just buries you in a mountain of case law that you yourself had already researched? Maybe part of being a lawyer is to know when to hold them and when to fold them? Sometimes your client is just fucked. don't fight the hypo.

That's the job. You find a way to make an argument for your client or you find a new theory that allows you to get around the unfavorable law or you find a way to mitigate the damage. If your client is fucked, the best move you can make is to settle, but that's not always an option.

Frankly, it's why you have to be able to accept the L as a lawyer. Especially on the defense side. The law won't always be on your side. Sometimes, you will lose. But you still have to go down fighting. Otherwise, what is the client paying you for?

[Glasseyes]

i think it's kind of pointless to try and make favorable arguments when most/all your caselaw cuts the other way. what happens when you go to court making a strained argument and your opponent (or worse yet your judge) just buries you in a mountain of case law that you yourself had already researched? Maybe part of being a lawyer is to know when to hold them and when to fold them? Sometimes your client is just fucked. don't fight the hypo.

That's the job. You find a way to make an argument for your client or you find a new theory that allows you to get around the unfavorable law or you find a way to mitigate the damage. If your client is fucked, the best move you can make is to settle, but that's not always an option.

Frankly, it's why you have to be able to accept the L as a lawyer. Especially on the defense side. The law won't always be on your side. Sometimes, you will lose. But you still have to go down fighting. Otherwise, what is the client paying you for?

This seems like a goofy argument for the SA thread, but nah, that's not the entirety of the job. If you're absolutely going to lose because the law is clear, you advise the client accordingly and suggest the best path forward (e.g., settlement). If the client wants to fight anyway, fool that he is, sure, cook up some cute arguments to elicit a chuckle from the judge. But real life is not like a law school exam where you sling bullshit no matter the odds of success, hence the lawyer's role as "trusted counsel." You won't always be in "zealous advocate" mode. For SA purposes, I wouldn't offer losing arguments unless you're asked to.

[PennBull]

Summers, if an associate gives you work, don't turn it in early with the caveat that it is still "very much a draft". Give a finished product by the deadline given. Christ.