Milbank/Davis Polk/Cravath Scale: NYC to 215-415k Forum

[Anonymous User]

I don't understand why Cravath or STB doesn't take the chance to swoop in right now and beat Milbank by $5K-10K. Two weeks ago, I guess they were worried that any action would get one-upped by DPW with another raise. But the past three weeks offer plenty of evidence that DPW's partnership is either bitterly divided over beating Milbank or united in not beating Milbank (i.e., and just trying to cool the salary war). Either way, it seems unlikely that DPW will get its act together to beat a Cravath/STB scale starting at $220K or $225K. Why are these so-called "peer" firms just waiting for freaking DPW??

So long as recruiting is not harmed (which it won't be) and there won't be mass defections, what's the incentive for re-raising or moving swiftly? None of these firms will pay a cost prestige or business wise.

There will likely be mass defections.

If DPW ends up only matching (w/o special bonuses) after 3+ weeks of silent posturing, I am nearly certain that Milbank will announce spring/fall special bonuses early (within a month) in order to solidify itself as the compensation leader.

Wilkie announced special bonuses last year on March 19 and was beaten by DPW on March 22. I could see an early March announcement from Milbank if they perceive DPW and the rest of the market as being unwilling to beat them on comp.

At the end of the day, not sure how much anybody other than maybe Milbank cares about being the compensation leader. They need midlevels. And midlevels are going to (continue to) walk if top firms decide now is the time to shake up the model or otherwise get cute with compensation. Because we've all seen the performance numbers over the last 2 years.

[Anonymous User]

I don't understand why Cravath or STB doesn't take the chance to swoop in right now and beat Milbank by $5K-10K. Two weeks ago, I guess they were worried that any action would get one-upped by DPW with another raise. But the past three weeks offer plenty of evidence that DPW's partnership is either bitterly divided over beating Milbank or united in not beating Milbank (i.e., and just trying to cool the salary war). Either way, it seems unlikely that DPW will get its act together to beat a Cravath/STB scale starting at $220K or $225K. Why are these so-called "peer" firms just waiting for freaking DPW??

So long as recruiting is not harmed (which it won't be) and there won't be mass defections, what's the incentive for re-raising or moving swiftly? None of these firms will pay a cost prestige or business wise.

There will likely be mass defections.

If DPW ends up only matching (w/o special bonuses) after 3+ weeks of silent posturing, I am nearly certain that Milbank will announce spring/fall special bonuses early (within a month) in order to solidify itself as the compensation leader.

Wilkie announced special bonuses last year on March 19 and was beaten by DPW on March 22. I could see an early March announcement from Milbank if they perceive DPW and the rest of the market as being unwilling to beat them on comp.

At the end of the day, not sure how much anybody other than maybe Milbank cares about being the compensation leader. They need midlevels. And midlevels are going to (continue to) walk if top firms decide now is the time to shake up the model or otherwise get cute with compensation. Because we've all seen the performance numbers over the last 2 years.

Oh certainly. But I do think that Milbank seriously cares about being seen as the comp leader.

Milbank seems to believe that being perceived as the comp leader is a means of increasing it's ranking (for example it's massive Vault jump after the raises in 2018), improving the crop of law students it attracts, and improving the crop of midlevel/senior laterals it attracts. Which, in turn, all lead to attracting clients with deeper pockets and charging out associates more.

Just my two cents.

[Anonymous User]

I don't understand why Cravath or STB doesn't take the chance to swoop in right now and beat Milbank by $5K-10K. Two weeks ago, I guess they were worried that any action would get one-upped by DPW with another raise. But the past three weeks offer plenty of evidence that DPW's partnership is either bitterly divided over beating Milbank or united in not beating Milbank (i.e., and just trying to cool the salary war). Either way, it seems unlikely that DPW will get its act together to beat a Cravath/STB scale starting at $220K or $225K. Why are these so-called "peer" firms just waiting for freaking DPW??

So long as recruiting is not harmed (which it won't be) and there won't be mass defections, what's the incentive for re-raising or moving swiftly? None of these firms will pay a cost prestige or business wise.

There will likely be mass defections.

If DPW ends up only matching (w/o special bonuses) after 3+ weeks of silent posturing, I am nearly certain that Milbank will announce spring/fall special bonuses early (within a month) in order to solidify itself as the compensation leader.

Wilkie announced special bonuses last year on March 19 and was beaten by DPW on March 22. I could see an early March announcement from Milbank if they perceive DPW and the rest of the market as being unwilling to beat them on comp.

At the end of the day, not sure how much anybody other than maybe Milbank cares about being the compensation leader. They need midlevels. And midlevels are going to (continue to) walk if top firms decide now is the time to shake up the model or otherwise get cute with compensation. Because we've all seen the performance numbers over the last 2 years.

I don't know where all of come from but I and a lot of my classmates are doing this for the money, to be blunt with you. Milbank's strategy is amazing. If they establish themselves as a firm that's able to pay more and is aggressive with bonuses, I will lateral there. They make millions off my labor and I want as much of that back as I can get; I'm happy to go somewhere else if I can get "more" there than here.

[NoLongerALurker]

If my firm was like “you keep the old salary and we aren’t matching milbank but we will be full remote forever,” that’d be one thing. To be like “no match and also lol see ya at your desk later” is kinda lame tho

[Anonymous User]

A theory for the continued delay: Next payroll date at most firms is on Tuesday (Feb. 15) . It takes a few days to process payroll, so its already too late for other firms to adjust in time even if DPW announces now, but DPW has already adjusted theirs. DPW will announce on Monday and then on the 15th they will be the highest paying firm in the land (until everyone else trues up 2 weeks later). Baller move.

[Anonymous User]

A theory for the continued delay: Next payroll date at most firms is on Tuesday (Feb. 15) . It takes a few days to process payroll, so its already too late for other firms to adjust in time even if DPW announces now, but DPW has already adjusted theirs. DPW will announce on Monday and then on the 15th they will be the highest paying firm in the land (until everyone else trues up 2 weeks later). Baller move.

A cynical theory for the continued delay: The cheap as fuck DPW partnership (or the executive committee thereto) is in the midst of a 3 week brawl about whether to simply match Milbank or increase the raise scale by 5-10k per class year. They're completely oblivious to the bad PR effects of sitting on their hands for 3 weeks. They'll announce when they feel like it once they resolve the dispute; if other firms in the V10/V50 are stupid enough to wait around while an intramural partnership argument is resolved, that's those firms' own stupidity and not DPW's fault. There's no tactical thinking behind this whatsoever (e.g., tying it to a payout date).

[Anonymous User]

A theory for the continued delay: Next payroll date at most firms is on Tuesday (Feb. 15) . It takes a few days to process payroll, so its already too late for other firms to adjust in time even if DPW announces now, but DPW has already adjusted theirs. DPW will announce on Monday and then on the 15th they will be the highest paying firm in the land (until everyone else trues up 2 weeks later). Baller move.

A cynical theory for the continued delay: The cheap as fuck DPW partnership (or the executive committee thereto) is in the midst of a 3 week brawl about whether to simply match Milbank or increase the raise scale by 5-10k per class year. They're completely oblivious to the bad PR effects of sitting on their hands for 3 weeks. They'll announce when they feel like it once they resolve the dispute; if other firms in the V10/V50 are stupid enough to wait around while an intramural partnership argument is resolved, that's those firms' own stupidity and not DPW's fault. There's no tactical thinking behind this whatsoever (e.g., tying it to a payout date).

"bad PR effects" lol you guys act like DPW not raising sufficiently enough is going to result in some kind of catastrophe for them. i want $ just as much as the next person on here. but let's not get delusional.

[Anonymous User]

A theory for the continued delay: Next payroll date at most firms is on Tuesday (Feb. 15) . It takes a few days to process payroll, so its already too late for other firms to adjust in time even if DPW announces now, but DPW has already adjusted theirs. DPW will announce on Monday and then on the 15th they will be the highest paying firm in the land (until everyone else trues up 2 weeks later). Baller move.

A cynical theory for the continued delay: The cheap as fuck DPW partnership (or the executive committee thereto) is in the midst of a 3 week brawl about whether to simply match Milbank or increase the raise scale by 5-10k per class year. They're completely oblivious to the bad PR effects of sitting on their hands for 3 weeks. They'll announce when they feel like it once they resolve the dispute; if other firms in the V10/V50 are stupid enough to wait around while an intramural partnership argument is resolved, that's those firms' own stupidity and not DPW's fault. There's no tactical thinking behind this whatsoever (e.g., tying it to a payout date).

"bad PR effects" lol you guys act like DPW not raising sufficiently enough is going to result in some kind of catastrophe for them. i want $ just as much as the next person on here. but let's not get delusional.

The thing is the legal industry is small. What happens in it gets covered by a handful of trade publications, blogs, websites, but it's not like compensation moves are being covered on the front page of the NYT or CNBC segments. A lot of a firm's reputation comes down to memory, word of mouth, gossip, chatter within and across firms. Are we saying DPW implodes if they don't announce tomorrow? No of course not. Is it plausible that they pull this shit for another week or two and people remember for a while how they dragged ass in 2022 and jammed up the rest of the V50 while people at Wilmer got to make more? Doesn't seem implausible.

[Anonymous User]

Surprised people didn't mock Morgan Lewis for matching but the new amount is only effective starting in April?

[Anonymous User]

A theory for the continued delay: Next payroll date at most firms is on Tuesday (Feb. 15) . It takes a few days to process payroll, so its already too late for other firms to adjust in time even if DPW announces now, but DPW has already adjusted theirs. DPW will announce on Monday and then on the 15th they will be the highest paying firm in the land (until everyone else trues up 2 weeks later). Baller move.

A cynical theory for the continued delay: The cheap as fuck DPW partnership (or the executive committee thereto) is in the midst of a 3 week brawl about whether to simply match Milbank or increase the raise scale by 5-10k per class year. They're completely oblivious to the bad PR effects of sitting on their hands for 3 weeks. They'll announce when they feel like it once they resolve the dispute; if other firms in the V10/V50 are stupid enough to wait around while an intramural partnership argument is resolved, that's those firms' own stupidity and not DPW's fault. There's no tactical thinking behind this whatsoever (e.g., tying it to a payout date).

"bad PR effects" lol you guys act like DPW not raising sufficiently enough is going to result in some kind of catastrophe for them. i want $ just as much as the next person on here. but let's not get delusional.

The thing is the legal industry is small. What happens in it gets covered by a handful of trade publications, blogs, websites, but it's not like compensation moves are being covered on the front page of the NYT or CNBC segments. A lot of a firm's reputation comes down to memory, word of mouth, gossip, chatter within and across firms. Are we saying DPW implodes if they don't announce tomorrow? No of course not. Is it plausible that they pull this shit for another week or two and people remember for a while how they dragged ass in 2022 and jammed up the rest of the V50 while people at Wilmer got to make more? Doesn't seem implausible.

yeah i am familiar with ABL and bloomberg lol. the point is that if DPW comes out and raises an amount that we deem too small or simply ends up matching, at the end of the day the only people bitching about it for longer than five minutes will be us and maybe associates to their friends. as long as the firms eventually match, it's not like the blogs are going to persecute them in a way that sticks. their comp will be their comp. we'll make fun of DPW here and that'll be the end of it.

[Anonymous User]

Surprised people didn't mock Morgan Lewis for matching but the new amount is only effective starting in April?

Because at the end of the day at least they said something unlike 80 other V100 firms

[Anonymous User]

Surprised people didn't mock Morgan Lewis for matching but the new amount is only effective starting in April?

Because at the end of the day at least they said something unlike 80 other V100 firms

I mean we all know that many others are going to follow suit. I guess one might say that they're skeptical of whether the other firms will match and pay retroactively.

Are we thinking any V20 firms are going to refuse to retroactively apply? Or pay starting in April? Doubt it.

[Anonymous User]

"Workin' from home? That's a paddlin'. Billin' less than 2000 hours? That's a paddlin'. Starin' at my Park Avenue Cap-Toe Oxfords? That's a paddlin'. Asking New York's oldest law firm to match the Milbank Scale? Oh, you better believe that's a paddlin'."

- John Lambert Cadwalader

[Anonymous User]

I heard some rumors that LW and KE are not planning to match. I'm not at either firm, but at a competitor firm and our chair said we are not planning to match because they aren't matching.

Hearing the same for STB. It's over. Need to lateral to Milbank ASAP.

[Anonymous User]

Surprised people didn't mock Morgan Lewis for matching but the new amount is only effective starting in April?

Because at the end of the day at least they said something unlike 80 other V100 firms

I mean we all know that many others are going to follow suit. I guess one might say that they're skeptical of whether the other firms will match and pay retroactively.

Are we thinking any V20 firms are going to refuse to retroactively apply? Or pay starting in April? Doubt it.

I think it's the wild west out here now. None of us knows what is going to happen at this point. Milbank announced three weeks ago today and only 20 firms have matched. Matches have never taken this long. It's a very real possibility that not every single firm matches or if they do, they drag their feet and match go forward in like March or April or later.

[bigboybob]

AND... when they do match it won't be retroactive.

[Anonymous User]

I’m no longer in biglaw so I don’t know why I’ve been following this thread so much, but if the market doesn’t follow Milbank, that will be reeeeaaalllllly interesting.

[Anonymous User]

How has taken the V10 so long to figure this out? They don’t need to play this game. If you don’t believe me, go ahead and read the comments section on Legalcheek. The top UK magic circle firms are paying less by class level in the magnitude of $100,000s, and it has no effect at all on their recruitment or retention. People will join or stay because of training, partnership/counsel pay packets (if they are chasing it), and brand name. It also helps the firm to market to clients; nobody wants to pay six figures for green associates. If anybody were to leave because of this, it is unlikely they are the star performers.

[Anonymous User]

I’m no longer in biglaw so I don’t know why I’ve been following this thread so much, but if the market doesn’t follow Milbank, that will be reeeeaaalllllly interesting.

That's a strange way to spell "95% of associates at a non-matching firms will be submitting their resumes to the matching firms", but ok.

[Anonymous User]

People will join or stay because of training, partnership/counsel pay packets (if they are chasing it), and brand name.

LOL. No.

[Anonymous User]

People will join or stay because of training, partnership/counsel pay packets (if they are chasing it), and brand name.

LOL. No.

Too many good firms have already matched for this to happen. People won't pick DLA Piper over DPW for 10-20k. But they very well might pick WilmerHale or Goodwin for that much money.

[Anonymous User]

How has taken the V10 so long to figure this out? They don’t need to play this game. If you don’t believe me, go ahead and read the comments section on Legalcheek. The top UK magic circle firms are paying less by class level in the magnitude of $100,000s, and it has no effect at all on their recruitment or retention. People will join or stay because of training, partnership/counsel pay packets (if they are chasing it), and brand name. It also helps the firm to market to clients; nobody wants to pay six figures for green associates. If anybody were to leave because of this, it is unlikely they are the star performers.

I regularly peruse LegalCheek and RoF and this seems like a massive misrepresentation of the chat there.

People constantly bring up the poaching threat posed by the US firms, and how it affects retention. And people try to justify the lower comp at MC firms by arguing that the hours are much better than US firms. Those people are often mocked for that position, as well.

I'm honestly baffled that you could conclude that the pay delta is not a noted problem for MC firms based on LC/RoF comments. It gets brought up constantly.

Are you at a MC firm? Because your argument here sounds a lot like the ones that get made fun of on LC/RoF.

[Anonymous User]

People will join or stay because of training, partnership/counsel pay packets (if they are chasing it), and brand name.

LOL. No.

Too many good firms have already matched for this to happen. People won't pick DLA Piper over DPW for 10-20k. But they very well might pick WilmerHale or Goodwin for that much money.

Some might. Just like some star law graduates choose to go into government work or move to smaller markets. It’s going to make no significant difference in the overall scheme of things.

[Anonymous User]

These rumors are a little silly. The partners at my v100 have already acknowledged privately to us that they are matching. It would be unbelievable if higher ranked firms didn’t match.

[Anonymous User]

How has taken the V10 so long to figure this out? They don’t need to play this game. If you don’t believe me, go ahead and read the comments section on Legalcheek. The top UK magic circle firms are paying less by class level in the magnitude of $100,000s, and it has no effect at all on their recruitment or retention. People will join or stay because of training, partnership/counsel pay packets (if they are chasing it), and brand name. It also helps the firm to market to clients; nobody wants to pay six figures for green associates. If anybody were to leave because of this, it is unlikely they are the star performers.

I regularly peruse LegalCheek and RoF and this seems like a massive misrepresentation of the chat there.

People constantly bring up the poaching threat posed by the US firms, and how it affects retention. And people try to justify the lower comp at MC firms by arguing that the hours are much better than US firms. Those people are often mocked for that position, as well.

I'm honestly baffled that you could conclude that the pay delta is not a noted problem for MC firms based on LC/RoF comments. It gets brought up constantly.

Are you at a MC firm? Because your argument here sounds a lot like the ones that get made fun of on LC/RoF.

The partners and their PEP would disagree.