Summer Associates 2014: Thoughts, Anxieties, Experiences... Forum

[PepperJack]

A partner I've worked with often #2'd and just sprinkled his hands under cold water. Literally never touching him again.

I think it's unfair to be judging a co-worker based off of one poop. You don't know the time constraints the pooper was under, nor the characteristics of the poop itself. Maybe a top client waited patiently on the line while the partner requested to run to the restroom for 60 seconds. Maybe it was a small poop that was 100% out in one go. Thus, minimal wiping was needed so the hands were never in such proximity of said poop. Yes, the pooper would love to wash their hands, because who does not like washing their hands? Plus, firms never have the cheap soap that the pooper gets in the train station on their commute from the burbs. Maybe the pooper wanted to wash, but these were dire times, and dire actions were needed. Maybe their kid had an emergency. I would say the same thing about an associate, summer, or secretary. When push comes to shove, everyone at your office will ultimately poop there. But they are all greater than any one poop.

[jbagelboy]

A partner I've worked with often #2'd and just sprinkled his hands under cold water. Literally never touching him again.

I think it's unfair to be judging a co-worker based off of one poop. You don't know the time constraints the pooper was under, nor the characteristics of the poop itself. Maybe a top client waited patiently on the line while the partner requested to run to the restroom for 60 seconds. Maybe it was a small poop that was 100% out in one go. Thus, minimal wiping was needed so the hands were never in such proximity of said poop. Yes, the pooper would love to wash their hands, because who does not like washing their hands? Plus, firms never have the cheap soap that the pooper gets in the train station on their commute from the burbs. Maybe the pooper wanted to wash, but these were dire times, and dire actions were needed. Maybe their kid had an emergency. I would say the same thing about an associate, summer, or secretary. When push comes to shove, everyone at your office will ultimately poop there. But they are all greater than any one poop.

was this really worth typing out, like do you feel good about the time spent on that

[SA2014]

A partner I've worked with often #2'd and just sprinkled his hands under cold water. Literally never touching him again.

I think it's unfair to be judging a co-worker based off of one poop. You don't know the time constraints the pooper was under, nor the characteristics of the poop itself. Maybe a top client waited patiently on the line while the partner requested to run to the restroom for 60 seconds. Maybe it was a small poop that was 100% out in one go. Thus, minimal wiping was needed so the hands were never in such proximity of said poop. Yes, the pooper would love to wash their hands, because who does not like washing their hands? Plus, firms never have the cheap soap that the pooper gets in the train station on their commute from the burbs. Maybe the pooper wanted to wash, but these were dire times, and dire actions were needed. Maybe their kid had an emergency. I would say the same thing about an associate, summer, or secretary. When push comes to shove, everyone at your office will ultimately poop there. But they are all greater than any one poop.

Jeez...that's a whole lotta venting.

[KD35]

A partner I've worked with often #2'd and just sprinkled his hands under cold water. Literally never touching him again.

I think it's unfair to be judging a co-worker based off of one poop. You don't know the time constraints the pooper was under, nor the characteristics of the poop itself. Maybe a top client waited patiently on the line while the partner requested to run to the restroom for 60 seconds. Maybe it was a small poop that was 100% out in one go. Thus, minimal wiping was needed so the hands were never in such proximity of said poop. Yes, the pooper would love to wash their hands, because who does not like washing their hands? Plus, firms never have the cheap soap that the pooper gets in the train station on their commute from the burbs. Maybe the pooper wanted to wash, but these were dire times, and dire actions were needed. Maybe their kid had an emergency. I would say the same thing about an associate, summer, or secretary. When push comes to shove, everyone at your office will ultimately poop there. But they are all greater than any one poop.

You can't bill those extra 30 seconds washing your hands.

[Anonymous User]

The day of reckoning approaches. I'm trying hard not to think about my grades 2L year, which were not good. 2L GPA was 0.03 lower than my median-ish 1L GPA plus I got a C fall semester of 2L. If I get no-offered (or "fire myself" as the lingo is these days) because of grades I'm gonna drop out. If I get offered, I have an awful feeling I'll be the person with the worst grades this firm has ever hired from my school.

[Anonymous User]

The day of reckoning approaches. I'm trying hard not to think about my grades 2L year, which were not good. 2L GPA was 0.03 lower than my median-ish 1L GPA plus I got a C fall semester of 2L. If I get no-offered (or "fire myself" as the lingo is these days) because of grades I'm gonna drop out. If I get offered, I have an awful feeling I'll be the person with the worst grades this firm has ever hired from my school.

.03 lower for the year than your 1L gpa? You let yourself go from 3.240 to a 3.225? Sounds like you're toast. Most firms would rather have a 3.240 with mediocre work product than a 3.225 money maker.

[SA2014]

The day of reckoning approaches. I'm trying hard not to think about my grades 2L year, which were not good. 2L GPA was 0.03 lower than my median-ish 1L GPA plus I got a C fall semester of 2L.

.03 lower for the year than your 1L gpa? You let yourself go from 3.240 to a 3.225? Sounds like you're toast. Most firms would rather have a 3.240 with mediocre work product than a 3.225 money maker.

If they didn't bring up your disastrous GPA drop during your mid-term review, I doubt that they'd use it as a basis to no-offer/cold-offer you..... it would have to be something more substantive, like your performance or personality.

[Neal Patrick Harris]

A partner I've worked with often #2'd and just sprinkled his hands under cold water. Literally never touching him again.

I think it's unfair to be judging a co-worker based off of one poop. You don't know the time constraints the pooper was under, nor the characteristics of the poop itself. Maybe a top client waited patiently on the line while the partner requested to run to the restroom for 60 seconds. Maybe it was a small poop that was 100% out in one go. Thus, minimal wiping was needed so the hands were never in such proximity of said poop. Yes, the pooper would love to wash their hands, because who does not like washing their hands? Plus, firms never have the cheap soap that the pooper gets in the train station on their commute from the burbs. Maybe the pooper wanted to wash, but these were dire times, and dire actions were needed. Maybe their kid had an emergency. I would say the same thing about an associate, summer, or secretary. When push comes to shove, everyone at your office will ultimately poop there. But they are all greater than any one poop.

was this really worth typing out, like do you feel good about the time spent on that

lolol

[Anonymous User]

The day of reckoning approaches. I'm trying hard not to think about my grades 2L year, which were not good. 2L GPA was 0.03 lower than my median-ish 1L GPA plus I got a C fall semester of 2L.

.03 lower for the year than your 1L gpa? You let yourself go from 3.240 to a 3.225? Sounds like you're toast. Most firms would rather have a 3.240 with mediocre work product than a 3.225 money maker.

If they didn't bring up your disastrous GPA drop during your mid-term review, I doubt that they'd use it as a basis to no-offer/cold-offer you..... it would have to be something more substantive, like your performance or personality.

OP here. The thing is, I know what their GPA cutoffs are and, even if I get an offer, I know that I will have one of the worst GPAs they've ever hired from my T20 school (at least in the last five years). How will I be able to look anyone straight in the eye?

I'm URM and it's pretty obvious why I'm there. I am a victim of affirmative action.

[BullShitWithBravado]

The day of reckoning approaches. I'm trying hard not to think about my grades 2L year, which were not good. 2L GPA was 0.03 lower than my median-ish 1L GPA plus I got a C fall semester of 2L.

.03 lower for the year than your 1L gpa? You let yourself go from 3.240 to a 3.225? Sounds like you're toast. Most firms would rather have a 3.240 with mediocre work product than a 3.225 money maker.

If they didn't bring up your disastrous GPA drop during your mid-term review, I doubt that they'd use it as a basis to no-offer/cold-offer you..... it would have to be something more substantive, like your performance or personality.

OP here. The thing is, I know what their GPA cutoffs are and, even if I get an offer, I know that I will have one of the worst GPAs they've ever hired from my T20 school (at least in the last five years). How will I be able to look anyone straight in the eye?

I'm URM and it's pretty obvious why I'm there. I am a victim of affirmative action.

Don't shortchange yourself. If your firm hired you with your lackluster grades it means they wanted to hire YOU. Think about it. If your firm was just looking to hire any URM, they could have hired any of the thousands of URMs out there that come from better schools and have better grades than you.

[LRGhost]

I'm URM and it's pretty obvious why I'm there. I am a victim of affirmative action.

You should never feel like a "victim" or like you don't belong. You do your work the best you can and you ask for help. You deserve to be there as much as the white dude who has two professional parents that offered 20+ years of guidance, etc.

[Anonymous User]

.03 lower for the year than your 1L gpa? You let yourself go from 3.240 to a 3.225? Sounds like you're toast. Most firms would rather have a 3.240 with mediocre work product than a 3.225 money maker.

If they didn't bring up your disastrous GPA drop during your mid-term review, I doubt that they'd use it as a basis to no-offer/cold-offer you..... it would have to be something more substantive, like your performance or personality.

OP here. The thing is, I know what their GPA cutoffs are and, even if I get an offer, I know that I will have one of the worst GPAs they've ever hired from my T20 school (at least in the last five years). How will I be able to look anyone straight in the eye?

I'm URM and it's pretty obvious why I'm there. I am a victim of affirmative action.

Don't shortchange yourself. If your firm hired you with your lackluster grades it means they wanted to hire YOU. Think about it. If your firm was just looking to hire any URM, they could have hired any of the thousands of URMs out there that come from better schools and have better grades than you.

Thanks for the reassurance. Deep down I know you're right.

I know this is an uncomfortable topic of conversation, but surely I can't be the only URM who's felt this way in biglaw. Looking around my summer class I see people with LR and near-perfect GPAs from my school, people from T6s, Harvard...

[Anonymous User]

I'm URM and it's pretty obvious why I'm there. I am a victim of affirmative action.

You should never feel like a "victim" or like you don't belong. You do your work the best you can and you ask for help. You deserve to be there as much as the white dude who has two professional parents that offered 20+ years of guidance, etc.

"Victim" is definitely a loaded word, a bad word, and I probably shouldn't have used it. Not to digress, but recently I've been reading Clarence Thomas' autobiography "My Grandfather's Son." As much as I disagree with him on nearly everything, his book definitely allowed me to see where he's coming from on a lot of the issues. It makes for an interesting contrast with Obama's "Dreams From My Father." An interesting read for sure.

As a person of color and an immigrant, TLS has been invaluable in terms of offering advice and information (about law school, employment, etc) that I felt like my peers knew that I didn't know. Thank you all.

[jd20132013]

The day of reckoning approaches. I'm trying hard not to think about my grades 2L year, which were not good. 2L GPA was 0.03 lower than my median-ish 1L GPA plus I got a C fall semester of 2L.

.03 lower for the year than your 1L gpa? You let yourself go from 3.240 to a 3.225? Sounds like you're toast. Most firms would rather have a 3.240 with mediocre work product than a 3.225 money maker.

If they didn't bring up your disastrous GPA drop during your mid-term review, I doubt that they'd use it as a basis to no-offer/cold-offer you..... it would have to be something more substantive, like your performance or personality.

OP here. The thing is, I know what their GPA cutoffs are and, even if I get an offer, I know that I will have one of the worst GPAs they've ever hired from my T20 school (at least in the last five years). How will I be able to look anyone straight in the eye?

I'm URM and it's pretty obvious why I'm there. I am a victim of affirmative action.

You're going to have to get over this feeling fast. people are going to look for reasons to discount you, that's the reality. you have to be your best ally or you won't make it.

sorry if that sounds harsh but it's also the truth. you got hired, you're there. time to kill it and do whatever it takes to be twice as good.

EDIT: by the way, even if your grades weren't the worst they'd ever hired from your school some people would still discount you. you can't tie your worth to that, not anymore

[Anonymous User]

Thanks for the reassurance. Deep down I know you're right.

I know this is an uncomfortable topic of conversation, but surely I can't be the only URM who's felt this way in biglaw. Looking around my summer class I see people with LR and near-perfect GPAs from my school, people from T6s, Harvard...

I've started to feel this way (1L summer associate) when I saw the cut off/preferences for 2L OCI. I'm just wide-eyed and confused as to (1) how I'm here and (2) if I'll be kept. There are other URMs in my class, from my school, who are are #1 in the 1L class and even more impressive.

I'm thankful for the opportunity and have tried my hardest to knock it out of the park, just occasionally get the first world problems blues.

[LRGhost]

I'm URM and it's pretty obvious why I'm there. I am a victim of affirmative action.

You should never feel like a "victim" or like you don't belong. You do your work the best you can and you ask for help. You deserve to be there as much as the white dude who has two professional parents that offered 20+ years of guidance, etc.

"Victim" is definitely a loaded word, a bad word, and I probably shouldn't have used it. Not to digress, but recently I've been reading Clarence Thomas' autobiography "My Grandfather's Son." As much as I disagree with him on nearly everything, his book definitely allowed me to see where he's coming from on a lot of the issues. It makes for an interesting contrast with Obama's "Dreams From My Father." An interesting read for sure.

As a person of color and an immigrant, TLS has been invaluable in terms of offering advice and information (about law school, employment, etc) that I felt like my peers knew that I didn't know. Thank you all.

Seriously, fuck anybody that tells you you don't deserve to be where you are. Did you get help? Probably. But it's not like white kids haven't received help either in their academic careers. Take advantage of everything you have. Seriously. Play it up. Your family isn't from here. You look different than people in corporate America. The deck is stacked against you regardless of any boost. You're there now and you don't need to be anything other than willing to succeed as an SA and as an associate. Anything you think you don't know, you can work at and learn as you go.

Also, if you're reading his book, read Sotomayor's book. It offers great insight into one of the reasons why AA works.

tl;dr fuck the opps, you're there, you probably do a great job, and you shouldn't be another factor working against yourself; you need to be your biggest advocate starting yesterday.

[jd20132013]

btw feel free to PM me if interested in talking, URM anon. not sure what i could say further i haven't said here but I never like to see people floundering--it's a hard enough biz to get into as it is

[LRGhost]

Same.

[jd20132013]

also sorry for suggesting you might be trolling. hadn't seen the subsequent posts when i wrote that.

[Anonymous User]

Thank you jd and LRG, that's definitely the pep talk I needed. At work I'm confident and self-assured 99% of the time. There's just that 1% of the time when I have my doubts -- like everyone else -- and TLS is one of the few places where I can actually vocalize those fears and doubts. Will definitely read the Sotomayor book as well.

[fl0w]

Thank you jd and LRG, that's definitely the pep talk I needed. At work I'm confident and self-assured 99% of the time. There's just that 1% of the time when I have my doubts -- like everyone else -- and TLS is one of the few places where I can actually vocalize those fears and doubts. Will definitely read the Sotomayor book as well.

add a third URM to the list you can contact.
I think we all go through this at one point, but like they said you've landed where you've landed. Everything's in your hands now. Eventually you'll see it as pretty liberating.

[redsox550]

Not counting my chickens yet or however the fuck the saying goes, but whats the deal with accepting an offer. I know NALP gives plenty of time and stuff, but if I am lucky enough to get an offer will the person who gives me the offer expect me to respond immediately? If i want a day or 2 to think about it should i prepare a response, do i need to provide a reason, whats the norm?

[SA2014]

mmmm......not sure where I am in the conversation. Who's SA ends this week? or next week? Is next week the latest?

[Danger Zone]

mmmm......not sure where I am in the conversation. Who's SA ends this week? or next week? Is next week the latest?

Some of us go one week later than that

[PepperJack]

Not counting my chickens yet or however the fuck the saying goes, but whats the deal with accepting an offer. I know NALP gives plenty of time and stuff, but if I am lucky enough to get an offer will the person who gives me the offer expect me to respond immediately? If i want a day or 2 to think about it should i prepare a response, do i need to provide a reason, whats the norm?

I've found that explaining your needs without being an asshole is generally a safe way to go.