The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls) Forum

[whitecollar23]

You should mass mail now. Mid-sized firms and up routinely hired grads who are not barred on the reasonable assumption that you will be barred in a few months.

Any ideas where to find a list of such firms so I don't accidentally apply to firms that will be more useful to mass mail later? And what do I even put in a mass mail email at this point? Haven't mass mailed in a year.

[Anonymous User]

Rising 3L here (will graduate December 2016 ). Summered at a V40 firm, was told no offer at my exit review. Totally shocked and screwed, since for the whole summer I received almost zero feedback to my work product, and no one ever told me I might have done something wrong. Two partners form my practice group already agreed to serve as my reference.

I am at a bottom T-14, hard science/engineering background, will go IP path. I don't really know how to start now. My school career center told me just apply all the NALP firms have IP practice. Also, I will study abroad this fall, would that make my job search even harder?

Thanks for any comments and suggestions!

[BVest]

You should mass mail now. Mid-sized firms and up routinely hired grads who are not barred on the reasonable assumption that you will be barred in a few months.

Any ideas where to find a list of such firms so I don't accidentally apply to firms that will be more useful to mass mail later? And what do I even put in a mass mail email at this point? Haven't mass mailed in a year.

Why does it matter? Mass-mail them now AND later. I've got a yearlong gig that ends this month and have been mass-mailing for the past eight months. My personal rule of thumb is if I want to mass-mail a firm that I've already mass-mailed, I do it unless I've already done so in the last six weeks. One of the few rejection letters I've received that has actually provided specifics about retaining resumes said they would keep my resume on file for 60 days. That seemed short to me, but I'll gladly send them a new one every 45 days to stay in that file.

As for what to say, "I am a 2016 graduate of Prestigious University School of Law, sat for the July 2016 New York Bar, and am writing to apply for an associate position beginning this fall." Anything after that will be the same regardless of whether you're mass-mailing pre- or post-results.

[Anonymous User]

Rising 3L here (will graduate December 2016 ). Summered at a V40 firm, was told no offer at my exit review. Totally shocked and screwed, since for the whole summer I received almost zero feedback to my work product, and no one ever told me I might have done something wrong. Two partners form my practice group already agreed to serve as my reference.

I am at a bottom T-14, hard science/engineering background, will go IP path. I don't really know how to start now. My school career center told me just apply all the NALP firms have IP practice. Also, I will study abroad this fall, would that make my job search even harder?

Thanks for any comments and suggestions!

Might be harder for callbacks, but maybe they will pay for international flights?

[Anonymous User]

Is there an updated BYU Jobbank login/password? OP one doesn't seem to be working.

Bump

[Anonymous User]

jobfind
Password: lawschool2016

Is there an updated BYU Jobbank login/password? OP one doesn't seem to be working.

Bump

[TTH]

jobfind
Password: lawschool2016

Is there an updated BYU Jobbank login/password? OP one doesn't seem to be working.

Bump

Updated. Thanks.

[TheoO]

Rising 3L here (will graduate December 2016 ). Summered at a V40 firm, was told no offer at my exit review. Totally shocked and screwed, since for the whole summer I received almost zero feedback to my work product, and no one ever told me I might have done something wrong. Two partners form my practice group already agreed to serve as my reference.

I am at a bottom T-14, hard science/engineering background, will go IP path. I don't really know how to start now. My school career center told me just apply all the NALP firms have IP practice. Also, I will study abroad this fall, would that make my job search even harder?

Thanks for any comments and suggestions!

You should probably cancel your study abroad, to be honest. You need to find a job, sadly. I know that this is a real bummer and I'm so sorry this happened.

Perhaps if you are studying in a city where the firm has an office, you might be able to go there and teleconference with the city you are interviewing with, but I doubt that they will cover all the expense of a flight and back

[Anonymous User]

btw for those who are licensed but not yet hired, how did you register your address with the state bar? In particular, for CA, can you set it to a PO box instead of your home address?

[Anonymous User]

jobfind
Password: lawschool2016

Is there an updated BYU Jobbank login/password? OP one doesn't seem to be working.

Bump

what's the link to the job bank? The one by BYU career services is not working.

[iliketurtles123]

No joke. Mods, can we change the title of this thread? Or at least get a vote to do so?

I know it's just the title but hear me out. When job searching, or going through a major difficult challenge in life, sources of negativity should be cut off. IMO the title of this thread can be a huge detriment to the mentality of everyone who has struck out. I know for me, I've avoided this thread for the longest time, even with the helpful resources. I didn't want to associate with people (in real life or online) that had a defeatist mentality (whether or not people on this thread have a defeatist mentality is moot. It's the title that gives this feeling). I also felt like every time I checked this thread, I felt like I had somehow failed even more miserably. I fought hard so I wouldn't admit to myself that I'm part of "The Vale".

Overall, I think TLS is a great resource but some aspects do not help law students/lawyers with their mental health. The mentality shouldn't be "I struck out. I'm screwed". It should be "I struck out but that's just one hurdle in life that I need to get over", and the title of this thread doesn't really help. We need to change this mentality. Not just this thread but the legal profession (or at least TLS) as a whole. It's one thing to be risk averse and understand that striking out is possibly going to be damaging to your career in at least some way, but it's another thing to tell everyone they're screwed and paint everything in grey, even metaphorically. (I'm also not saying we should falsely paint a rosy picture)

Maybe I'm being a little bitch about this but striking out and having no job is probably one of the most difficult things I've ever experienced, and keeping a positive mentality is pretty important IMO. "The Vale of Tears" doesn't exactly seem like the best way to do that.

That's just my two cents. If others agree, maybe mods can change the title (not just for me but for future job searchers). If not, then fuck it I'll deal with it.

[BVest]

what's the link to the job bank? The one by BYU career services is not working.

https://www.law2.byu.edu/Career_Services/jobbank/

[Anonymous User]

(whether or not people on this thread have a defeatist mentality is moot. It's the title that gives this feeling). I also felt like every time I checked this thread, I felt like I had somehow failed even more miserably. I fought hard so I wouldn't admit to myself that I'm part of "The Vale".

Overall, I think TLS is a great resource but some aspects do not help law students/lawyers with their mental health. The mentality shouldn't be "I struck out. I'm screwed". It should be "I struck out but that's just one hurdle in life that I need to get over", and the title of this thread doesn't really help. We need to change this mentality. Not just this thread but the legal profession (or at least TLS) as a whole. It's one thing to be risk averse and understand that striking out is possibly going to be damaging to your career in at least some way, but it's another thing to tell everyone they're screwed and paint everything in grey, even metaphorically. (I'm also not saying we should falsely paint a rosy picture)

Maybe I'm being a little bitch about this but striking out and having no job is probably one of the most difficult things I've ever experienced, and keeping a positive mentality is pretty important IMO. "The Vale of Tears" doesn't exactly seem like the best way to do that.

That's just my two cents. If others agree, maybe mods can change the title (not just for me but for future job searchers). If not, then fuck it I'll deal with it.

I absolutely disagree. I was one of the original vale users after I got no offered and while I whined and vented, the thread never felt defeatist because we helped each other. The vale is nothing more than a reference to a christian doctrine of life's tribulations. That's it. A title means shit. What matters is what's happening inside the thread.

[omar1]

(whether or not people on this thread have a defeatist mentality is moot. It's the title that gives this feeling). I also felt like every time I checked this thread, I felt like I had somehow failed even more miserably. I fought hard so I wouldn't admit to myself that I'm part of "The Vale".

Overall, I think TLS is a great resource but some aspects do not help law students/lawyers with their mental health. The mentality shouldn't be "I struck out. I'm screwed". It should be "I struck out but that's just one hurdle in life that I need to get over", and the title of this thread doesn't really help. We need to change this mentality. Not just this thread but the legal profession (or at least TLS) as a whole. It's one thing to be risk averse and understand that striking out is possibly going to be damaging to your career in at least some way, but it's another thing to tell everyone they're screwed and paint everything in grey, even metaphorically. (I'm also not saying we should falsely paint a rosy picture)

Maybe I'm being a little bitch about this but striking out and having no job is probably one of the most difficult things I've ever experienced, and keeping a positive mentality is pretty important IMO. "The Vale of Tears" doesn't exactly seem like the best way to do that.

That's just my two cents. If others agree, maybe mods can change the title (not just for me but for future job searchers). If not, then fuck it I'll deal with it.

I absolutely disagree. I was one of the original vale users after I got no offered and while I whined and vented, the thread never felt defeatist because we helped each other. The vale is nothing more than a reference to a christian doctrine of life's tribulations. That's it. A title means shit. What matters is what's happening inside the thread.

+1

[A. Nony Mouse]

If TTH wants to change the title, that's totally up to him. But I was around when the thread was created or soon after, and it was important because I think up to that point there'd been very little open discussion about what to do if you were no-offered. No-offers sort of ran counter to the TLS narrative (at the time) of how your law school/career trajectory was supposed to go, and I think it was important that the thread started an open discussion about that. I don't think the title was (or is) defeatist, it's just acknowledging and naming a detour on the way to career success that up till that point hadn't really been addressed. The whole point of the Vale is that "striking out and having no job is probably one of the most difficult things [anyone here has] ever experienced", and it puts a name to that experience.

It was also important to have a space where people in the same situation could talk about it without people butting in saying "well did you try X" or "what should *I* do not to end up like you???" (which is where the "No advice for 0/1/2Ls" came from). I think the attitude of the thread has very much been "I struck out but that's just one hurdle in life that I need to get over," but also this thread gave people the chance to work through the emotional elements of being no-offered or striking out (there are other 3L job search threads, like on 3L OCI or massmailing, that don't address that part).

But in the end, it's still TTH's thread, and he's around, and the title is up to him.

(I also think the Vale is very much about what to do when your job search doesn't fit the traditional narrative, so specifically no-offers or striking out at OCI, rather than all 3L job hunting - a lot of PI jobs, like DA/PD, traditionally don't hire till 3L or after graduation, and it always annoyed me when PI people would plop themselves down into this thread as soon as 3L hit and declare themselves in the Vale, when their job search was still on a normal trajectory. Maybe it was just one person who notoriously did that. Anyway.)

[theInnerCircle]

Applied to work in the legal dept of a company. They're looking at 3Ls and recent grads. Think I priced myself out during the first phone interview. FML. What are employers expecting when they ask you to price yourself? I asked for what has the equivalent of $20-25/hr. (edit: $50k~) Help.

Edit: they are a new-ish company, think tech mixed w/ finance. Okay, that's all I will share to help others in guess-timating if I screwed up.

[Anonymous User]

Rising 3L here (will graduate December 2016 ). Summered at a V40 firm, was told no offer at my exit review. Totally shocked and screwed, since for the whole summer I received almost zero feedback to my work product, and no one ever told me I might have done something wrong. Two partners form my practice group already agreed to serve as my reference.

I am at a bottom T-14, hard science/engineering background, will go IP path. I don't really know how to start now. My school career center told me just apply all the NALP firms have IP practice. Also, I will study abroad this fall, would that make my job search even harder?

Thanks for any comments and suggestions!

I also just got no-offered. Large V100 firm. I'm top 15%, secondary journal, Trial Team at a lower T1. I feel totally screwed. Don't even know where to begin. Welcome to the Vale.

[BVest]

Applied to work in the legal dept of a company. They're looking at 3Ls and recent grads. Think I priced myself out during the first phone interview. FML. What are employers expecting when they ask you to price yourself? I asked for what has the equivalent of $20-25/hr. (edit: $50k~) Help.

Edit: they are a new-ish company, think tech mixed w/ finance. Okay, that's all I will share to help others in guess-timating if I screwed up.

You probably low-balled yourself. Sometimes that can be fatal in that some people will ascribe a qualitative measure to your salary demands (i.e. "well, he must not be very good if he doesn't think he's worth more than $50k." I heard about one study that found this to be the case for people giving salary histories). But sometimes it just means you're setting yourself up for a lower offer than you might have otherwise received.

Glassdoor is a good source for what different people make at various companies; you should definitely be pricing yourself highly among the employees of the company. In addition, there are many reports (including this one) on attorney salaries. For new grads/1 year out in-house, I don't think I'd be asking for less than $90k, and generally more than that. The in-house jobs I sought were with larger companies (I don't want to be one of only two attorneys in my first year in practice) and I always asked for $120k or more.

[theInnerCircle]

Applied to work in the legal dept of a company. They're looking at 3Ls and recent grads. Think I priced myself out during the first phone interview. FML. What are employers expecting when they ask you to price yourself? I asked for what has the equivalent of $20-25/hr. (edit: $50k~) Help.

Edit: they are a new-ish company, think tech mixed w/ finance. Okay, that's all I will share to help others in guess-timating if I screwed up.

You probably low-balled yourself. Sometimes that can be fatal in that some people will ascribe a qualitative measure to your salary demands (i.e. "well, he must not be very good if he doesn't think he's worth more than $50k." I heard about one study that found this to be the case for people giving salary histories). But sometimes it just means you're setting yourself up for a lower offer than you might have otherwise received.

Glassdoor is a good source for what different people make at various companies; you should definitely be pricing yourself highly among the employees of the company. In addition, there are many reports (including this one) on attorney salaries. For new grads/1 year out in-house, I don't think I'd be asking for less than $90k, and generally more than that. The in-house jobs I sought were with larger companies (I don't want to be one of only two attorneys in my first year in practice) and I always asked for $120k or more.

thanks for that pdf.

I think if anything, going off of that pdf, I lowballed myself by about 5-10k (edit: considering experience I think I was closer to the mark but still under). Basically I'm supposed to be starting out as more of a legal assistant-ish w/i a smaller to mid-size company, so I went w/ those numbers. But judging by the tone of the person's voice, it was if I was too high. Ugh.

[FSK]

This thread has the correct tone, as one who was in the vale up until essentially days before the bar. I was able to share my worst defeats here and get encouragement/advice from people who understood my mindset.

Life is basically just a small series of success and failures. Not big ones, but little ones. And this thread always reminded me to keep pushing for more small success. That road lead to literal tears for me over the past year. So, good title.

[EvelynS]

After being unemployed for more than a year (2015 grad), I finally got an interview coming up soon. I am so nervous though. How should I address my unemployment gap? I feel like damage goods at this point. Needless to say, I really really really need this job. Any thoughts/ advice will be highly appreciated.

[rinkrat19]

Been almost a year since I posted in here. It was a nice reprieve.

Getting tired of having the "Oh, you're leaving in September? Why?" "Well, my PI fellowship is ending and they've hired 3 other people but haven't hired me" conversation with everyone I encounter at my DA's office.

[Genius]

I applied to all the Vault 100 firms that had an office in my city. No offer yet but it has been a remarkable feat for me.

Do you guys also send your app to the managing partner/alumni in addition to recruiting? I've been doing this and it made no difference so far.

[Anonymous User]

3 months after graduation I have escaped the Vale. Accepted a job in a secondary market, 80,000 a yr, boutique firm. Cold called them, worked over the summer (didn't even take the bar which was a risk, doing the February bar while working for them in meantime).

Keep fighting the good fight to those trying to escape as well.

[EvelynS]

3 months after graduation I have escaped the Vale. Accepted a job in a secondary market, 80,000 a yr, boutique firm. Cold called them, worked over the summer (didn't even take the bar which was a risk, doing the February bar while working for them in meantime).

Keep fighting the good fight to those trying to escape as well.

Congrats!!!! So pleased to hear that some of us made it out of the vale.