Penn OCI Forum

[Twelve64]

How difficult is the Philly market to get into w/o ties? CPP does not make it seem all that difficult but this thread seems to indicate otherwise.

[Anonymous User]

How difficult is the Philly market to get into w/o ties? CPP does not make it seem all that difficult but this thread seems to indicate otherwise.

Really? I have great grades and strong Philly ties, and CP&P told me to move my Philly bids even higher b/c of how competitive the market is and how many Penn people are apparently bidding on it this year. It's notoriously rough for those without ties and supposedly going to be rougher than ever this time around.

[Nelson]

How difficult is the Philly market to get into w/o ties? CPP does not make it seem all that difficult but this thread seems to indicate otherwise.

Really? I have great grades and strong Philly ties, and CP&P told me to move my Philly bids even higher b/c of how competitive the market is and how many Penn people are apparently bidding on it this year. It's notoriously rough for those without ties and supposedly going to be rougher than ever this time around.

Getting screeners and CBs is not difficult but there are very few spots so getting an offer is tough. You don't need to bid (most) Philly firms very high to get screeners.

[Twelve64]

How difficult is the Philly market to get into w/o ties? CPP does not make it seem all that difficult but this thread seems to indicate otherwise.

Really? I have great grades and strong Philly ties, and CP&P told me to move my Philly bids even higher b/c of how competitive the market is and how many Penn people are apparently bidding on it this year. It's notoriously rough for those without ties and supposedly going to be rougher than ever this time around.

They did mention that interest in the area has increased, but so far as offers go they made it out to be a not too difficult task. I was confused because, like you said, I had heard it's very tough esp for someone without solid ties. I don't think it'll be a problem getting screeners as many of the firms have 40+ spots, but I'm wondering how tough it is to actually get a job. From this thread it seems as though many people interested last year couldn't get anything in the market at all.

[Anonymous User]

Hey everyone,

I'm bent on getting DC, but terrified of missing out entirely since I keep hearing and reading horror stories. I've lived and worked in a few different cities, but DC is by far my favorite and where I want to be. I would like to do big law litigation or employment work.

As it stands I have nearly every DC firm listed on my bid list except for the ones that look like they have the highest grade requirements like Covington, S&T, and AP. I've rounded out the bottom of my bid list (50-60) with NYC firms, but understand there is a small chance any of those would be successful.

My grades are: A+, A-,A-, B+, B+, B, B.

Is my strategy entirely reckless? I really don't want to try and lateral into DC through NY, but will if it's between that and no shot at a job.

[jumpin munkey]

Nelson, OutCold, and the others can offer better advice, but that sounds like a recipe for striking out. You're immediately out at all the places with the largest classes, and you can't bank on places with 12 summers.

[OutCold]

Hey everyone,

I'm bent on getting DC, but terrified of missing out entirely since I keep hearing and reading horror stories. I've lived and worked in a few different cities, but DC is by far my favorite and where I want to be. I would like to do big law litigation or employment work.

As it stands I have nearly every DC firm listed on my bid list except for the ones that look like they have the highest grade requirements like Covington, S&T, and AP. I've rounded out the bottom of my bid list (50-60) with NYC firms, but understand there is a small chance any of those would be successful.

My grades are: A+, A-,A-, B+, B+, B, B.

Is my strategy entirely reckless? I really don't want to try and lateral into DC through NY, but will if it's between that and no shot at a job.

Nelson, OutCold, and the others can offer better advice, but that sounds like a recipe for striking out. You're immediately out at all the places with the largest classes, and you can't bank on places with 12 summers.

That's a pretty reasonable assessment. You aren't in a bad place at all--probably a bit above median. That makes DC a risky play for you, especially when your chances of landing at a solid NY firm are relatively high. By bidding all those DC firms upfront, you are essentially ensuring that you will not receive interviews with the larger, less grade-conscious NY firms that will be filling up quickly. I highly recommend you fill up most of your top 20 with safe NY firms and round out the top 30 with less-selective DC firms. The bottom line is that the strategy of bidding all DC in the top 30 with median grades is a good way to potentially miss out with grades that should otherwise land you something. I understand the notion of wanting to work in DC instead of NY, but what you need to understand is that it is a hell of a lot more desirable to be employed in NY than unemployed somewhere else. Take your shots with the 8 or so DC screeners you'll get and make the most of them. Chances are if you don't land something out of that group in DC, the other results wouldn't have been much different. Maximize your callbacks by bidding the safely in NY.

[NoChainz]

Hey everyone,

I'm bent on getting DC, but terrified of missing out entirely since I keep hearing and reading horror stories. I've lived and worked in a few different cities, but DC is by far my favorite and where I want to be. I would like to do big law litigation or employment work.

As it stands I have nearly every DC firm listed on my bid list except for the ones that look like they have the highest grade requirements like Covington, S&T, and AP. I've rounded out the bottom of my bid list (50-60) with NYC firms, but understand there is a small chance any of those would be successful.

My grades are: A+, A-,A-, B+, B+, B, B.

Is my strategy entirely reckless? I really don't want to try and lateral into DC through NY, but will if it's between that and no shot at a job.

Nelson, OutCold, and the others can offer better advice, but that sounds like a recipe for striking out. You're immediately out at all the places with the largest classes, and you can't bank on places with 12 summers.

That's a pretty reasonable assessment. You aren't in a bad place at all--probably a bit above median. That makes DC a risky play for you, especially when your chances of landing at a solid NY firm are relatively high. By bidding all those DC firms upfront, you are essentially ensuring that you will not receive interviews with the larger, less grade-conscious NY firms that will be filling up quickly. I highly recommend you fill up most of your top 20 with safe NY firms and round out the top 30 with less-selective DC firms. The bottom line is that the strategy of bidding all DC in the top 30 with median grades is a good way to potentially miss out with grades that should otherwise land you something. I understand the notion of wanting to work in DC instead of NY, but what you need to understand is that it is a hell of a lot more desirable to be employed in NY than unemployed somewhere else. Take your shots with the 8 or so DC screeners you'll get and make the most of them. Chances are if you don't land something out of that group in DC, the other results wouldn't have been much different. Maximize your callbacks by bidding the safely in NY.

You think it is possible to get that many DC screeners bidding that low?

[OutCold]

I was assuming you put maybe 4 or 5 DC firms in your top 20 strategically, and another 6 or so in 20-30. You'll have to do the analysis, but I would imagine you'd get most, if not all, of those in your top 20 and probably a decent chunk of those 20-30. If I remember correctly, I got probably 20 of my top 30 firms, and another 5 or 6 in the back 30. So yes, I think you'd get about 8 or so if you bid in that manner. Regardless, in my opinion it's better to have NY screeners than DC screeners if you are median.

[Anonymous User]

Thanks.

[Nelson]

To anon directly above me: looks fine but you should not expect to rely solely on OCI, assuming that 3.25 means 5+ B range grades.

[Anonymous User]

Hey everyone,

I'm bent on getting DC, but terrified of missing out entirely since I keep hearing and reading horror stories. I've lived and worked in a few different cities, but DC is by far my favorite and where I want to be. I would like to do big law litigation or employment work.

As it stands I have nearly every DC firm listed on my bid list except for the ones that look like they have the highest grade requirements like Covington, S&T, and AP. I've rounded out the bottom of my bid list (50-60) with NYC firms, but understand there is a small chance any of those would be successful.

My grades are: A+, A-,A-, B+, B+, B, B.

Is my strategy entirely reckless? I really don't want to try and lateral into DC through NY, but will if it's between that and no shot at a job.

Yea, it's risky to bid reflecting your love for DC....but just because you don't bid NYC slots, does not mean you can't get them. Classmates who get offers early will be wanting to drop NYC firm slots. If you bid for DC you need to be on the prowl for people dropping those slots to get in as many NYC interviews as possible. I personally ended up doing 30 OCI interviews even though I only received 20 or 21 from bidding, so it is possible. Obviously its not a GUARANTEE and you wont be able to control which firms get dropped, but it is far from an impossibility.

[Anonymous User]

Hey everyone,

I'm bent on getting DC, but terrified of missing out entirely since I keep hearing and reading horror stories. I've lived and worked in a few different cities, but DC is by far my favorite and where I want to be. I would like to do big law litigation or employment work.

As it stands I have nearly every DC firm listed on my bid list except for the ones that look like they have the highest grade requirements like Covington, S&T, and AP. I've rounded out the bottom of my bid list (50-60) with NYC firms, but understand there is a small chance any of those would be successful.

My grades are: A+, A-,A-, B+, B+, B, B.

Is my strategy entirely reckless? I really don't want to try and lateral into DC through NY, but will if it's between that and no shot at a job.

Nelson, OutCold, and the others can offer better advice, but that sounds like a recipe for striking out. You're immediately out at all the places with the largest classes, and you can't bank on places with 12 summers.

That's a pretty reasonable assessment. You aren't in a bad place at all--probably a bit above median. That makes DC a risky play for you, especially when your chances of landing at a solid NY firm are relatively high. By bidding all those DC firms upfront, you are essentially ensuring that you will not receive interviews with the larger, less grade-conscious NY firms that will be filling up quickly. I highly recommend you fill up most of your top 20 with safe NY firms and round out the top 30 with less-selective DC firms. The bottom line is that the strategy of bidding all DC in the top 30 with median grades is a good way to potentially miss out with grades that should otherwise land you something. I understand the notion of wanting to work in DC instead of NY, but what you need to understand is that it is a hell of a lot more desirable to be employed in NY than unemployed somewhere else. Take your shots with the 8 or so DC screeners you'll get and make the most of them. Chances are if you don't land something out of that group in DC, the other results wouldn't have been much different. Maximize your callbacks by bidding the safely in NY.

Thanks for all the thoughts and doses of reality. I really appreciate it. Do you have suggestions for safe NY firms where it might be decently possible to eventually lateral or ask to split a summer?

[Skump]

How difficult is the Philly market to get into w/o ties? CPP does not make it seem all that difficult but this thread seems to indicate otherwise.

Yeah, well... CP&P says a lot of things that aren't exactly true.

I have several friends who work at Philly firms, and they would all offer the same advice: Treat Philly as a secondary market at your peril if that's where you actually want to be.

Philly firms know that NYC is the primary market for Penn students. They also know that most students will regionally diversify their lower rank bids in an attempt to maximize their employment odds. IOW, Philly firms know that the typical Penn student will reject a Philly offer if a market-paying NYC offer is on tap.

If you go into OCI without a solid narrative about why you want to be in Philly, you are very likely to end OCI without an offer at a Philly firm. Here's something else Philly firms know: Law students are pretty good liars. This means that a solid narrative has its foundation in facts relevant to employment, not your youthful enthusiasm and attested love for Bubba Q:

1) If you haven't already, join the local Bar association, immediately.
2) Attend attorney events in Philly; network, network, network, network.
3) Reach out to attorneys at Philly firms. Ask them if they're available for a phone call or lunch to discuss their experiences (you should really be doing this for every firm you're seriously interested in, anyway; the insights and connections you gain from networking will make it far easier to establish rapport with a firm's reps during OCI).
4) Scrutinize your resume, in the most uncharitable light possible, for anything suggests Philly isn't your primary market.
5) Be prepared for the inevitable question, "so what other markets are you looking at?" Have a damn good follow up if that answer consists of something other than "none."

[Anonymous User]

how effed am i for oci with: B, B, B+, B, B-, B-, B-. 4 years higher level work experience, strong interviewer, do i have any hope of getting callbacks or even an offer if i'm not too selective about geography? or should i prep myself for joblessness?

you're not effed. no one is effed in july. i had similar grades, K-JD, and ended up with multiple OCI offers. i say this not to encourage special snowflake syndrome, but as a reminder that it's not over 'til it's over, you know? it's all about what you can and can't control: your grades are what they are, but the interviews are still up to you. it's much easier to interview well if you haven't counted yourself out yet. i know this sounds very kumbaya coming from the other side but when you see how stressed out some of your classmates will be during OCI, i really think it's a big deal to be coming in calm and confident.

edit: the biggest thing i did in july to make myself feel less like i was in a very deep hole gradewise was to email every penn and (my) undergrad alum i could find who were working at the firms i actually got slots at. i would say i had about a 50-60% response rate, and would use those contacts to learn more about the firm, to show interest, and, later, to name-drop during an interview. did it actually help me get a job? i don't know, probably not. did it make me feel like i was doing something other than freaking out about my grades? yes.

[OutCold]

How difficult is the Philly market to get into w/o ties? CPP does not make it seem all that difficult but this thread seems to indicate otherwise.

Yeah, well... CP&P says a lot of things that aren't exactly true.

I have several friends who work at Philly firms, and they would all offer the same advice: Treat Philly as a secondary market at your peril if that's where you actually want to be.

Philly firms know that NYC is the primary market for Penn students. They also know that most students will regionally diversify their lower rank bids in an attempt to maximize their employment odds. IOW, Philly firms know that the typical Penn student will reject a Philly offer if a market-paying NYC offer is on tap.

If you go into OCI without a solid narrative about why you want to be in Philly, you are very likely to end OCI without an offer at a Philly firm. Here's something else Philly firms know: Law students are pretty good liars. This means that a solid narrative has its foundation in facts relevant to employment, not your youthful enthusiasm and attested love for Bubba Q:

1) If you haven't already, join the local Bar association, immediately.
2) Attend attorney events in Philly; network, network, network, network.
3) Reach out to attorneys at Philly firms. Ask them if they're available for a phone call or lunch to discuss their experiences (you should really be doing this for every firm you're seriously interested in, anyway; the insights and connections you gain from networking will make it far easier to establish rapport with a firm's reps during OCI).
4) Scrutinize your resume, in the most uncharitable light possible, for anything suggests Philly isn't your primary market.
5) Be prepared for the inevitable question, "so what other markets are you looking at?" Have a damn good follow up if that answer consists of something other than "none."

This is what I have heard, but I was pretty successful bidding Philly as a secondary/tertiary option. I can only speak to my own experience, but the larger Philly firms (Dechert for instance) are not so impenetrable that you can't sell them without doing all this legwork. My narrative was "I've spent a significant amount of time in both NY and Philly, and while I'm bidding NY as well because I need to round out my bids and make sure I'm employed, I would much rather be here in Philly. Your firm offers the same quality of work, but in the environment I would legitimately prefer to be in." Of course, this really only works well if you've lived in or around the tri-state area for a while. There are a number of associates and partners at the Philly firms that started their careers in NY and lateraled to Philly later, so they understand the draw of the Philly environment as opposed to being in NY.

That is my admittedly limited experience. The general consensus is that it is really tough to break the Philly market without going all-out, but perhaps I just got really lucky in terms of my interviewers. Regardless, Philly is definitely more unpredictable than safely bidding NY.

Did I mention how SAFE it is to bid NY?

[OutCold]

how effed am i for oci with: B, B, B+, B, B-, B-, B-. 4 years higher level work experience, strong interviewer, do i have any hope of getting callbacks or even an offer if i'm not too selective about geography? or should i prep myself for joblessness?

you're not effed. no one is effed in july. i had similar grades, K-JD, and ended up with multiple OCI offers. i say this not to encourage special snowflake syndrome, but as a reminder that it's not over 'til it's over, you know? it's all about what you can and can't control: your grades are what they are, but the interviews are still up to you. it's much easier to interview well if you haven't counted yourself out yet. i know this sounds very kumbaya coming from the other side but when you see how stressed out some of your classmates will be during OCI, i really think it's a big deal to be coming in calm and confident.

edit: the biggest thing i did in july to make myself feel less like i was in a very deep hole gradewise was to email every penn and (my) undergrad alum i could find who were working at the firms i actually got slots at. i would say i had about a 50-60% response rate, and would use those contacts to learn more about the firm, to show interest, and, later, to name-drop during an interview. did it actually help me get a job? i don't know, probably not. did it make me feel like i was doing something other than freaking out about my grades? yes.

That is good advice. It is really helpful to be able to tell a firm you are interested in them for a clear and coherent reason because you spoke with X associate. While it doesn't work miracles, it certainly scores some points.

Also, as mentioned, you aren't screwed, but you should really mail broadly to increase your chances. Any interview you can pick up is one more chance to land something.

[Skump]

This is what I have heard, but I was pretty successful bidding Philly as a secondary/tertiary option. I can only speak to my own experience, but the larger Philly firms (Dechert for instance) are not so impenetrable that you can't sell them without doing all this legwork. My narrative was "I've spent a significant amount of time in both NY and Philly, and while I'm bidding NY as well because I need to round out my bids and make sure I'm employed, I would much rather be here in Philly. Your firm offers the same quality of work, but in the environment I would legitimately prefer to be in." Of course, this really only works well if you've lived in or around the tri-state area for a while. There are a number of associates and partners at the Philly firms that started their careers in NY and lateraled to Philly later, so they understand the draw of the Philly environment as opposed to being in NY.

That is my admittedly limited experience. The general consensus is that it is really tough to break the Philly market without going all-out, but perhaps I just got really lucky in terms of my interviewers. Regardless, Philly is definitely more unpredictable than safely bidding NY.

Did I mention how SAFE it is to bid NY?

Of course, following my advice isn't strictly necessary to get a Philly firm to take a chance on you. However, a student only gets one shot to distinguish himself at OCI. Unless the opportunity cost of local networking is high, it would be unwise not to make the effort (assuming a sincere interest in the market, of course).

I mean, after all, put yourself in the position of an OCI screener having to make the cut between two academically comparable candidates with the following narratives:

Candidate 1: "I've spent a significant amount of time in both NY and Philly, and while I'm bidding NY as well because I need to round out my bids and make sure I'm employed, I would much rather be here in Philly. Your firm offers the same quality of work, but in the environment I would legitimately prefer to be in."

Candidate 2: "I've spent a significant amount of time in both NY and Philly, and while I'm bidding NY as well because I need to round out my bids and make sure I'm employed, I would much rather be here in Philly. Your firm offers the same quality of work, but in the environment I would legitimately prefer to be in. ...

Because Philly is my target market, I've been working to build professional contacts in its legal community and learn as much about it as I can. Actually, it was [X] at your firm who first recommended that I join the local bar association. That turned out to be great advice. Getting active in the association has given me the chance to speak with a lot of Philly attorneys and even a couple of judges. I remember Judge [Y] pointed out that [Z], which really resonates with how I see my career unfolding right now."

Assume appropriate pauses for questions, clarifications, etc.

Candiate #1 is a guy who likes Philadelphia - maybe. Candidate #2 is a guy who probably likes Philadelphia, and is definitely a sociable, ambitious go-getter who has gone the extra mile to demonstrate sincere interest in the local market.

Other things being roughly equal, who are you going to take a chance on?

[Anonymous User]

Does anyone have an idea how high one has to bid Sidley NY to have a good chance of getting a screener?

[PennBull]

Does anyone have an idea how high one has to bid Sidley NY to have a good chance of getting a screener?

how many slots do they have?

[Anonymous User]

Does anyone have an idea how high one has to bid Sidley NY to have a good chance of getting a screener?

how many slots do they have?

40

[PennBull]

Does anyone have an idea how high one has to bid Sidley NY to have a good chance of getting a screener?

how many slots do they have?

40

Top 8 to be certain, Top 15 is fairly solid, doubtful below 22-24

[Anonymous User]

Does anyone have an idea how high one has to bid Sidley NY to have a good chance of getting a screener?

how many slots do they have?

40

Top 8 to be certain, Top 15 is fairly solid, doubtful below 22-24

Thank you. That was about what I thought.

[Nelson]

Prob need to be top 10 to get Sidley NY. Less selective firm, 40 slots, low bid success last year and high CB ratio = going to get bid hard.

[PennBull]

Prob need to be top 10 to get Sidley NY. Less selective firm, 40 slots, low bid success last year and high CB ratio = going to get bid hard.

I got it at #9 when they only had 20 slots so I wasn't so sure.