Summer Associates 2014: Thoughts, Anxieties, Experiences... Forum

[2014]

I mean I agree that 95% or whatever is worse than 100% and students do gossip monger about it, especially when the no offered students come from your school, but you can't forget that the market still heavily favors firms and for most people OCI is a feast or famine thing. You have people with 15 offers who were never going to choose those firms anyway and people with 1-2 offers who would take the firm if it had a 30% offer rate. There is no marginal change in the quality of student they get based on their offer rate in my opinion, we are all basically fungible with few exceptions.

That they have somehow turned 100% into a magical threshold in the dick measuring contest is very favorable to students and doesn't make a whole lot of sense from the firm's perspective imo (similar to hiring us after 1L).

[El Pollito]

S&C no-offered last year. It wasn't a cold offer.

In the NYC office, or one of the others? Why isn't this reflected on NALP?

NYC and can confirm. From what I hear, the guy really earned it.

[NYSprague]

S&C no-offered last year. It wasn't a cold offer.

In the NYC office, or one of the others? Why isn't this reflected on NALP?

NYC and can confirm. From what I hear, the guy really earned it.

That wasn't the guy who got fired for not reporting his criminal history (for statutory rape in a consensual relationship in high school) was it? Or was that Cleary?

[PepperJack]

Sounds like a lose-lose-lose outcome for all involved.

[Neal Patrick Harris]

S&C no-offered last year. It wasn't a cold offer.

In the NYC office, or one of the others? Why isn't this reflected on NALP?

NYC and can confirm. From what I hear, the guy really earned it.

That wasn't the guy who got fired for not reporting his criminal history (for statutory rape in a consensual relationship in high school) was it? Or was that Cleary?

That was Cleary

[SA2014]

NYC and can confirm. From what I hear, the guy really earned it.

That wasn't the guy who got fired for not reporting his criminal history (for statutory rape in a consensual relationship in high school) was it? Or was that Cleary?

You're referring to Cleary, for an SA's past mistake. At S&C, it was for a mistake during the summer......not only was the guy completely clueless, but they caught him getting high there. You have to remember that V10 firms pride themselves on making correct decisions at the OCI screener level, and you really have to work at getting no-offered.

[Anonymous User]

If somehow I end up getting "no offered," I fully intend to press the firm to give me a cold-offer. It is mutually beneficial after all, as long as they can feel confident that you won't ninja-accept it

Most firms won't give you one.

True, but not for reasons you think. Every near 100% firm cold offers folks, often 5%+ of the class. But the reason you won't be able to get a cold offer from those firms if you get a no offer is that the no offer is rare and reserved for someone who is viewed as a real asshole; mere well-meaning incompetence will never give rise to a no-offer from a near 100% firm.

Tl;dr - if you get a no offer from a fancy firm, you've pissed them off, it's personal, and you're not negotiating anything.

[Old Gregg]

If somehow I end up getting "no offered," I fully intend to press the firm to give me a cold-offer. It is mutually beneficial after all, as long as they can feel confident that you won't ninja-accept it

Most firms won't give you one.

True, but not for reasons you think. Every near 100% firm cold offers folks, often 5%+ of the class. But the reason you won't be able to get a cold offer from those firms if you get a no offer is that the no offer is rare and reserved for someone who is viewed as a real asshole; mere well-meaning incompetence will never give rise to a no-offer from a near 100% firm.

Tl;dr - if you get a no offer from a fancy firm, you've pissed them off, it's personal, and you're not negotiating anything.

How do you know it's not for reasons he/she thinks?

Why are you anonymous?

And this sounds wrong anyways. You're an idiot.

[Danger Zone]

Zweit to the rescue

[Anonymous User]

If somehow I end up getting "no offered," I fully intend to press the firm to give me a cold-offer. It is mutually beneficial after all, as long as they can feel confident that you won't ninja-accept it

Most firms won't give you one.

True, but not for reasons you think. Every near 100% firm cold offers folks, often 5%+ of the class. But the reason you won't be able to get a cold offer from those firms if you get a no offer is that the no offer is rare and reserved for someone who is viewed as a real asshole; mere well-meaning incompetence will never give rise to a no-offer from a near 100% firm.

Tl;dr - if you get a no offer from a fancy firm, you've pissed them off, it's personal, and you're not negotiating anything.

How do you know it's not for reasons he/she thinks?

Why are you anonymous?

And this sounds wrong anyways. You're an idiot.

This is anonymous because I'm basing this off of my experience at my firm (NYC, V30) where I help with recruiting. If its wrong, its certainly how we and our peer firms do business. Maybe Vinson & Elkins does it differently down in Houston, I dunno.

[SA2014]

Every near 100% firm cold offers folks, often 5%+ of the class.

R

[Old Gregg]

This is anonymous because I'm basing this off of my experience at my firm (NYC, V30) where I help with recruiting. If its wrong, its certainly how we and our peer firms do business. Maybe Vinson & Elkins does it differently down in Houston, I dunno.

OK, because we TOTALLY KNEW that you were basing it off of this experience in your initial post. How do you know it's how your "peer firms" do business? How did you go from your experiences at this V30 "where [you] help with recruiting" to being able to state: "Every near 100% firm cold offers folks, often 5%+ of the class."

But yes, thanks for the charity exception for V&E in Houston. It's totally incomprehensible that other people in this thread might have had contrary experiences at another NYC biglaw firm (including myself...).

Every near 100% firm cold offers folks, often 5%+ of the class.

Really?? In NYC? 5%?? OMG, OMG.

Don't pay attention to him. He's an idiot.

[Anonymous User]

Every near 100% firm cold offers folks, often 5%+ of the class.

Really?? In NYC? 5%?? OMG, OMG.

There are degrees of cold offer. 5% includes all of them.

There's cold offer like "you can't come back, but you can tell people you have an offer", which is pretty rare; not as rare as no offers, but rare.

But there's chilly offers as well. "We dont think you're a great fit here, but you're welcome to come back next fall". That's an offer you can accept, but you're going to be getting pretty much all doc review / diligence.

Is that a cold offer? I dont know. But there are definitely a small piece of a summer class that a firm would really rather have go elsewhere and to whom that is conveyed when the offer is extended. Granted that my sample size is only three firms, but thats who I've seen it done and I think its really common.

If you dont care whether they really want you there before pushing you out after a year or two, I guess a chilly offer is still an OFFER. But its a handshake with a very limp wrist.

[Anonymous User]

This is anonymous because I'm basing this off of my experience at my firm (NYC, V30) where I help with recruiting. If its wrong, its certainly how we and our peer firms do business. Maybe Vinson & Elkins does it differently down in Houston, I dunno.

OK, because we TOTALLY KNEW that you were basing it off of this experience in your initial post. How do you know it's how your "peer firms" do business? How did you go from your experiences at this V30 "where [you] help with recruiting" to being able to state: "Every near 100% firm cold offers folks, often 5%+ of the class."

But yes, thanks for the charity exception for V&E in Houston. It's totally incomprehensible that other people in this thread might have had contrary experiences at another NYC biglaw firm (including myself...).

Every near 100% firm cold offers folks, often 5%+ of the class.

Really?? In NYC? 5%?? OMG, OMG.

Don't pay attention to him. He's an idiot.

Oh, cute, its a first year pretending he knows everything. Quaint.

Look, even if your firm is a special flower that doesn't try to give offers they dont want accepted, that there are a bunch of other firms that don't is enough to give everyone pause because how can they tell which type of firm theirs is?

You're too young to remember this, but it was a big deal for the class of 2010 and, to a lesser degree, 2011. All the folks who got the "er, well, ok, offer" talk ended up furloughed at the firms who furloughed, and a bunch of them never even made it to day 1. I think that in a growing legal economy you're probably better off with a cold or chilly offer because the firm will take the bodies and throw them on M&A diligence or something, but if things get bad, they start lopping those folks off REAL quick.

[Old Gregg]

Oh, cute, its a first year pretending he knows everything. Quaint.

LOL.

[bjsesq]

Oh, cute, its a first year pretending he knows everything. Quaint.

He's not a first year, dude.

[Old Gregg]

Look, even if your firm is a special flower that doesn't try to give offers they dont want accepted, that there are a bunch of other firms that don't is enough to give everyone pause because how can they tell which type of firm theirs is?

You're somehow going from your tangential experience at one firm to a "bunch of firms." That's what's giving me pause about your fear-mongering and auto-fellatio posts ITT.

You're too young to remember this, but it was a big deal for the class of 2010 and, to a lesser degree, 2011. All the folks who got the "er, well, ok, offer" talk ended up furloughed at the firms who furloughed, and a bunch of them never even made it to day 1. I think that in a growing legal economy you're probably better off with a cold or chilly offer because the firm will take the bodies and throw them on M&A diligence or something, but if things get bad, they start lopping those folks off REAL quick.

I'm shocked you didn't receive a cold offer because you're an absolute piece of shit to communicate with. Did it ever occur to you that cold offers were commonplace for the class of 2010 (i.e., 2009 summers) because of unique economic circumstances taking place right when firms were making offers? Did it ever occur to you that for the class of 2011 (i.e., 2010 summers), summers received cold offers because a lot of firms found out they didn't no-offer enough the previous summer and therefore had a big backlog of summer associates joining in?

How are any of these factors still present today? How can you make these conclusions about the state of giving permanent offers today?

I'm glad to hear your "wisdom" about offers and shit. But really, it seems like "wisdom" applicable to your firm and your firm only (as it is for most people), and applicable to a time period that has long since expired. I'm not saying we're in boom times, but this isn't 2008/2009. And if your firm is still doing this shit today, you should say what it is so we can proceed to take a shit on it and everyone in this forum can avoid it.

Summer associates ITT, you may proceed to unclench your buttcheeks.

[Danger Zone]

So I can megapoast during work hours without fear or shame?

Or at least not any more shame than I typically feel about being a TLSer

[09042014]

Seems like almost everyone goes back to their Summer firm, get no offered, or takes a clerkship. I don't really see a lot of room for 5% cold offers.

I've only seen two cases where I'd suspect a cold offer. One, the person said he got an offer but wouldn't take it no matter what cause he hated it. That could be bullshit and he could have gotten cold offered, but he also could have been no offered and just lied about it.

And the second got a clerkship that fell through months later. Her firm told her she couldn't come back until the date the clerkship was supposed to be over. That's a pretty fucking cold offer.

[Anonymous User]

Look, even if your firm is a special flower that doesn't try to give offers they dont want accepted, that there are a bunch of other firms that don't is enough to give everyone pause because how can they tell which type of firm theirs is?

You're somehow going from your tangential experience at one firm to a "bunch of firms." That's what's giving me pause about your fear-mongering and auto-fellatio posts ITT.

You're too young to remember this, but it was a big deal for the class of 2010 and, to a lesser degree, 2011. All the folks who got the "er, well, ok, offer" talk ended up furloughed at the firms who furloughed, and a bunch of them never even made it to day 1. I think that in a growing legal economy you're probably better off with a cold or chilly offer because the firm will take the bodies and throw them on M&A diligence or something, but if things get bad, they start lopping those folks off REAL quick.

I'm shocked you didn't receive a cold offer because you're an absolute piece of shit to communicate with. Did it ever occur to you that cold offers were commonplace for the class of 2010 (i.e., 2009 summers) because of unique economic circumstances taking place right when firms were making offers? Did it ever occur to you that for the class of 2011 (i.e., 2010 summers), summers received cold offers because a lot of firms found out they didn't no-offer enough the previous summer and therefore had a big backlog of summer associates joining in?

How are any of these factors still present today? How can you make these conclusions about the state of giving permanent offers today?

I'm glad to hear your "wisdom" about offers and shit. But really, it seems like "wisdom" applicable to your firm and your firm only (as it is for most people), and applicable to a time period that has long since expired. I'm not saying we're in boom times, but this isn't 2008/2009. And if your firm is still doing this shit today, you should say what it is so we can proceed to take a shit on it and everyone in this forum can avoid it.

Summer associates ITT, you may proceed to unclench your buttcheeks.

I don't think we're as far apart as it seems we are. What it comes down to is the definition of cold offer.

Offers arent as binary as folks make them out to be. Sure there's the "no offer" - the GTFO. But then there are lots of grades of offer enthusiasm ranging from "this is an offer that you really cant accept but you can use to get another job" to "you can accept but we would rather you find another job" to "you can accept and thats fine" to "let us know what we can do to ensure you accept", etc etc.

All offers are better thought of as one way options for the firm to hire you at the end of law school, but some offers are more optional than others. If you get a chilly offer, you should think of your employment position like being in the bottom tranche of an MBS (god, I'm dating myself even more with that reference). If so much as a stiff breeze blows on your firm . . . (or if you make even the smallest mistake once you're there as a "permanent" associate...)

[Anonymous User]

I'm glad to hear your "wisdom" about offers and shit. But really, it seems like "wisdom" applicable to your firm and your firm only (as it is for most people), and applicable to a time period that has long since expired. I'm not saying we're in boom times, but this isn't 2008/2009. And if your firm is still doing this shit today, you should say what it is so we can proceed to take a shit on it and everyone in this forum can avoid it.

Summer associates ITT, you may proceed to unclench your buttcheeks.

Again, you're too young to remember this, but the Class of 2009 thought it wasn't 2009 either, until Lehman failed about 5 weeks after their summers ended.

[Old Gregg]

I'm glad to hear your "wisdom" about offers and shit. But really, it seems like "wisdom" applicable to your firm and your firm only (as it is for most people), and applicable to a time period that has long since expired. I'm not saying we're in boom times, but this isn't 2008/2009. And if your firm is still doing this shit today, you should say what it is so we can proceed to take a shit on it and everyone in this forum can avoid it.

Summer associates ITT, you may proceed to unclench your buttcheeks.

Again, you're too young to remember this, but the Class of 2009 thought it wasn't 2009 either, until Lehman failed about 5 weeks after their summers ended.

You keep saying this even after bjesq corrected you once already. You have no idea what year I am or how old I am (and since I'm not a gigantic loser who feels the need to hide behind the anonymous label to make stupid posts, I am justifiably not interested in revealing that information).

But yes, the circumstances you cite are pretty unique to that cluster of class years. Do you believe a major financial institution in the US will collapse in the next year? If your argument is that firms will return to such practices because the economy is going to shit in the next 12 months, either clearly state your reasons for believing the latter or go to the economy thread in the lounge and post your shit there.

[Anonymous User]

I'm glad to hear your "wisdom" about offers and shit. But really, it seems like "wisdom" applicable to your firm and your firm only (as it is for most people), and applicable to a time period that has long since expired. I'm not saying we're in boom times, but this isn't 2008/2009. And if your firm is still doing this shit today, you should say what it is so we can proceed to take a shit on it and everyone in this forum can avoid it.

Summer associates ITT, you may proceed to unclench your buttcheeks.

Again, you're too young to remember this, but the Class of 2009 thought it wasn't 2009 either, until Lehman failed about 5 weeks after their summers ended.

You keep saying this even after bjesq corrected you once already. You have no idea what year I am or how old I am (and since I'm not a gigantic loser who feels the need to hide behind the anonymous label to make stupid posts, I am justifiably not interested in revealing that information).

But yes, the circumstances you cite are pretty unique to that cluster of class years. Do you believe a major financial institution in the US will collapse in the next year? If your argument is that firms will return to such practices because the economy is going to shit in the next 12 months, either clearly state your reasons for believing the latter or go to the economy thread in the lounge and post your shit there.

If I could call macro like that, I'd be working at Soros and not papering high yield offerings. But certainly, even you can recognize that (a) there are plenty of cold or chilly offers in every summer class, (b) the enthusiasm of your offer directly correlates to how binding it is and (c) if the economy goes south again, even folks with chilly offers may never get to show up for a day of work.

You wont remember this either, but 2008-2010 wasn't the first time IN THE 2000's that a downturn left a bunch of chilly-offered associates out in the cold. Same shit happened in 2001, though its juuust long enough ago that there isn't really a shared memory of that among younger associates and law students. See, e.g., http://www.nytimes.com/2001/11/09/nyreg ... -drop.html, aka the month that S&S really began to publically fall from its pedestal.

[bjsesq]

I'm sure plenty of people remember the dot com burst, dude. I feel like I am being talked to by my grandpa, as he sits me on his knee, musses my hair, and tells me about what things used to be like.

[Old Gregg]

If I could call macro like that, I'd be working at Soros and not papering high yield offerings. But certainly, even you can recognize that (a) there are plenty of cold or chilly offers in every summer class, (b) the enthusiasm of your offer directly correlates to how binding it is and (c) if the economy goes south again, even folks with chilly offers may never get to show up for a day of work.

You wont remember this either, but 2008-2010 wasn't the first time IN THE 2000's that a downturn left a bunch of chilly-offered associates out in the cold. Same shit happened in 2001, though its juuust long enough ago that there isn't really a shared memory of that among younger associates and law students. See, e.g., --LinkRemoved-- ... -drop.html, aka the month that S&S really began to publically fall from its pedestal.

Actually, I do remember this because I did my fucking research back when I was interviewing. Again, that was due to an economic downturn. The fact that attorneys tend to get fucked during economic downturns isn't anything revealing and certainly didn't require working at a V30 helping with recruiting to figure out.

This conversation is stupid. I'm done.