Help Me Understand Cost of Living Forum

[Anonymous User]

Food, high culture, etc are all very meaningful reasons to pick one market over another--in the same way that outdoor activities are as well. NYC biglaw doesn't eat up so much of your life that you can't go out to eat and claiming that it does is just bellyaching. Picking a TTT "city" like Houston over America's only true global city is, IMO, insane unless (a) you have family in Texas, (b) you're infatuated with O&G, or (c) you're a drone who only wants to generate income (but never actually buy anything--Texas' strategy is to ramp up those property taxes to over double what NYC's effective rate is).

For the record if you want to do the money-maximizing strategy, WFH from Wyoming. Low personal income taxes, low property taxes, you don't have to live in a fucking swamp, and you have far better access to nature. Texas is a scam.

I live in NYC and like it here. I just think the “food” stuff is weird. There are way more restaurants here than any one person, especially a biglaw associate, could ever have the time or money to visit. So while I have no interest in living in Houston, I’m sure the food is fine. The bigger issue is needing to buy a car and drive everywhere

If you're focused on food, you can narrow it down substantially. No need to hit up just any restaurant, you can focus on the hip, up-and coming ones (or the recent openings, etc.). It's like art shows--NYC has a huge number and most aren't worth your time, but the ones that are very much are and the trick is being discerning enough to pick out the good ones from the bad or to focus on where the art world is moving.

And yeah re: cars, see my point earlier about Houston (and Dallas, and LA) being glorified suburbs. NYC you truly are in a city where you do not need a car. SF/Chicago/DC are all debatable if you need a car for the full experience (having lived in all three I think there's enough to do a short distance from the city that SF and DC it makes more sense than Chicago).

Edit: also NYC is absolutely the only true global city in the United States and is on par with London/Singapore/etc. Houston's not even close to that.

Love living in Houston & not having to run into many people with your snobby-like behavior. I'll enjoy my "TTT" city that apparently has garbage food (tell me you dont know the US food scene without telling me you don't know).

Go astros

I never said Houston has garbage food, just that its food scene isn’t as good as New York’s. Having a few top-tier restaurants is good, but it’s simply not at the same level as NYC or Chicago.

As far as its status as a TTT city goes, I stand by that, as I stand by calling any car-dependent city TTT. And I like cars! Car-first infrastructure is just massively detrimental to urban life and places like where I grew up, or places like Houston/Dallas/LA/etc. have chosen to demolish their vibrant urban fabrics with overpasses and spaghetti bowls in service to suburban drivers. NYC/SF/Chicago/DC/etc are far less car-dependent and therefore frankly better at being cities.

That’s not to say NYC is perfect. I wish personal vehicles were outright banned from Manhattan, but the driver lobby just has too much power. Maybe by 2030, but probably not.

Get out of NYC for once and you'll realize NYC isn't exactly that special when it comes to world class food. But then again, I'm able to eat every cuisine and don't just eat at whatever fancy upper-class white person establishment you're dining at night after night.

No problem with cars. Call it what it is, Houston isn't a city you like because it doesn't fit your needs. I much prefer my space, freedom, being able to build wealth easier, and overall attitudes of the people that live here much more than NYC.

Let's stop talking hypotheticals -- how many years out are you, what was your net worth on your first day of biglaw, and what's your net worth now?

Not the same person, but after my first year in Houston BigLaw I saved/invested $79k. Getting ready to buy a 5BR house 20 minutes from the office. Ate plenty of A5 Wagyu steak and sushi shipped overnight from Japan, on the firm’s dime lol.

[thisismytlsuername]

Let's stop talking hypotheticals -- how many years out are you, what was your net worth on your first day of biglaw, and what's your net worth now?

Not the same person, but after my first year in Houston BigLaw I saved/invested $79k. Getting ready to buy a 5BR house 20 minutes from the office. Ate plenty of A5 Wagyu steak and sushi shipped overnight from Japan, on the firm’s dime lol.

Yikes, I can't imagine the rice was very good after being shipped overnight.

So you saved $6.5k/month. A first year in NYC nets around $13k/month (listing the bonus as salary, according to ADP's calculator), so would have to live on a measly $6.5k/month to match you. What a brutal life.

Anyway, I'm off to see a matinee of a Tony-award winning musical. Going to have a lovely ~45 minute walk there on this perfect fall day. Still trying to decide what to do tonight -- maybe a Michelin-starred dinner, or perhaps go to a show at one of the ten or so live music venues within a 20 minute walk from my apartment.

Congrats on your new McMansion!

[Res Ipsa Loquitter]

Let's stop talking hypotheticals -- how many years out are you, what was your net worth on your first day of biglaw, and what's your net worth now?

Not the same person, but after my first year in Houston BigLaw I saved/invested $79k. Getting ready to buy a 5BR house 20 minutes from the office. Ate plenty of A5 Wagyu steak and sushi shipped overnight from Japan, on the firm’s dime lol.

Yikes, I can't imagine the rice was very good after being shipped overnight.

So you saved $6.5k/month. A first year in NYC nets around $13k/month (listing the bonus as salary, according to ADP's calculator), so would have to live on a measly $6.5k/month to match you. What a brutal life.

Anyway, I'm off to see a matinee of a Tony-award winning musical. Going to have a lovely ~45 minute walk there on this perfect fall day. Still trying to decide what to do tonight -- maybe a Michelin-starred dinner, or perhaps go to a show at one of the ten or so live music venues within a 20 minute walk from my apartment.

Congrats on your new McMansion!

First years in NYC net around $11K if they (1) aren’t paying back an advance and (2) don’t contribute to retirement. Annualizing the bonus brings you to $12K at most, but is dumb because most firms outside the v10 have hours requirements that most first years will miss.

As for Broadway shows and Michelin starred restaurants, they could afford these things on occasion but not every day, and maybe not even once a week if they have large loans.

[Anonymous User]

Let's stop talking hypotheticals -- how many years out are you, what was your net worth on your first day of biglaw, and what's your net worth now?

Not the same person, but after my first year in Houston BigLaw I saved/invested $79k. Getting ready to buy a 5BR house 20 minutes from the office. Ate plenty of A5 Wagyu steak and sushi shipped overnight from Japan, on the firm’s dime lol.

Yikes, I can't imagine the rice was very good after being shipped overnight.

So you saved $6.5k/month. A first year in NYC nets around $13k/month (listing the bonus as salary, according to ADP's calculator), so would have to live on a measly $6.5k/month to match you. What a brutal life.

Anyway, I'm off to see a matinee of a Tony-award winning musical. Going to have a lovely ~45 minute walk there on this perfect fall day. Still trying to decide what to do tonight -- maybe a Michelin-starred dinner, or perhaps go to a show at one of the ten or so live music venues within a 20 minute walk from my apartment.

Congrats on your new McMansion!

First years in NYC net around $11K if they (1) aren’t paying back an advance and (2) don’t contribute to retirement. Annualizing the bonus brings you to $12K at most, but is dumb because most firms outside the v10 have hours requirements that most first years will miss.

As for Broadway shows and Michelin starred restaurants, they could afford these things on occasion but not every day, and maybe not even once a week if they have large loans.

Houston person above. I haven’t received my first year bonus yet so that wasn’t included. I also should have mentioned that I contribute the max to my 401k and didn’t include that in the $79k, so my total savings for the first year is actually $111,500 (last 12 months, not including November and December that haven’t happened yet, but including post-tax bonus I will receive since this person did so for NYC) if you add those back in.

If we’re including bonus and 401k, then my actual savings are $9,291/month for the first 12 months.

As a former New Yorker myself, I understand the instinct to shit on other cities and be snarky as a coping mechanism, but one day you’ll grow out of it and understand how silly it sounds.

[Robot]

Wtf is this thread you all look ridiculous

[Anonymous User]

Let's stop talking hypotheticals -- how many years out are you, what was your net worth on your first day of biglaw, and what's your net worth now?

Not the same person, but after my first year in Houston BigLaw I saved/invested $79k. Getting ready to buy a 5BR house 20 minutes from the office. Ate plenty of A5 Wagyu steak and sushi shipped overnight from Japan, on the firm’s dime lol.

Yikes, I can't imagine the rice was very good after being shipped overnight.

So you saved $6.5k/month. A first year in NYC nets around $13k/month (listing the bonus as salary, according to ADP's calculator), so would have to live on a measly $6.5k/month to match you. What a brutal life.

Anyway, I'm off to see a matinee of a Tony-award winning musical. Going to have a lovely ~45 minute walk there on this perfect fall day. Still trying to decide what to do tonight -- maybe a Michelin-starred dinner, or perhaps go to a show at one of the ten or so live music venues within a 20 minute walk from my apartment.

Congrats on your new McMansion!

Different Houston guy from the one who saved ~79k.

But god your whole attitude is why I LOVE living in Texas. You sound insufferable. Actually going and seeing a musical makes me want to barf. You enjoy your musical, I'll enjoy taking my dogs to some of the country land I own this weekend.

I guess I wouldnt mind living in NYC for the simple fact how easy it would be to clean up. Inappropriate personal insult deleted by moderator.

[Chubbyleaous]

I feel your pain

[Anonymous User]

Let's stop talking hypotheticals -- how many years out are you, what was your net worth on your first day of biglaw, and what's your net worth now?

Not the same person, but after my first year in Houston BigLaw I saved/invested $79k. Getting ready to buy a 5BR house 20 minutes from the office. Ate plenty of A5 Wagyu steak and sushi shipped overnight from Japan, on the firm’s dime lol.

Yikes, I can't imagine the rice was very good after being shipped overnight.

So you saved $6.5k/month. A first year in NYC nets around $13k/month (listing the bonus as salary, according to ADP's calculator), so would have to live on a measly $6.5k/month to match you. What a brutal life.

Anyway, I'm off to see a matinee of a Tony-award winning musical. Going to have a lovely ~45 minute walk there on this perfect fall day. Still trying to decide what to do tonight -- maybe a Michelin-starred dinner, or perhaps go to a show at one of the ten or so live music venues within a 20 minute walk from my apartment.

Congrats on your new McMansion!

My take-home is a little over 11k I think. Maybe I'm overpaying in taxes, something like 37%?

[Anonymous User]

One benefit to living in Houston over New York is being able to watch World Series baseball not far from home. Sure, Philadelphia isn't a far train ride from New York, but it's still 90 minutes each way.

[nealric]

Deleted the troll comment and resulting fallout. Please do not feed the trolls.

[Anonymous User]

Great thread boys.

I refuse to believe I even have to pay $3,000. If I pay $2,000 and a roommate pays $1,000 there must be 1-bedrooms in Manhattan for $3,000.

[Anonymous User]

Weird thread. NYC and Houston are both great cities. If I were in my 20s and single, I’d be living in NYC no question (although Houston still has lots to do in midtown etc). But I’m in my 30s with kids, so Houston is a better fit. I was in NYC recently and loved the vibe post Covid. But it goes without saying that Houston is significantly more affordable than NYC. I’m a senior associate with a wife who stays home with our kids. We live really well and I’ve already saved millions.

I recently ate at a three star Michelin restaurant in NYC and it was amazing. But overall the Houston food scene is one of the best in the world when taking into account both quality and diversity. You can pretty much walk into any shop without an ounce of research and it’s a 7/10 minimum. NYC has great food too, but you have to be willing to pay or know the right spots.

[Anonymous User]

If you want to live the NYC lifestyle, the monthly spending to get to $100k ($8333/mo, assuming we're not including savings, taxes, insurance, etc.) isn't that outlandish. I don't mean to say you should spend all this - I don't even come close. But lots of my NYC biglaw friends do and then wonder why they aren't saving as much:
- $500 fancy meals with friends 1x/week (double if you pay for an SO)
- $400 groceries
- $400 cleaning service
- $300 therapy
- $300 shopping for yourself (clothes, electronics, Amazon)
- $300 dry cleaning/laundry
- $200 Ubers
- $150 good coffee/breakfast for workdays

These are all outlandish as far as normal spending goes. I mean, anyone can buy a Birkin and then claim that spending a lot of money is easy. A plurality of Americans brew coffee at home; $150 for "good coffee/breakfast" is ridiculous. $400 for groceries is also ridiculous, as is paying $125 once a week for one meal.

[Res Ipsa Loquitter]

If you want to live the NYC lifestyle, the monthly spending to get to $100k ($8333/mo, assuming we're not including savings, taxes, insurance, etc.) isn't that outlandish. I don't mean to say you should spend all this - I don't even come close. But lots of my NYC biglaw friends do and then wonder why they aren't saving as much:
- $500 fancy meals with friends 1x/week (double if you pay for an SO)
- $400 groceries
- $400 cleaning service
- $300 therapy
- $300 shopping for yourself (clothes, electronics, Amazon)
- $300 dry cleaning/laundry
- $200 Ubers
- $150 good coffee/breakfast for workdays

These are all outlandish as far as normal spending goes. I mean, anyone can buy a Birkin and then claim that spending a lot of money is easy. A plurality of Americans brew coffee at home; $150 for "good coffee/breakfast" is ridiculous. $400 for groceries is also ridiculous, as is paying $125 once a week for one meal.

No, none of those figures are ridiculous in NYC. $125 for a meal once a week is normal for a professional. Anyone who thinks those numbers are high is poor here.

[nixy]

If you want to live the NYC lifestyle, the monthly spending to get to $100k ($8333/mo, assuming we're not including savings, taxes, insurance, etc.) isn't that outlandish. I don't mean to say you should spend all this - I don't even come close. But lots of my NYC biglaw friends do and then wonder why they aren't saving as much:
- $500 fancy meals with friends 1x/week (double if you pay for an SO)
- $400 groceries
- $400 cleaning service
- $300 therapy
- $300 shopping for yourself (clothes, electronics, Amazon)
- $300 dry cleaning/laundry
- $200 Ubers
- $150 good coffee/breakfast for workdays

These are all outlandish as far as normal spending goes. I mean, anyone can buy a Birkin and then claim that spending a lot of money is easy. A plurality of Americans brew coffee at home; $150 for "good coffee/breakfast" is ridiculous. $400 for groceries is also ridiculous, as is paying $125 once a week for one meal.

Eh, it’s not necessary spending, but it’s not Birkin levels of extravagance. $125 for dinner isn’t hard in NY, especially if you drink. $150/mo on coffee is like $3.75 every work day - I bet a lot of people not in NYC go to Starbucks daily. Ubers and dry cleaning/laundry are different in a city where you don’t own a car and you may not have laundry in your building.

You absolutely don’t have to spend that much, but I’ve lived in cities where it’s actually hard to spend that much, and that’s just not the case in NYC (especially if you hang out with a lot of biglaw or comparably paid people). We’re also not talking about a choice between that budget and survival, just that budget and saving more out of your salary.

[Anonymous User]

If you want to live the NYC lifestyle, the monthly spending to get to $100k ($8333/mo, assuming we're not including savings, taxes, insurance, etc.) isn't that outlandish. I don't mean to say you should spend all this - I don't even come close. But lots of my NYC biglaw friends do and then wonder why they aren't saving as much:
- $500 fancy meals with friends 1x/week (double if you pay for an SO)
- $400 groceries
- $400 cleaning service
- $300 therapy
- $300 shopping for yourself (clothes, electronics, Amazon)
- $300 dry cleaning/laundry
- $200 Ubers
- $150 good coffee/breakfast for workdays

These are all outlandish as far as normal spending goes. I mean, anyone can buy a Birkin and then claim that spending a lot of money is easy. A plurality of Americans brew coffee at home; $150 for "good coffee/breakfast" is ridiculous. $400 for groceries is also ridiculous, as is paying $125 once a week for one meal.

Eh, it’s not necessary spending, but it’s not Birkin levels of extravagance. $125 for dinner isn’t hard in NY, especially if you drink. $150/mo on coffee is like $3.75 every work day - I bet a lot of people not in NYC go to Starbucks daily. Ubers and dry cleaning/laundry are different in a city where you don’t own a car and you may not have laundry in your building.

You absolutely don’t have to spend that much, but I’ve lived in cities where it’s actually hard to spend that much, and that’s just not the case in NYC (especially if you hang out with a lot of biglaw or comparably paid people). We’re also not talking about a choice between that budget and survival, just that budget and saving more out of your salary.

I was the OP on the budget and nixy hit the nail on the head. There's nothing necessary about these numbers, but also nothing surprising about them in NYC for a biglaw type with biglaw type friends. If you look at a random sampling of biglaw juniors I suspect it would be easy to find ones that spend these amounts on a subset of these categories (e.g., their vice might be shopping or fancy meals, but not both), but few actually spend this much on all of them.

I'd hate for this to devolve into another "what's rich" thread, but no one particular item screams overspending in NYC. It's just an amalgamation of small conveniences (laundry, cleaning) and small luxuries (coffee, building a wardrobe of name brand clothes) that together make for a heck of an annual budget.

[nixy]

I'd hate for this to devolve into another "what's rich" thread, but no one particular item screams overspending in NYC. It's just an amalgamation of small conveniences (laundry, cleaning) and small luxuries (coffee, building a wardrobe of name brand clothes) that together make for a heck of an annual budget.

I will just add none of it screams overspending *on a big law salary.* Sure, it would be overspending for someone making $50k. But overspending isn't some absolute thing - it's relative to your income and financial goals. I get that part of the discussion is how much you can save in NYC v. elsewhere so I'm not saying someone who can't save what they'd like because they're following something like budget outlined above is forced to do so - of course there are things they could cut to save more. But the outlined budget was addressing the original question about cost of living, not the debate about where to live to save the most.

[thisismytlsuername]

That budget is just close enough to realistic to be passable, while also being way bigger than it needs to be.

The restaurants are the most realistic part! Especially if you're including booze/bars in there. But $400 for cleaning, $300 for laundry, $200 for ubers, and $150 for coffee are all egregiously inflated and wildly unnecessary.

[Anonymous User]

That budget is just close enough to realistic to be passable, while also being way bigger than it needs to be.

The restaurants are the most realistic part! Especially if you're including booze/bars in there. But $400 for cleaning, $300 for laundry, $200 for ubers, and $150 for coffee are all egregiously inflated and wildly unnecessary.

I spend $100 for each cleaning session in a secondary market. How much is it in NY? I don't think paying for weekly housekeeping is egregious. Admittedly, I only have it done every other week.

[Anonymous User]

That budget is just close enough to realistic to be passable, while also being way bigger than it needs to be.

The restaurants are the most realistic part! Especially if you're including booze/bars in there. But $400 for cleaning, $300 for laundry, $200 for ubers, and $150 for coffee are all egregiously inflated and wildly unnecessary.

I spend $100 for each cleaning session in a secondary market. How much is it in NY? I don't think paying for weekly housekeeping is egregious. Admittedly, I only have it done every other week.

Is $300 for laundry service (dry cleaning, linens, other) really that over the top? I'm always shocked at how low my dry cleaning bill is as compared to my wife's (dresses/blouses are way more expensive than my shirts/pants.

[nixy]

That budget is just close enough to realistic to be passable, while also being way bigger than it needs to be.

The restaurants are the most realistic part! Especially if you're including booze/bars in there. But $400 for cleaning, $300 for laundry, $200 for ubers, and $150 for coffee are all egregiously inflated and wildly unnecessary.

I don’t even live in NYC but don’t think that buying a latte from Starbucks each work day is outrageously extravagant, and that’s going to be $150+ a month. (Yes, yes, yes, Starbucks is bad coffee, you can brew your own at home, etc etc. But going to get a coffee as a break from your work day is really nice, and is like the least of the extravagances here.)

But the thing is, obviously none of these things are necessary, but once you start them, and you *can* afford them, it’s easy to get into the habit. Is $50/week on Ubers really extravagant? How many rides is that? It’s doubtless more expensive than the subway, but also more convenient and pleasant. It’s obviously an easy way to save money if you’re actively trying, but it’s also an easy way to spend money if you live in NYC (or other major metro where cars are impractical).

The point isn’t that anyone who works biglaw in NYC has to spend this money; the point is that they can, effortlessly, without feeling like it’s a lot of money. It’s not like dropping a ton of money in one go like buying a fancy watch or car or something. So if someone’s asking about cost of living in NYC biglaw, I don’t think it’s misleading to give examples of easy ways to spend money, especially that are sort of NYC-specific (laundry, Ubers) or biglaw specific (cleaning service, dry cleaning to some extent). That’s not the same as identifying the ideal budget or the minimum you need to spend.

(I also agree with the original poster that most people won’t spend the max on all these categories.)

ETA: yeah, women’s dry cleaning is ridiculous.

[thisismytlsuername]

I don't understand how this budget is much different for non-NYC folks, then.

Add $800 for a car payment/insurance/gas (but keep the Ubers because you shouldn't drive drunk), decrease laundry (but you still need dry cleaning) and decrease everything else a bit for cost of living. Same result.

[Anonymous User]

I don't understand how this budget is much different for non-NYC folks, then.

Add $800 for a car payment/insurance/gas (but keep the Ubers because you shouldn't drive drunk), decrease laundry (but you still need dry cleaning) and decrease everything else a bit for cost of living. Same result.

You'd pay $800 less for rent for the same apartment, easy, so that alone offsets the additional cost of a car. Thus, the lower cost of pretty much everything else (food, entertainment, etc.) is straight cash in your pocket. Plus you don't have to pay a city tax. For example, DC first years pocket an extra $5k alone on lower taxes.

[thisismytlsuername]

I don't understand how this budget is much different for non-NYC folks, then.

Add $800 for a car payment/insurance/gas (but keep the Ubers because you shouldn't drive drunk), decrease laundry (but you still need dry cleaning) and decrease everything else a bit for cost of living. Same result.

You'd pay $800 less for rent for the same apartment, easy, so that alone offsets the additional cost of a car. Thus, the lower cost of pretty much everything else (food, entertainment, etc.) is straight cash in your pocket. Plus you don't have to pay a city tax. For example, DC first years pocket an extra $5k alone on lower taxes.

Sure, for the "same apartment", but I didn't pay more than $3k/month in rent until I was an 8th year. And I lived in fine apartments in cool neighborhoods.

[nixy]

If you want to drag this back to a “NYC v Texas” argument, you’re always going to lose on housing. You can pay significantly less in Texas. A lot of people argue that you get more/better in TX for the cost of what you’d pay in NY, which is probably true, but you can also just pay a lot less. (Also your rent 8 years ago isn’t a great comparison for today.)