Class of 2023 lucked out Forum

[Anonymous User]

I don't want to drag the drama into here more than necessary and this is already a tangent to a tangent so I'll make one comment and drop out of the thread. But I disagree that the drama can be pinned on the people going to the press. The drama is the sociopathic behavior to begin with. It's just more visible at Yale because it gets in the press.

[Anonymous User]

Lateral here making the switch from a big Bk/RX practice to an equally large finance practice. At the risk of outing the firm, it's one of the rare instances where the finance practice is the financial engine of the firm vs the other deal practices (M&A etc). I think I'll end up in LevFin with maybe a bit of fund finance and project finance sprinkled in, but having come from Bk/RX (with lots of great experience etc), I've clearly advertised that - should we hit a big recession - I am more than happy to help with DIPs, workouts, and offer any other advice to my new firm's Bk group while learning the ropes on the other financial services.

Hoping this will insulate me from downturns short to mid term - any insights on how this could impact me as a lateral making the switch? This was a calculated risk on my end - while the counter cyclical nature of Bk is fantastic at times, it's not a good long term practice for me, and the exit options are atrocious.

Fwiw to the people considering Bk for its countercyclical advantages, the COVID downturn only gave 4-6 months of insane work to the big debtor side firms. They have since had a nearly 2 year long slowdown, with associates at years 1-3 barely billing 1500/yr, if that. I'd be surprised if this oncoming downturn provides more than another 4-6 months of big Bk work. My instinct is that some of the marquee debtor practices (one in particular with nearly 200 lawyers) have seriously overhired and have bloated bankruptcy groups that they're going to trim in the next year or two. From what I've heard, creditor-side shops have had more consistent work, fwiw.

[Anonymous User]

I don't want to drag the drama into here more than necessary and this is already a tangent to a tangent so I'll make one comment and drop out of the thread. But I disagree that the drama can be pinned on the people going to the press. The drama is the sociopathic behavior to begin with. It's just more visible at Yale because it gets in the press.

Right, the ultimate issue here is people who are terrible human beings. It really has nothing to do with politics, as the vast majority of top law school students are left-leaning. These assholes cloak themselves in leftist ideology because they think that renders all of their actions justifiable. But I don’t agree. These people are just haters and leftism is just their excuse. They are so extreme that they seem close to violence at times.

[cacti_sky]

'22 did not have a strong SA hiring. Chambers (I think?) put out a document that showed about ~600 fewer SA spots for 2022 as compared to 2021 among the top 100 firms. That said, I heard the early 3L job market was unusually strong.

[Anonymous User]

Lateral here making the switch from a big Bk/RX practice to an equally large finance practice. At the risk of outing the firm, it's one of the rare instances where the finance practice is the financial engine of the firm vs the other deal practices (M&A etc). I think I'll end up in LevFin with maybe a bit of fund finance and project finance sprinkled in, but having come from Bk/RX (with lots of great experience etc), I've clearly advertised that - should we hit a big recession - I am more than happy to help with DIPs, workouts, and offer any other advice to my new firm's Bk group while learning the ropes on the other financial services.

Hoping this will insulate me from downturns short to mid term - any insights on how this could impact me as a lateral making the switch? This was a calculated risk on my end - while the counter cyclical nature of Bk is fantastic at times, it's not a good long term practice for me, and the exit options are atrocious.

Fwiw to the people considering Bk for its countercyclical advantages, the COVID downturn only gave 4-6 months of insane work to the big debtor side firms. They have since had a nearly 2 year long slowdown, with associates at years 1-3 barely billing 1500/yr, if that. I'd be surprised if this oncoming downturn provides more than another 4-6 months of big Bk work. My instinct is that some of the marquee debtor practices (one in particular with nearly 200 lawyers) have seriously overhired and have bloated bankruptcy groups that they're going to trim in the next year or two. From what I've heard, creditor-side shops have had more consistent work, fwiw.

Depends on how many creditor reps Milbank gets in the next downturn.

[Anonymous User]

Lateral here making the switch from a big Bk/RX practice to an equally large finance practice. At the risk of outing the firm, it's one of the rare instances where the finance practice is the financial engine of the firm vs the other deal practices (M&A etc). I think I'll end up in LevFin with maybe a bit of fund finance and project finance sprinkled in, but having come from Bk/RX (with lots of great experience etc), I've clearly advertised that - should we hit a big recession - I am more than happy to help with DIPs, workouts, and offer any other advice to my new firm's Bk group while learning the ropes on the other financial services.

Hoping this will insulate me from downturns short to mid term - any insights on how this could impact me as a lateral making the switch? This was a calculated risk on my end - while the counter cyclical nature of Bk is fantastic at times, it's not a good long term practice for me, and the exit options are atrocious.

Fwiw to the people considering Bk for its countercyclical advantages, the COVID downturn only gave 4-6 months of insane work to the big debtor side firms. They have since had a nearly 2 year long slowdown, with associates at years 1-3 barely billing 1500/yr, if that. I'd be surprised if this oncoming downturn provides more than another 4-6 months of big Bk work. My instinct is that some of the marquee debtor practices (one in particular with nearly 200 lawyers) have seriously overhired and have bloated bankruptcy groups that they're going to trim in the next year or two. From what I've heard, creditor-side shops have had more consistent work, fwiw.

Depends on how many creditor reps Milbank gets in the next downturn.

Not Milbank, but actually is a similar dynamic/situation so believe it or not that makes some sense.

[jotarokujo]

Chi is absolutely not going to do better than HLS in biglaw hiring during a downturn.

Gotta be smart enough to not take the bait.

HLS a better brand but they have 3x the kids to place. How do you know for sure they’ll do better in next down cycle

Not so sure about that. Last recession HLS was seen as the degree mill that screwed over many of their students. It’s part of Harvard yes but it’s also harvad’s biggest cash cow. They are not going to cut sizes when recessions hit.

Like I said, the large class size doesn’t help in a downturn. You might even be better off at the lesser-known Chicago. But nobody but the most extreme Yale/Stanford snobs would call Harvard a diploma mill. It’s considered a world class law school.

Most other Harvard schools also consider HLS a diploma mill that dilutes the Harvard brand.

Maybe we know different people, but mostly I hear your view espoused by people that (1) didn’t go to an Ivy undergrad and (2) don’t know many people who did. One of my parents went to Harvard college and the other went to HBS, and I’ve never heard either of them disparage HLS in the way you’re alluding to. None of my friends with Harvard degrees have done that either. Note that I did not attend HLS — I went to an Ivy undergrad (not Harvard) and then a different (non-Harvard) top law school.

What I will concede is that getting into HLS is not as rare / prestigious as many people might think, e.g. if their only context is having seen Legally Blonde. I also think their grading system has cheapened things a bit, as far as some older attorneys and judges are concerned — mainly these are guys (and gals) who miss the shark tank it once was. Calling it a diploma mill is a bridge too far IMO, though.

agreed i don't think HLS being a bit less prestigious then yls or sls makes HLS less prestigious than harvard college. that just means YLS and SLS are bit more prestigious than harvard college

[Anonymous User]

I don't want to drag the drama into here more than necessary and this is already a tangent to a tangent so I'll make one comment and drop out of the thread. But I disagree that the drama can be pinned on the people going to the press. The drama is the sociopathic behavior to begin with. It's just more visible at Yale because it gets in the press.

Right, the ultimate issue here is people who are terrible human beings. It really has nothing to do with politics, as the vast majority of top law school students are left-leaning. These assholes cloak themselves in leftist ideology because they think that renders all of their actions justifiable. But I don’t agree. These people are just haters and leftism is just their excuse. They are so extreme that they seem close to violence at times.

This seems exactly right from my vantage point (lower T14, and I would consider a significant portion of the ‘activists’ in my class unrepentantly evil).

[Anonymous User]

I don't want to drag the drama into here more than necessary and this is already a tangent to a tangent so I'll make one comment and drop out of the thread. But I disagree that the drama can be pinned on the people going to the press. The drama is the sociopathic behavior to begin with. It's just more visible at Yale because it gets in the press.

Right, the ultimate issue here is people who are terrible human beings. It really has nothing to do with politics, as the vast majority of top law school students are left-leaning. These assholes cloak themselves in leftist ideology because they think that renders all of their actions justifiable. But I don’t agree. These people are just haters and leftism is just their excuse. They are so extreme that they seem close to violence at times.

This seems exactly right from my vantage point (lower T14, and I would consider a significant portion of the ‘activists’ in my class unrepentantly evil).

Same poster here you quoted. Think it’s worth adding that political extremism is a problem on both sides of the spectrum — we just saw a horrendous example of that in Buffalo NY. But in the context of top law schools like Yale, I think leftist extremism is the more salient risk.

The key observation I make is that violent extremists don’t really have any beliefs. They just like attacking other people, and they find a variety of rationalizations for engaging in that behavior. The biggest “anti-racist” I knew in law school didn’t even pay attention when real-life black people spoke — she acted like they weren’t even there. Seems her empathy only applied to theoretical black people who were, you know, far away from her.

[glitched]

I don't want to drag the drama into here more than necessary and this is already a tangent to a tangent so I'll make one comment and drop out of the thread. But I disagree that the drama can be pinned on the people going to the press. The drama is the sociopathic behavior to begin with. It's just more visible at Yale because it gets in the press.

Right, the ultimate issue here is people who are terrible human beings. It really has nothing to do with politics, as the vast majority of top law school students are left-leaning. These assholes cloak themselves in leftist ideology because they think that renders all of their actions justifiable. But I don’t agree. These people are just haters and leftism is just their excuse. They are so extreme that they seem close to violence at times.

This seems exactly right from my vantage point (lower T14, and I would consider a significant portion of the ‘activists’ in my class unrepentantly evil).

Same poster here you quoted. Think it’s worth adding that political extremism is a problem on both sides of the spectrum — we just saw a horrendous example of that in Buffalo NY. But in the context of top law schools like Yale, I think leftist extremism is the more salient risk.

The key observation I make is that violent extremists don’t really have any beliefs. They just like attacking other people, and they find a variety of rationalizations for engaging in that behavior. The biggest “anti-racist” I knew in law school didn’t even pay attention when real-life black people spoke — she acted like they weren’t even there. Seems her empathy only applied to theoretical black people who were, you know, far away from her.

Wtf is going on in here.

Edit: This post is wild. So awful.

[Anonymous User]

I don't want to drag the drama into here more than necessary and this is already a tangent to a tangent so I'll make one comment and drop out of the thread. But I disagree that the drama can be pinned on the people going to the press. The drama is the sociopathic behavior to begin with. It's just more visible at Yale because it gets in the press.

Right, the ultimate issue here is people who are terrible human beings. It really has nothing to do with politics, as the vast majority of top law school students are left-leaning. These assholes cloak themselves in leftist ideology because they think that renders all of their actions justifiable. But I don’t agree. These people are just haters and leftism is just their excuse. They are so extreme that they seem close to violence at times.

This seems exactly right from my vantage point (lower T14, and I would consider a significant portion of the ‘activists’ in my class unrepentantly evil).

Same poster here you quoted. Think it’s worth adding that political extremism is a problem on both sides of the spectrum — we just saw a horrendous example of that in Buffalo NY. But in the context of top law schools like Yale, I think leftist extremism is the more salient risk.

The key observation I make is that violent extremists don’t really have any beliefs. They just like attacking other people, and they find a variety of rationalizations for engaging in that behavior. The biggest “anti-racist” I knew in law school didn’t even pay attention when real-life black people spoke — she acted like they weren’t even there. Seems her empathy only applied to theoretical black people who were, you know, far away from her.

Wtf is going on in here.

Edit: This post is wild. So awful.

Yeah that dude must be fresh out of UChicago tf

But in all seriousness that is an absolutely insane post - I'm not sure if this thread was ever serious but it would be cool if we could go back to talking about the relative prospects of recent graduate classes.

[Anonymous User]

I don't want to drag the drama into here more than necessary and this is already a tangent to a tangent so I'll make one comment and drop out of the thread. But I disagree that the drama can be pinned on the people going to the press. The drama is the sociopathic behavior to begin with. It's just more visible at Yale because it gets in the press.

Right, the ultimate issue here is people who are terrible human beings. It really has nothing to do with politics, as the vast majority of top law school students are left-leaning. These assholes cloak themselves in leftist ideology because they think that renders all of their actions justifiable. But I don’t agree. These people are just haters and leftism is just their excuse. They are so extreme that they seem close to violence at times.

This seems exactly right from my vantage point (lower T14, and I would consider a significant portion of the ‘activists’ in my class unrepentantly evil).

Same poster here you quoted. Think it’s worth adding that political extremism is a problem on both sides of the spectrum — we just saw a horrendous example of that in Buffalo NY. But in the context of top law schools like Yale, I think leftist extremism is the more salient risk.

The key observation I make is that violent extremists don’t really have any beliefs. They just like attacking other people, and they find a variety of rationalizations for engaging in that behavior. The biggest “anti-racist” I knew in law school didn’t even pay attention when real-life black people spoke — she acted like they weren’t even there. Seems her empathy only applied to theoretical black people who were, you know, far away from her.

Wtf is going on in here.

Edit: This post is wild. So awful.

Didn’t some top law school grads throw Molotov cocktails the other summer? That’s violence, right? If you don’t like a post, then debate it on its merits or ignore it. Calling stuff “wild” and “awful” is not a discussion

[Anonymous User]

I don't want to drag the drama into here more than necessary and this is already a tangent to a tangent so I'll make one comment and drop out of the thread. But I disagree that the drama can be pinned on the people going to the press. The drama is the sociopathic behavior to begin with. It's just more visible at Yale because it gets in the press.

Right, the ultimate issue here is people who are terrible human beings. It really has nothing to do with politics, as the vast majority of top law school students are left-leaning. These assholes cloak themselves in leftist ideology because they think that renders all of their actions justifiable. But I don’t agree. These people are just haters and leftism is just their excuse. They are so extreme that they seem close to violence at times.

This seems exactly right from my vantage point (lower T14, and I would consider a significant portion of the ‘activists’ in my class unrepentantly evil).

Same poster here you quoted. Think it’s worth adding that political extremism is a problem on both sides of the spectrum — we just saw a horrendous example of that in Buffalo NY. But in the context of top law schools like Yale, I think leftist extremism is the more salient risk.

The key observation I make is that violent extremists don’t really have any beliefs. They just like attacking other people, and they find a variety of rationalizations for engaging in that behavior. The biggest “anti-racist” I knew in law school didn’t even pay attention when real-life black people spoke — she acted like they weren’t even there. Seems her empathy only applied to theoretical black people who were, you know, far away from her.

Wtf is going on in here.

Edit: This post is wild. So awful.

Didn’t some top law school grads throw Molotov cocktails the other summer? That’s violence, right? If you don’t like a post, then debate it on its merits or ignore it. Calling stuff “wild” and “awful” is not a discussion

One went to Fordham, and they were both in their 30s, so not recent grads. Also imagine comparing the murder of 10 people for racist reasons to throwing a molotov cocktail into an empty police car. Sure, lots of leftists are extreme, but they aren't murdering anyone, nor do they have an entire political party apparatus constantly running cover for them.

[Anonymous User]

Same poster here you quoted. Think it’s worth adding that political extremism is a problem on both sides of the spectrum — we just saw a horrendous example of that in Buffalo NY. But in the context of top law schools like Yale, I think leftist extremism is the more salient risk.

The key observation I make is that violent extremists don’t really have any beliefs. They just like attacking other people, and they find a variety of rationalizations for engaging in that behavior. The biggest “anti-racist” I knew in law school didn’t even pay attention when real-life black people spoke — she acted like they weren’t even there. Seems her empathy only applied to theoretical black people who were, you know, far away from her.

Yes, both sides are basically the same, as evidenced by your cherry picked examples of a person murdering 10 people for being black and a person being perceived as acting like they are treating someone as not even being there. This isn't even UChi - this is TTTT

[Anonymous User]

Chi is absolutely not going to do better than HLS in biglaw hiring during a downturn.

Gotta be smart enough to not take the bait.

HLS a better brand but they have 3x the kids to place. How do you know for sure they’ll do better in next down cycle

Not so sure about that. Last recession HLS was seen as the degree mill that screwed over many of their students. It’s part of Harvard yes but it’s also harvad’s biggest cash cow. They are not going to cut sizes when recessions hit.

Like I said, the large class size doesn’t help in a downturn. You might even be better off at the lesser-known Chicago. But nobody but the most extreme Yale/Stanford snobs would call Harvard a diploma mill. It’s considered a world class law school.

Most other Harvard schools also consider HLS a diploma mill that dilutes the Harvard brand.

as someone with first-hand knowledge, this is false.

Agree. If any grad school at Harvard gets the side eye from the others it's HBS because everyone knows business school is not about academics so they're seen as bros with connections, not any real smarts. To the extent people from GSAS, HKS, HDS, GSE or the Med school think about HLS at all, it's that they have a nice(ish) corner of the campus. I don't know what College kids thought because I didn't engage with them as peers so maybe they think HLS is a dumpster fire, but if so, who cares? They're dumb college kids.

[nealric]

I don't think the continued existence of this thread is benefitting anybody. Time to lock.