What firm is considered the hardest to get into? Forum

[Anonymous User]

The munger dc hype seems like it might’ve been true a little bit ago but no longer the case now. Seems like the top dogs are KH and Susman.

[Anonymous User]

Does Kellogg's appellate practice have a "star" partner like some of the DC biglaw groups do?

[Anonymous User]

I think it would be better to consider only V100 firms generally instead of firms with a handful of associates, or by practice area.

In which case, WLRK is probably the most selective firm by far that is exceptionally strong in both corporate and litigation.

Okay. Limiting to V100 and erasing distinctions between offices/practice groups, you get:

1. Kellogg Hansen
2. Susman Godfrey
3. Wachtell Lipton
4. Munger Tolles
5. Williams & Connolly

Maybe flip 3/4. There's a significant drop-off after 5.

I just don't know enough about Munger to say whether there's a huge gap between 3 and 4 or 4 and 5, but there's a huge gap between 3 and 5 here, at least.

Wachtell doesn't even recruit at my lower T-14 but W&C might have hired from it more than any other single office in the country.

What lower T14 sends more students to W&C than any other office in the country? What?

I would need to dig up the old summer spreadsheet to double check this, but my class at Duke from within the past few years sent more people to Williams & Connolly DC than to any other single office of any firm.

[Anonymous User]

Does Kellogg's appellate practice have a "star" partner like some of the DC biglaw groups do?

Mark Hansen, David Frederick, Michael Kellogg

[Anonymous User]

Does Kellogg's appellate practice have a "star" partner like some of the DC biglaw groups do?

Mark Hansen, David Frederick, Michael Kellogg

This is correct. And of these, David Frederick is top dog for SCOTUS practice.

[Anonymous User]

This thread is kind of ridiculous. I did a screener with almost every firm in this thread and can honestly say that they're all "hardest to get" for someone. For example, I got GDC, but lots of people with slightly better grades didn't because they were boring and lots of people with worse grades didn't because their grades weren't good enough. I got a W&C callback but no offer maybe because I admitted DC wasn't my fave location, but a girl who didn't get callbacks at Gibson or Munger got a W&C offer. Another person didn't get W&C, GDC, or Munger callbacks but got Kellogg. I didn't get a Skadden or Kirkland CB but I know people with worse grades who got offers probably because they were clearly a better fit culturally; I got Wachtell, DPW, and Cravath offers, though, so you can't say I wasn't competitive on paper. Firms care about a lot of different factors during interviews, so be yourself, try to suss out whether you'll like working with the people you meet regardless of how impressive it will look relative to your peers, and hope you end up somewhere that's a good fit for you, not just somewhere "hard to get."

Also--all this OCI stuff that seems like the most important gold star competition in law school goes away quickly. I could not care less where everyone is this summer, and what ultimately matters is whether I like my firm or not. Working at firms gives you an impression of the other firms around, and in your market, other markets probably don't matter (this is also true for practice group--if you're doing RE at Gibson LA, you probably don't care that someone is at the "more prestigious" Kirkland Chicago office, or even know that Kirkland Chicago is prestigious). And you realize that pretty soon into 2L, clerkship stuff starts happening and then it's OCI on steroids with who can get the better clerkship. And nobody cares if you summered at Kirkland or Latham if they're sitting on SDNY/9th Cir. clerkships they got the day the plan opened. Then graduation happens and it's all about who gets awards at graduation and who has the fanciest fellowship that the law school will write an article about and who thinks they're going to clerk for SCOTUS or be a Bristow fellow. In the grand scheme of your life, the prestige of your 2L summer firm is going to matter far less than the CDO and forum posts would lead you to believe. Whether you like working at the place you get an offer from, on the other hand...that matters.

[nealric]

This thread is kind of ridiculous. I did a screener with almost every firm in this thread and can honestly say that they're all "hardest to get" for someone. For example, I got GDC, but lots of people with slightly better grades didn't because they were boring and lots of people with worse grades didn't because their grades weren't good enough. I got a W&C callback but no offer maybe because I admitted DC wasn't my fave location, but a girl who didn't get callbacks at Gibson or Munger got a W&C offer. Another person didn't get W&C, GDC, or Munger callbacks but got Kellogg. I didn't get a Skadden or Kirkland CB but I know people with worse grades who got offers probably because they were clearly a better fit culturally; I got Wachtell, DPW, and Cravath offers, though, so you can't say I wasn't competitive on paper. Firms care about a lot of different factors during interviews, so be yourself, try to suss out whether you'll like working with the people you meet regardless of how impressive it will look relative to your peers, and hope you end up somewhere that's a good fit for you, not just somewhere "hard to get."

Also--all this OCI stuff that seems like the most important gold star competition in law school goes away quickly. I could not care less where everyone is this summer, and what ultimately matters is whether I like my firm or not. Working at firms gives you an impression of the other firms around, and in your market, other markets probably don't matter (this is also true for practice group--if you're doing RE at Gibson LA, you probably don't care that someone is at the "more prestigious" Kirkland Chicago office, or even know that Kirkland Chicago is prestigious). And you realize that pretty soon into 2L, clerkship stuff starts happening and then it's OCI on steroids with who can get the better clerkship. And nobody cares if you summered at Kirkland or Latham if they're sitting on SDNY/9th Cir. clerkships they got the day the plan opened. Then graduation happens and it's all about who gets awards at graduation and who has the fanciest fellowship that the law school will write an article about and who thinks they're going to clerk for SCOTUS or be a Bristow fellow. In the grand scheme of your life, the prestige of your 2L summer firm is going to matter far less than the CDO and forum posts would lead you to believe. Whether you like working at the place you get an offer from, on the other hand...that matters.

Indeed. A lot of K-JD types who have spent their entire academic career always aiming for the top-ranked thing (be top of their high school, attend top-ranked undergrad and top ranked law school) can't get out of that mentality when picking firms. They have to go to the "top" firm.

People who just pick a firm because it's the most selective may find that the factors that have gotten them to this point no longer hold up once they've been an associate for a few years. At some point, you have to get off that train to stay sane and just find a place that works for you. That may or may not be the most selective or prestigious firm.

[Born-Ready29]

Important to note that there are markets where elite litigation boutiques do not care about pedigree as much or any of the previously mentioned firms. For example, in Miami, the elite boutiques would rather see that you have “good training.” Knowing who mentored you and how many cases you’ve tried usually trumps anything.

[JohnDoe297]

This thread had me doing some thinking. Took a look at Chambers Nationwide Appellate rankings. Didn't include some biglaw firms in Band 1. Will provide an updated list later. Nonetheless, here are most of the nationally recognized appellate law firms by the ratio of Supreme Court clerks to attorneys within their DC offices and/or appellate practice areas. Firms are listed in the format of XXXX (YYY, ZZZ), where X is the firm name, Y is the practice group, and Z is the office location.

List by Ratio of Supreme Court Clerks
Jones Day (Issues and Appeals, DC): 36/51 = 70.59%
Paul Weiss (Supreme Court, DC): 4/8 = 50%
Sullivan & Cromwell (Supreme Court, DC): 3/6 = 50%
Munger, Tolles, & Olson (Any, DC): 9/19 = 47.37%
Sidley Austin (Supreme Court and Appellate, DC): 16/39 = 42.03%
Clement and Murphy (DC only): 5/13 = 38.46%
Jenner and Block (Supreme Court, DC): 7/20 = 35%
O’Melveny (Supreme Court, DC): 4/12 = 33.33%
Jenner and Block (Supreme Court, Any): 8/26 = 30.77%
Akin (Supreme Court, DC): 3/10 = 30%
Orrick (Supreme Court): 13/45 = 28.89%
Sullivan & Cromwell (Supreme Court, Any): 12/49 = 24.49%
Akin (Supreme Court, Any): 5/22 = 22.73%
Goodwin (Supreme Court, DC): 2/9 = 22.22%
Wilmer Hale (Supreme Court, DC): 8/36 = 22.22%
Arnold and Porter (Supreme Court, DC): 5/25 = 20%
Kellogg Hansen (Supreme Court, DC only): 7/47 = 14.89%
Kellogg Hansen (Any, DC only) 14/97 = 14.43%
Williams and Connolly (Supreme Court, DC only): 4/32 = 12.5%

[Anonymous User]

In before someone says Craavaaaaath is competitive for lit, compared to the top litigation practices. LOL

Lol well since you brought it up...

OP was asking for most selective, not the best overall firm, though TLS often conflates the two.