K&E Share Partner taking questions about K&E Forum

[Anonymous User]

Fairly specific question: What do the WLRK (corporate and ReFi) associate laterals get?

I've never asked, but heard there are guarantees; it's not just a signing bonus. Subject of idle amusement/fascination.

[Anonymous User]

I didn't realize that trying to provide accurate info isn't chill. "[T]he firm kicks in another ~40k to your 401k on top of the bonus each year" is simply not accurate, and many NSPs leave in the years before this becomes relevant to them.

Like I said in my later post, yes, if you're on the path to shares or become a perma-NSP, you can do very well. If you're not, you're likely making less than or the same as people your class at other top firms.

This is a stupid thing to bicker about in classic TLS fashion; let's move on. You seem perturbed about your NSP comp. I get it -- I was basically in your shoes my first year as an NSP particularly because there was less good info out there when I made it so there was a lot more shock value for me I think than a baby NSP in 2021 -- you think "wow, maybe I'm going to suddenly be making $$$x!" and you realize you're actually worse off vs. your 6th year. Like I said, you breakaway fast though. If you bounce 12 months after becoming an NSP you may think the whole thing is a raw deal but within another year or two you're making significantly more than mkt. -- the bonus multiplier + the 401k kick-in really start to add up, even for "ordinary" NSPs who aren't necessarily slotted for SP.

I'm not bickering, I'm just correcting the incorrect things that you've said. Given that you haven't disputed the substance of anything I've said, you calling me "perturbed" reeks of projection. I could not have been happier with my comp overall -- Kirkland paid me an enormous amount of money in my time there, certainly more in total than I would have made at virtually any other firm. But that doesn't change the fact that your first year as an NSP is a pay cut from your prior year's pay, and years 2-3 could very well also be a pay cut compared to your peers at other firms depending on bonuses and your future at the firm. If your bonus multiplier is on the low end, say 1.3x, it's not making up the difference in taxes and insurance.

You continue to beat this dead horse. You're not "correcting" anything you're being pedantic. You aren't materially affecting the information I already conveyed by noting in Comic Book Guy fashion that it's ackshually 36,500 not 40,000 that gets thrown into the 401k (and anyway it will be 40k soon enough as the limits increase). I don't have any projection here. I do have another case of being reminded why I only come here sporadically to avoid this sort of waste of time internet debating that some people here seem to get off on.

It is highly unlikely that you'll be making less than your peers if you are an NSP beyond your first full year. As you've already noted, by your second year, you're getting the full 401k contribution of ~40k and then you get the bonus multiplier. Even if you're a bog-standard NSP billing 2,000 hours you'll get something like a 1.2x, 1.3x and maybe more depending on your practice group but let's go with 1.2x to be super conservative. So off of a 100k base that means you're getting an extra ~20k on a bonus + 40k on a 401k kick-in, which puts you 60k ahead of your equivalent at Skadden or Cravath or wherever. You're already breaking ahead of them even with the loss of the social security and health insurance kick-ins. Point of fact most NSPs are getting way more than that and it happens fast if you're willing to hang around for a few years (this year I'll easily break 600k).

TL;DR: You're being a pedant; your first year as an NSP is admittedly a surprise because of the lack of health insurance supplement (mostly; they still supplement a bit years 1 and 2) and double social security hit; you break ahead of the market by your second year as an NSP and it keeps growing after that

I thought you wanted to move on? If you want to call being right being pedantic, go for it, I'll be over here getting off on being right.

I definitely don't want to waste further time with you since you're clearly now just arguing to argue and this is exactly the sort of behavior that chased away the original SP (or highly connected NSP LARPing as an SP) OP. I'll be happy to engage others on substance to try to keep this thread useful.

Lots of clearing up of misconceptions being done in this thread!

To be clear, the SP ran off in shame due to his/her own behavior, not because of ppl on here.

We don't know why he ran off unless we hear it from the horse's mouth but I highly suspect it was because of the sort of behavior you're putting on full display here which made him realize it wasn't worth wasting his time. It's a nice TLS move that I see frequently i.e., someone with actual experience who's currently at a firm will come in and offer to share their (really often hard to come by) insights and insider knowledge but then things will get derailed by people with axes to grind, autists who become hyper-focused on proving a particular point, trolls etc. to the point that the original guy decides it's better to just walk away. In fact I remember this particular exchange I had with a former KE associate who hyper-obsessed over whether the 401k contribution you receive as an NSP was $40,000 or $36,500 to the tune of a dozen back and forth poasts that shitted up a thread and made everyone just roll their eyes; really good times.

[Anonymous User]

can you guys tell us how much K&E pays the WLRK corporate assoc laterals instead of fighting about a 401k contribution

(or at least delete all but the prior post when you're quoting so each post isn't like half the page.)

[Anonymous User]

We don't know why he ran off unless we hear it from the horse's mouth but I highly suspect it was because of the sort of behavior you're putting on full display here which made him realize it wasn't worth wasting his time. It's a nice TLS move that I see frequently i.e., someone with actual experience who's currently at a firm will come in and offer to share their (really often hard to come by) insights and insider knowledge but then things will get derailed by people with axes to grind, autists who become hyper-focused on proving a particular point, trolls etc. to the point that the original guy decides it's better to just walk away. In fact I remember this particular exchange I had with a former KE associate who hyper-obsessed over whether the 401k contribution you receive as an NSP was $40,000 or $36,500 to the tune of a dozen back and forth poasts that shitted up a thread and made everyone just roll their eyes; really good times.

To be clear, I'm (obviously) a former NSP not a former associate, and I was pointing out the difference between $0 and $40k, not the difference between $36,500 and $40k. If you think $40k is a meaningless difference I'll send you my bank info and you can wire me $40k. But if you want to keep misconstruing our exchange to make yourself feel better about this dead horse you can't stop beating, while talking about how annoying it is that everyone on this website beats dead horses, go for it.

ETA: Since you seem to think that your "insight" into KE is critical, I'd be interested in whether people found your "nah man, chill tf out, don't worry, you'll make BANK as an NSP some day, ignore that Comic Book Guy pedant" schtick more helpful than my providing precise numbers for what NSPs can expect for taxes and healthcare.

[beepboopbeep]

It's a nice TLS move that I see frequently i.e., someone with actual experience who's currently at a firm will come in and offer to share their (really often hard to come by) insights and insider knowledge but then things will get derailed by people with axes to grind, autists who become hyper-focused on proving a particular point, trolls etc. to the point that the original guy decides it's better to just walk away. In fact I remember this particular exchange I had with a former KE associate who hyper-obsessed over whether the 401k contribution you receive as an NSP was $40,000 or $36,500 to the tune of a dozen back and forth poasts that shitted up a thread and made everyone just roll their eyes; really good times.

Yes, you are in no way at fault for that back-and-forth being stupid. FWIW, I thought both sets of posts were informative until it devolved into "ur being pedantic" "no u" "no u".

[LBJ's Hair]

I think this thread is quite interesting FWIW, appreciate the KE poster insights

[Anonymous User]

To get this thread back on track...I'm at a peer firm in NYC. If I were to lateral to K&E as a 6th year, could I be in the running to make NSP a year later? Or, will they make me wait an extra year to "prove it".

For context, in my particular practice area, my current firm is significantly stronger than K&E, but K&E is trying to build that practice out and has been on a hiring spree. I'm not particularly keen to leave my firm, but I'd like to be "partner" somewhere in some fashion and want to know when the right time is to jump ship for a guaranteed thing.

[Anonymous User]

To get this thread back on track...I'm at a peer firm in NYC. If I were to lateral to K&E as a 6th year, could I be in the running to make NSP a year later? Or, will they make me wait an extra year to "prove it".

For context, in my particular practice area, my current firm is significantly stronger than K&E, but K&E is trying to build that practice out and has been on a hiring spree. I'm not particularly keen to leave my firm, but I'd like to be "partner" somewhere in some fashion and want to know when the right time is to jump ship for a guaranteed thing.

There isn't a set-in-stone rule about this but with the way KE is simultaneously bleeding attorneys and also hiring attorneys I bet you could insist on coming in as an NSP and they'd oblige. Back before the insanity of COVID it was more common for them to make you do a lap as an associate for a year and then bump to NSP. Something similar, by the way, happens for more senior attorneys at other firms and institutions where they'll make them spend a couple years in purgatory as an NSP but with a "promise" (unenforceable but usually held to) that if things go as planned they'll get shares 1 or 2 years out.

[Anonymous User]

To get this thread back on track...I'm at a peer firm in NYC. If I were to lateral to K&E as a 6th year, could I be in the running to make NSP a year later? Or, will they make me wait an extra year to "prove it".

For context, in my particular practice area, my current firm is significantly stronger than K&E, but K&E is trying to build that practice out and has been on a hiring spree. I'm not particularly keen to leave my firm, but I'd like to be "partner" somewhere in some fashion and want to know when the right time is to jump ship for a guaranteed thing.

There isn't a set-in-stone rule about this but with the way KE is simultaneously bleeding attorneys and also hiring attorneys I bet you could insist on coming in as an NSP and they'd oblige. Back before the insanity of COVID it was more common for them to make you do a lap as an associate for a year and then bump to NSP. Something similar, by the way, happens for more senior attorneys at other firms and institutions where they'll make them spend a couple years in purgatory as an NSP but with a "promise" (unenforceable but usually held to) that if things go as planned they'll get shares 1 or 2 years out.

Thanks for answering this - one other question - one of the most attractive features of my current role is that I'm effectively 100% remote. I've heard K&E is friendly to remote working as well, but I'm not sure if that's a team/practice group thing or general policy.

[Anonymous User]

To get this thread back on track...I'm at a peer firm in NYC. If I were to lateral to K&E as a 6th year, could I be in the running to make NSP a year later? Or, will they make me wait an extra year to "prove it".

For context, in my particular practice area, my current firm is significantly stronger than K&E, but K&E is trying to build that practice out and has been on a hiring spree. I'm not particularly keen to leave my firm, but I'd like to be "partner" somewhere in some fashion and want to know when the right time is to jump ship for a guaranteed thing.

There isn't a set-in-stone rule about this but with the way KE is simultaneously bleeding attorneys and also hiring attorneys I bet you could insist on coming in as an NSP and they'd oblige. Back before the insanity of COVID it was more common for them to make you do a lap as an associate for a year and then bump to NSP. Something similar, by the way, happens for more senior attorneys at other firms and institutions where they'll make them spend a couple years in purgatory as an NSP but with a "promise" (unenforceable but usually held to) that if things go as planned they'll get shares 1 or 2 years out.

Thanks for answering this - one other question - one of the most attractive features of my current role is that I'm effectively 100% remote. I've heard K&E is friendly to remote working as well, but I'm not sure if that's a team/practice group thing or general policy.

A general gloss on KE culture is that it's extremely remote friendly. As long as you're responsive, billing, and performing at a high level they tend to not care where in the world you're doing it from. (In fact the "back to the office" letter which has since been scrapped was hilarious in that it didn't even try to specify how much time they expected people to be in the office once the date hit they just basically said "try to make it your baseline"--perfect encapsulation of the culture.)

Having said that, if this is super important to you, you need to do your diligence with the specific practice group because this will come down to a practice group by practice group basis. You don't want to end up in the one office / practice group combo that actually expects tons of facetime just because you didn't ask.

[Anonymous User]

Do you KE guys bickering and generally showing your asses know that the rest of us can see this? If the goal of this thread was to "clear up some misconceptions" well I guess it cleared stuff up all right.

To be clear: it doesn't matter who is correct, or if the question that triggered OP was indeed stupid. Your behavior is a huge turnoff.

[Anonymous User]

Do you KE guys bickering and generally showing your asses know that the rest of us can see this? If the goal of this thread was to "clear up some misconceptions" well I guess it cleared stuff up all right.

To be clear: it doesn't matter who is correct, or if the question that triggered OP was indeed stupid. Your behavior is a huge turnoff.

Welcome to the profession of lawyers. There are people like this everywhere in the practice because it naturally attracts that sort of personality that will cling to a minor detail and fight back and forth. The best remedy to this is to turn the thread back to substance and for people to stop bringing up something that happened a page back and further derailing.

[Anonymous User]

Do you KE guys bickering and generally showing your asses know that the rest of us can see this? If the goal of this thread was to "clear up some misconceptions" well I guess it cleared stuff up all right.

To be clear: it doesn't matter who is correct, or if the question that triggered OP was indeed stupid. Your behavior is a huge turnoff.

Welcome to the profession of lawyers. There are people like this everywhere in the practice because it naturally attracts that sort of personality that will cling to a minor detail and fight back and forth. The best remedy to this is to turn the thread back to substance and for people to stop bringing up something that happened a page back and further derailing.

It wasn't derailed! It gave us all a good inside look into the firm. This is genuinely useful. (Unless these are ppl from other firms trying to make you look bad.)

Yes, there's ppl like this everywhere, but this thread started to try and improve the image of a firm and resulted in this...That means something. Either lack of control or lack of awareness that this behavior looks bad. Or something. Whatever the cause, I think we all learned a lot.

[Anonymous User]

This is a stupid thing to bicker about in classic TLS fashion; let's move on. You seem perturbed about your NSP comp. I get it -- I was basically in your shoes my first year as an NSP particularly because there was less good info out there when I made it so there was a lot more shock value for me I think than a baby NSP in 2021 -- you think "wow, maybe I'm going to suddenly be making $$$x!" and you realize you're actually worse off vs. your 6th year. Like I said, you breakaway fast though. If you bounce 12 months after becoming an NSP you may think the whole thing is a raw deal but within another year or two you're making significantly more than mkt. -- the bonus multiplier + the 401k kick-in really start to add up, even for "ordinary" NSPs who aren't necessarily slotted for SP.

I'm not bickering, I'm just correcting the incorrect things that you've said. Given that you haven't disputed the substance of anything I've said, you calling me "perturbed" reeks of projection. I could not have been happier with my comp overall -- Kirkland paid me an enormous amount of money in my time there, certainly more in total than I would have made at virtually any other firm. But that doesn't change the fact that your first year as an NSP is a pay cut from your prior year's pay, and years 2-3 could very well also be a pay cut compared to your peers at other firms depending on bonuses and your future at the firm. If your bonus multiplier is on the low end, say 1.3x, it's not making up the difference in taxes and insurance.

You continue to beat this dead horse. You're not "correcting" anything you're being pedantic. You aren't materially affecting the information I already conveyed by noting in Comic Book Guy fashion that it's ackshually 36,500 not 40,000 that gets thrown into the 401k (and anyway it will be 40k soon enough as the limits increase). I don't have any projection here. I do have another case of being reminded why I only come here sporadically to avoid this sort of waste of time internet debating that some people here seem to get off on.

It is highly unlikely that you'll be making less than your peers if you are an NSP beyond your first full year. As you've already noted, by your second year, you're getting the full 401k contribution of ~40k and then you get the bonus multiplier. Even if you're a bog-standard NSP billing 2,000 hours you'll get something like a 1.2x, 1.3x and maybe more depending on your practice group but let's go with 1.2x to be super conservative. So off of a 100k base that means you're getting an extra ~20k on a bonus + 40k on a 401k kick-in, which puts you 60k ahead of your equivalent at Skadden or Cravath or wherever. You're already breaking ahead of them even with the loss of the social security and health insurance kick-ins. Point of fact most NSPs are getting way more than that and it happens fast if you're willing to hang around for a few years (this year I'll easily break 600k).

TL;DR: You're being a pedant; your first year as an NSP is admittedly a surprise because of the lack of health insurance supplement (mostly; they still supplement a bit years 1 and 2) and double social security hit; you break ahead of the market by your second year as an NSP and it keeps growing after that

I thought you wanted to move on? If you want to call being right being pedantic, go for it, I'll be over here getting off on being right.

I definitely don't want to waste further time with you since you're clearly now just arguing to argue and this is exactly the sort of behavior that chased away the original SP (or highly connected NSP LARPing as an SP) OP. I'll be happy to engage others on substance to try to keep this thread useful.

Lots of clearing up of misconceptions being done in this thread!

To be clear, the SP ran off in shame due to his/her own behavior, not because of ppl on here.

We don't know why he ran off unless we hear it from the horse's mouth but I highly suspect it was because of the sort of behavior you're putting on full display here which made him realize it wasn't worth wasting his time. It's a nice TLS move that I see frequently i.e., someone with actual experience who's currently at a firm will come in and offer to share their (really often hard to come by) insights and insider knowledge but then things will get derailed by people with axes to grind, autists who become hyper-focused on proving a particular point, trolls etc. to the point that the original guy decides it's better to just walk away. In fact I remember this particular exchange I had with a former KE associate who hyper-obsessed over whether the 401k contribution you receive as an NSP was $40,000 or $36,500 to the tune of a dozen back and forth poasts that shitted up a thread and made everyone just roll their eyes; really good times.

Both of these insufferable kirkland NSPs should be banned, and they stand as a warning to anyone thinking about working there

[Anonymous User]

As a KE NSP (anonymous because of post history), I can say that the bickering back and forth does not align with all of the NSPs I know at the firm. All of the NSPs that I interact with on a daily basis are very cordial and friendly. However, I am in a smaller office so I cannot speak for NYC/Chicago. I do have to say I found it pretty funny that the argument was over a 401K contribution that is actually $37,500, so neither were correct!

In any event, I think there are other KE folks here who are happy to answer questions.

[Anonymous User]

I think my question got lost in the mix earlier. Hypothetically speaking, how much comp would a "permanent" NSP (maybe 10-12 years of experience, but to be clear not on the road to shares) be getting? (Ballpark figures or range is okay because I understand it's a black box at that point)

I'd welcome any thoughts from any of the (current or former) K&E NSPs, thanks in advance!

[Anonymous User]

The Permanent NSP comp is a bit of a black box, but I’ve heard numbers in excess of $1MM (depending on group, experience, etc.).

[Anonymous User]

The Permanent NSP comp is a bit of a black box, but I’ve heard numbers in excess of $1MM (depending on group, experience, etc.).

Good to know, thanks. I'm in a non-equity partner role at a V30 in a transactional group and making $600k all-in and considering a move to K&E if the comp is materially better and it sounds like it might be. Working crazy hours at my current firm, so might as well do it for more money.

[Anonymous User]

can you guys tell us how much K&E pays the WLRK corporate assoc laterals instead of fighting about a 401k contribution

(or at least delete all but the prior post when you're quoting so each post isn't like half the page.)

With the caveat that this is second hand, what I heard with one corporate lateral from WLRK is that they guaranteed a match of WLRK compensation for three years. Personally, you’d have to pay me more to lateral from WLRK to K&E, but my understanding is that this associate didn’t feel he was on track to become a partner at WLRK and thought his chances would be better at K&E. And with a three-year comp match, it was worth a try.

[Anonymous User]

I'll be happy to engage others on substance to try to keep this thread useful.

Don't worry, this exchange has been useful for the rest of us - confirms a lot of suspicions re: Kirkland culture!

[Anonymous User]

I'll be happy to engage others on substance to try to keep this thread useful.

Don't worry, this exchange has been useful for the rest of us - confirms a lot of suspicions re: Kirkland culture!

No offense, but to the handful of people saying "oh, wow this spat about 401k contributions confirms a lot about KE culture" you sound totally childish and like you're just looking for a data point to support a preconceived notion.

[Anonymous User]

The Permanent NSP comp is a bit of a black box, but I’ve heard numbers in excess of $1MM (depending on group, experience, etc.).

Do you have any more info about this? Is "permanent NSP" essentially the new version of "of counsel" for mid-career lawyers at KE?

[almostperfectt]

I'll be happy to engage others on substance to try to keep this thread useful.

Don't worry, this exchange has been useful for the rest of us - confirms a lot of suspicions re: Kirkland culture!

No offense, but to the handful of people saying "oh, wow this spat about 401k contributions confirms a lot about KE culture" you sound totally childish and like you're just looking for a data point to support a preconceived notion.

Tell me you're at KE without telling me you're at KE

[Anonymous User]

I'll be happy to engage others on substance to try to keep this thread useful.

Don't worry, this exchange has been useful for the rest of us - confirms a lot of suspicions re: Kirkland culture!

No offense, but to the handful of people saying "oh, wow this spat about 401k contributions confirms a lot about KE culture" you sound totally childish and like you're just looking for a data point to support a preconceived notion.

Keep on going, people who have a preconceived notion about your firm are surely going to change their minds the more you insult them.

This isn't an argument you can win. It's not even an argument. That's your first mistake. If you cared about PR, you'd try to behave in public.

[Anonymous User]

I'll be happy to engage others on substance to try to keep this thread useful.

Don't worry, this exchange has been useful for the rest of us - confirms a lot of suspicions re: Kirkland culture!

No offense, but to the handful of people saying "oh, wow this spat about 401k contributions confirms a lot about KE culture" you sound totally childish and like you're just looking for a data point to support a preconceived notion.

Keep on going, people who have a preconceived notion about your firm are surely going to change their minds the more you insult them.

This isn't an argument you can win. It's not even an argument. That's your first mistake. If you cared about PR, you'd try to behave in public.

I'm not the other anon. KE has 3,000 attorneys in 16 offices and it's crazy to be like "oh, I've learned a lot about KE culture today" from a random exchange about DC benefits, come on. To echo the comment from the other NSP, most of the attorneys I've worked with have come across as normal decent human beings and I count some of my good friends among them. There is a culture at KE--to the extent any large firm has one across its offices and practice groups--and if people earnestly want to discuss it I'd be happy to offer my $.02 but these comments about "well, there's KE's culture" aren't fair or true.