1st year corp. associates: Share your stories Forum

[Anonymous User]

I am a 7th year in M&A at a v3. Very unfortunate to hear how hard of a time everyone is having — especially as I really like my job (so don’t like to imagine the juniors on my deals are suffering).

Best thing you can do is have a great attitude and be very available. That will get you in with the more senior lawyers on your team. You will get invited to calls with clients, seniors will call you to discuss the deal, etc.

This is where the learning happens. You hear the partner/senior associate explain to the client how the indemnity works for the 5th time, and now you get it. You should do your own reading to supplement (Harvard law governance blog, etc.), attend lunches where partners speak, etc.

Then, partner/senior associate sees you as a resource and staffs you on multiple deals and teaches you, so you can be more useful to them. That’s pretty much the key to learning how to do the job.

As far as unsuccessful senior/junior working relationships, a few observations. First impressions are so important. Nail the first several assignments very quickly, and you will get a very good reputation. Then, when you sleep in on a Saturday and miss an email, the senior will think you are super busy (rather than sleeping in).

It’s also true that some juniors just “get it”. What does that mean? They are reliable, take ownership, etc. All buzzwords, but to put in perspective, I worked with two 2nd years recently and gave the same assignment: help client put together disclosure schedules for purchase agreement. Successful junior chased client to move process along, set up calls with me to discuss substantive questions, etc. Unsuccessful junior sent disclosure schedule shell to client, let it sit for a week before I followed up with him/her, etc.

So, all attitude and approach and the learning will come. Happy to answer questions if anyone has any.

[avenuem]

I am a 7th year in M&A at a v3. Very unfortunate to hear how hard of a time everyone is having — especially as I really like my job (so don’t like to imagine the juniors on my deals are suffering).

Best thing you can do is have a great attitude and be very available. That will get you in with the more senior lawyers on your team. You will get invited to calls with clients, seniors will call you to discuss the deal, etc.

Then, partner/senior associate sees you as a resource and staffs you on multiple deals and teaches you, so you can be more useful to them. That’s pretty much the key to learning how to do the job.

Barf. No thx.

Being on too many deals with nobody respecting that you have other deals, and everyone expecting you to be "very available" and "more useful to them" on each deal is exactly why so many corporate associates are under water.

Although, to be honest, I don't mind looking down at them drowing from my mini-pre-partner-yacht. You have to know how to balance your workload. One deal a year is all you should offer. No exceptions without an exponential bump in salary.

[Anonymous User]

Has anyone heard of a firm making a large number of its first year lit associates work corporate for several months?

Skadden is doing this.

If I was a lit associate getting forced into that meatgrinder, I'd lateral asap. I feel bad for them.

PW is doing this too.

Simpson is also doing this

[Anonymous User]

Has anyone heard of a firm making a large number of its first year lit associates work corporate for several months?

Skadden is doing this.

If I was a lit associate getting forced into that meatgrinder, I'd lateral asap. I feel bad for them.

PW is doing this too.

Simpson is also doing this

Ropes is also doing it

[Anonymous User]

so maybe these posts support the claim in that other thread asking whether biglaw lit is dying. I already responded that I would be LIVID if this happened to me. I'm a first year at a v50 in lit and this hasn't happened to anyone I know. So is the moral if you want to do lit go to a boutique or a lower vault firm? From what I've heard, lit juniors in the v50ish range are more likely to get substantive experience early on relative to those at a v10 (b/c lower leverage). Maybe non-NYC also has something to do with it.

[Anonymous User]

I am a 7th year in M&A at a v3. Very unfortunate to hear how hard of a time everyone is having — especially as I really like my job (so don’t like to imagine the juniors on my deals are suffering).

Best thing you can do is have a great attitude and be very available. That will get you in with the more senior lawyers on your team. You will get invited to calls with clients, seniors will call you to discuss the deal, etc.

This is where the learning happens. You hear the partner/senior associate explain to the client how the indemnity works for the 5th time, and now you get it. You should do your own reading to supplement (Harvard law governance blog, etc.), attend lunches where partners speak, etc.

Then, partner/senior associate sees you as a resource and staffs you on multiple deals and teaches you, so you can be more useful to them. That’s pretty much the key to learning how to do the job.

As far as unsuccessful senior/junior working relationships, a few observations. First impressions are so important. Nail the first several assignments very quickly, and you will get a very good reputation. Then, when you sleep in on a Saturday and miss an email, the senior will think you are super busy (rather than sleeping in).

It’s also true that some juniors just “get it”. What does that mean? They are reliable, take ownership, etc. All buzzwords, but to put in perspective, I worked with two 2nd years recently and gave the same assignment: help client put together disclosure schedules for purchase agreement. Successful junior chased client to move process along, set up calls with me to discuss substantive questions, etc. Unsuccessful junior sent disclosure schedule shell to client, let it sit for a week before I followed up with him/her, etc.

So, all attitude and approach and the learning will come. Happy to answer questions if anyone has any.

this is a great post and I appreciate it as a junior, but I agree with avenuem. you've laid it clear. biglaw is a pie eating contest where the only prize for excellence and impressing people is more pie. now, no one wants to be bad or awful, especially if you genuinely respect and enjoy working with your seniors on a deal team (this is actually my strongest motivator, besides my loans and debt. I really do like my midlevels and partners, especially as I've gotten more experience. I can tell when they're trying to teach and prepare me to take on more important workstreams with less supervision, which are also meaningfully more interesting than dd and other early stuff).

but still, my mind is that it's not worth gunning in biglaw unless you genuinely want to try for partner. most of us will leave in 4-6 years and unless you're genuinely bad/incompetent no one is going to care if you put in the hours and are just good, not great. deals will still keep churning and flowing and I can't accept a life where I commit my time like this for years on end. nor do I see any need to bill more than I need to for good standing at the firm and a bonus.

[Anonymous User]

xstaffed on Capital Markets and Corporate deals right now and every day is a living nightmare. I cannot understate that enough. This work is fucking awful. It's so boring and I don't know how to do any of it! The partners are fucking awful. They don't even ask if you have other (necessary) things to do in your free time before telling you that you have to work on their deals all weekend, or apologize and acknowledge that they're asking you to do something annoying. Zero ability to say no, even if you do they tell you to fuck off and send you punishment in the form of 8-10 more email chains with you cc'd and referenced somewhere between email 5-9, just incognito enough for you to totally miss it.

Billing 10-14 hrs/day. I don't know how I'm going to survive this. Mentally in a low place. Feel like Chris McCandless after he ate those fucking seeds right before he died in that Alaskan bus but at least he got to look out a fucking window instead of at some PC. Could use advice on how to persevere through the abuse.

I get it. I actually left non legal practice to move to biglaw. It has been absolutely ruinous for my mental health. When you’re in the grind like that, every day is just grey and blah and depressing. The best advice I can give is to get through these deals and then aggressively protect your mental health. Steps I took after one year in a firm (having established a good reputation):

- be an early worker and make it known (i.e. I’ve told partners who said they were sending late comments that I would handle at 7 am). Late workers are never online early and will be fine with it. Also (speaking as someone who used to be a client), sending at 9 am or 1 am doesn’t usually matter.

- I don’t ask for work unless I’m really really slow. Turns out the assigning partners can’t see detail so PTO/personal time or CLEs show as hours worked. Enter time every day and release so you don’t get staffed.

- Stop answering calls after certain hour, stop responding to emails after a certain hour. If I’m working with a crazy person I’ll block their number from 9 pm onwards every night.

- don’t check emails on Friday night or Saturday if you’re not on an active deal

- therapy. Best decision ever.

[Elston Gunn]

Do Skadden senior associates really say that they work at a “V3”?

[Goceltics25]

xstaffed on Capital Markets and Corporate deals right now and every day is a living nightmare. I cannot understate that enough. This work is fucking awful. It's so boring and I don't know how to do any of it! The partners are fucking awful. They don't even ask if you have other (necessary) things to do in your free time before telling you that you have to work on their deals all weekend, or apologize and acknowledge that they're asking you to do something annoying. Zero ability to say no, even if you do they tell you to fuck off and send you punishment in the form of 8-10 more email chains with you cc'd and referenced somewhere between email 5-9, just incognito enough for you to totally miss it.

Billing 10-14 hrs/day. I don't know how I'm going to survive this. Mentally in a low place. Feel like Chris McCandless after he ate those fucking seeds right before he died in that Alaskan bus but at least he got to look out a fucking window instead of at some PC. Could use advice on how to persevere through the abuse.

I get it. I actually left non legal practice to move to biglaw. It has been absolutely ruinous for my mental health. When you’re in the grind like that, every day is just grey and blah and depressing. The best advice I can give is to get through these deals and then aggressively protect your mental health. Steps I took after one year in a firm (having established a good reputation):

- be an early worker and make it known (i.e. I’ve told partners who said they were sending late comments that I would handle at 7 am). Late workers are never online early and will be fine with it. Also (speaking as someone who used to be a client), sending at 9 am or 1 am doesn’t usually matter.

- I don’t ask for work unless I’m really really slow. Turns out the assigning partners can’t see detail so PTO/personal time or CLEs show as hours worked. Enter time every day and release so you don’t get staffed.

- Stop answering calls after certain hour, stop responding to emails after a certain hour. If I’m working with a crazy person I’ll block their number from 9 pm onwards every night.

- don’t check emails on Friday night or Saturday if you’re not on an active deal

- therapy. Best decision ever.

This is great advice, appreciate the tips and insights. I'm curious, what type of practice you are in, seems doable following your advice.

[Anonymous User]

Anon who posted about the awful senior associate making my life miserable. Does anyone have advice as to how to deal with this person? This person calls other seniors and tells them I have to do his work. Unfortunately, the firm isn’t free market so I cannot say no to working with him

It’s hard when you’re a first year without a lot of other relationships, but I would just take a firmer stance against this person. Speak up when they’re being insane (in a one on one setting), don’t immediately answer or do their things, etc. eventually they’ll go away or slightly improve

[Anonymous User]

Has anyone heard of a firm making a large number of its first year lit associates work corporate for several months?

First year and am very miserable working for this one senior. After sending me five conflicting directions and snapping at me/demanding me to produce the work product at that moment, I was in tears (this person had snapped at me for ridiculous reasons before, such as answering a non-urgent email 20 min late). And when I called this senior to clarify, practically in tears at this point senior yelled at me that I did not greet the senior on the phone by saying "Hi". Senior yelled at me and demanded I repeat back "Hi X name" on the phone. Truly miserable.

Is the pandemic creating an especially terrible time for first years or does big law really just suck this bad all the time? A lot of my fellow first years are miserable to the point of looking to get out asap. I knew turnover was high in big law, but didn't expect it to be this horrible.

It does suck, but usually not this bad. Lots of Funds were sitting on war chests of cash for the first part of the pandemic to see how things shook out, and now deals are booming to make up for lost time. Companies are also quickly taking advAntage of the lower rates and issuing debt and/or equity if their stock price has been up. A lot of M&A activity with beaten down companies and/or companies flourishing with new cash flow.

Basically the perfect storm

[Anonymous User]

Then, when you sleep in on a Saturday and miss an email, the senior will think you are super busy (rather than sleeping in).

Maybe a minor point (but maybe not), but I couldn't care less what the senior associate thinks I'm doing on a Saturday and I 'miss' an email (i.e., get to it later).

[ExpOriental]

I am a 7th year in M&A at a v3. Very unfortunate to hear how hard of a time everyone is having — especially as I really like my job (so don’t like to imagine the juniors on my deals are suffering).

. . .

So, all attitude and approach and the learning will come. Happy to answer questions if anyone has any.

I have a question - why do Skaddenites insist on using "v3"?

[Anonymous User]

I am a 7th year in M&A at a v3. Very unfortunate to hear how hard of a time everyone is having — especially as I really like my job (so don’t like to imagine the juniors on my deals are suffering).

. . .

So, all attitude and approach and the learning will come. Happy to answer questions if anyone has any.

I have a question - why do Skaddenites insist on using "v3"?

I mean, "V2" seems more insufferable? At the least, it's pretty clear which firm you're referring to if you say "V3"

[Anonymous User]

Worked through this past weekend, almost all-night Sunday night, totally crushed all day today and now looking at another all-nighter... I almost feel numb now, but it just really sucks to be working hard non-stop only to have more work piling up, b/c of continuous stream of new work. The seniors I work with are pretty nice actually, but we simply have too much as a group. I don’t know how long my body can keep this up. How do people do this for years on end?

[Anonymous User]

Is there any particular practice group that is typically better off than most of the horror stories in this thread?

[Anonymous User]

Is there any particular practice group that is typically better off than most of the horror stories in this thread?

Funds has been relatively humane. I mean, I still hate it. But I have never done an all nighter and don’t expect to. Weekends are typically limited to 3 hours of Sunday work. Mostly work 8 am - 7 pm or 8-5 with covid and then again 8:30-10:30 or so. I suppose having a few hours off each night could be construed as “better”. As compared to my last job pre biglaw it still blows though.

Ultimately, funds is a more predictable practice area. By mid/senior level you have control over most of the timelines for projects (absent the usual asshole clients with crazy demands) and know the project timing farther out, so can plan better.