DPW vs. PW vs. Kirkland vs. Weil. All NY restructuring. Forum

[Anonymous User]

I heard that RX has slowed a bit and is no longer red hot like in early COVID. If work is drying up, will it be harder (more competitive) for 2L SAs to get their hands on RX work this summer?

I'm at K&E. Things have slowed down a bit, mostly because a lot of matters that would have filed in 2021 accelerated to 2020, but most partners/other advisors I've spoken to expect things to pick up 2/3Q this year. That said, being slow, I'm still on pace for just under 2300.

Short answer is no, I don't expect we'll slow down hiring.

[Anonymous User]

Anon KE attorney from the above post:

1. Thoughts on KE-Weil Well, I'm definitely a bit biased here, and I'm not super familiar with Weil as a work environment. However, from my observations of Kirkland's group/data, they are becoming pretty incomparable, partly because of the pandemic's crazy effect on the RX group's workload this year. No doubt, Weil is the second in the market as a peer firm -- solidly so, and they do great work. This isn't a negative comparison for Weil. But the size of the market share/RX profits/work/mega-bankruptcies taken on by Kirkland in comparison with Weil (from what I've seen) is just much higher for KE. There's no other way to say it, Kirkland is peer-less in RX profit, expertise, and workflow.

This is in your interest as a Kirkland attorney because it means the hours are not particularly challenging to come by, coupled with the free-market system it means you have real control over your career while being assured that you'll receive work without too many long slow periods. KE also does give market-shattering bonuses (lol just trolling the meme). The bonuses are always above market rate, and the individualized bonus calculation works in favor of attorneys from busy groups because there are more hours to go around.

Any other thoughts on Weil v K&E for debtor work? This comment seems flawed. K&E has roughly 50 share partners and nearly 300 NSP and associate. Weil has 25 SP and 60 associate. So, some of the above is just group size. But also skeptical that a levered place like K&E is optimal for associate dev.

Thanks

[Anonymous User]

Leverage at KE is truly insane. It should be easy to take one look and figure out you aren't making SP in some groups. My group had 9 NSP/associates per SP. You're fucked in that instance.

[Anonymous User]

KE rx is incredible toxic. Partners pick favorites based on arbitrary factors such as appearance and socializations and that can define you’re entire experience. The quality of work is also not as great as other similar firms. And the lack of creditor work will hurt you long term if you aren’t going to make SP there.

[Anonymous User]

It doesn't seem like the SP/NSP ratio (which given the propensity of associates to leave before making NSP is the relevant metric) is all that bad. They made, per this list: https://www.kirkland.com/news/press-rel ... w-partners, 6 total RX NSPs in Chicago and NYC combined this year. That's... not a lot, and suggests that once you make NSP the chance for equity is pretty strong.

Also remember, when you look up "Restructuring" for attorney's on K&E's website, you get a lot of people who occasionally interface with the RX team, not the core team itself (just a random example but https://www.kirkland.com/lawyers/b/barnes-ben comes up under Restructuring despite being a Litigation partner). The actual core RX team is much smaller and lower leverage (edit: based on the first 40 or so names, it's probably right around half that total size--so about 175 total attorneys between NYC and Chicago; leverage ratio unclear because the PC designation for SPs isn't super-consistent for NY partners, but considering the above 6 new NSPs, I don't think it's that high).

So as per usual this has turned into a blatant anti-Kirkland thread with no real basis in the data.

[Anonymous User]

KE rx is incredible toxic. Partners pick favorites based on arbitrary factors such as appearance and socializations and that can define you’re entire experience. The quality of work is also not as great as other similar firms. And the lack of creditor work will hurt you long term if you aren’t going to make SP there.

Not commenting re: culture because I'm not super familiar, but the lack of creditor work won't hold you back as much as you'd think. Most shops growing their RX teams are focused on getting debtor mandates more and more (Ropes, DPW, PW, etc have all been trying hard to get more debtor mandates with some success). I suspect that lateral opportunties for debtor-side attorneys are going to be stronger than creditor side for the next few years (though creditor side will still have better exit ops).

[Anonymous User]

KE rx is incredible toxic. Partners pick favorites based on arbitrary factors such as appearance and socializations and that can define you’re entire experience. The quality of work is also not as great as other similar firms. And the lack of creditor work will hurt you long term if you aren’t going to make SP there.

Isn't picking people based on appearance and how easy they are to get along with just . . . life?

[Anonymous User]

KE rx is incredible toxic. Partners pick favorites based on arbitrary factors such as appearance and socializations and that can define you’re entire experience. The quality of work is also not as great as other similar firms. And the lack of creditor work will hurt you long term if you aren’t going to make SP there.

Isn't picking people based on appearance and how easy they are to get along with just . . . life?

Yeah, this anon likely just isn't socially competent (and given "incredible toxic" "socializations" and "you're entire experience", high probability they're a foreigner without a great grasp of English, which is rarely likely to lead to you coming under a partner's wing).

[Anonymous User]

So as per usual this has turned into a blatant anti-Kirkland thread with no real basis in the data.

I made a good faith attempt to understand the leverage based on the available information. Relax

[Anonymous User]

No it’s literally about partners fixating in associates they find hot.

[Anonymous User]

KE rx is incredible toxic. Partners pick favorites based on arbitrary factors such as appearance and socializations and that can define you’re entire experience. The quality of work is also not as great as other similar firms. And the lack of creditor work will hurt you long term if you aren’t going to make SP there.

Isn't picking people based on appearance and how easy they are to get along with just . . . life?

Yeah, this anon likely just isn't socially competent (and given "incredible toxic" "socializations" and "you're entire experience", high probability they're a foreigner without a great grasp of English, which is rarely likely to lead to you coming under a partner's wing).

Thanks for confirming for the rest of us that that place is in fact incredibly toxic. That's really disgusting stuff, and I feel bad for anybody who ends up stuck working with (or even just in the presence of) either of you.

[Anonymous User]

KE rx is incredible toxic. Partners pick favorites based on arbitrary factors such as appearance and socializations and that can define you’re entire experience. The quality of work is also not as great as other similar firms. And the lack of creditor work will hurt you long term if you aren’t going to make SP there.

Isn't picking people based on appearance and how easy they are to get along with just . . . life?

Yeah, this anon likely just isn't socially competent (and given "incredible toxic" "socializations" and "you're entire experience", high probability they're a foreigner without a great grasp of English, which is rarely likely to lead to you coming under a partner's wing).

Thanks for confirming for the rest of us that that place is in fact incredibly toxic. That's really disgusting stuff, and I feel bad for anybody who ends up stuck working with (or even just in the presence of) either of you.

Dude, it's just accurate. Partners looking for associates to bring under their wing and move up the ranks are looking for the skills that allow them to generate more revenue--AKA business development skills. Social graces, attractiveness, and knowledge of the english language are all significant net values in all of these things (also we are talking about attorneys here, so the minimum standards for the first two ain't exactly high). Clients want lawyers who are easy to get along with, and partners want the same from their associates.

[Anonymous User]

KE rx is incredible toxic. Partners pick favorites based on arbitrary factors such as appearance and socializations and that can define you’re entire experience. The quality of work is also not as great as other similar firms. And the lack of creditor work will hurt you long term if you aren’t going to make SP there.

Isn't picking people based on appearance and how easy they are to get along with just . . . life?

Yeah, this anon likely just isn't socially competent (and given "incredible toxic" "socializations" and "you're entire experience", high probability they're a foreigner without a great grasp of English, which is rarely likely to lead to you coming under a partner's wing).

Thanks for confirming for the rest of us that that place is in fact incredibly toxic. That's really disgusting stuff, and I feel bad for anybody who ends up stuck working with (or even just in the presence of) either of you.

Dude, it's just accurate. Partners looking for associates to bring under their wing and move up the ranks are looking for the skills that allow them to generate more revenue--AKA business development skills. Social graces, attractiveness, and knowledge of the english language are all significant net values in all of these things (also we are talking about attorneys here, so the minimum standards for the first two ain't exactly high). Clients want lawyers who are easy to get along with, and partners want the same from their associates.

I'm the guy you were responding to, and I 100% agree with your post.

Just make sure not to complain when minorities and women and minorities get promoted first because clients demand them on their teams.

[Anonymous User]

KE rx is incredible toxic. Partners pick favorites based on arbitrary factors such as appearance and socializations and that can define you’re entire experience. The quality of work is also not as great as other similar firms. And the lack of creditor work will hurt you long term if you aren’t going to make SP there.

Isn't picking people based on appearance and how easy they are to get along with just . . . life?

Yeah, this anon likely just isn't socially competent (and given "incredible toxic" "socializations" and "you're entire experience", high probability they're a foreigner without a great grasp of English, which is rarely likely to lead to you coming under a partner's wing).

Thanks for confirming for the rest of us that that place is in fact incredibly toxic. That's really disgusting stuff, and I feel bad for anybody who ends up stuck working with (or even just in the presence of) either of you.

Dude, it's just accurate. Partners looking for associates to bring under their wing and move up the ranks are looking for the skills that allow them to generate more revenue--AKA business development skills. Social graces, attractiveness, and knowledge of the english language are all significant net values in all of these things (also we are talking about attorneys here, so the minimum standards for the first two ain't exactly high). Clients want lawyers who are easy to get along with, and partners want the same from their associates.

I'm the guy you were responding to, and I 100% agree with your post.

Just make sure not to complain when minorities and women and minorities get promoted first because clients demand them on their teams.

Sure? Why is this relevant to the conversation? I think you think you're getting some kind of dunk in but I really don't see what your point is.

[Anonymous User]

KE rx is incredible toxic. Partners pick favorites based on arbitrary factors such as appearance and socializations and that can define you’re entire experience. The quality of work is also not as great as other similar firms. And the lack of creditor work will hurt you long term if you aren’t going to make SP there.

Isn't picking people based on appearance and how easy they are to get along with just . . . life?

Yeah, this anon likely just isn't socially competent (and given "incredible toxic" "socializations" and "you're entire experience", high probability they're a foreigner without a great grasp of English, which is rarely likely to lead to you coming under a partner's wing).

Thanks for confirming for the rest of us that that place is in fact incredibly toxic. That's really disgusting stuff, and I feel bad for anybody who ends up stuck working with (or even just in the presence of) either of you.

Dude, it's just accurate. Partners looking for associates to bring under their wing and move up the ranks are looking for the skills that allow them to generate more revenue--AKA business development skills. Social graces, attractiveness, and knowledge of the english language are all significant net values in all of these things (also we are talking about attorneys here, so the minimum standards for the first two ain't exactly high). Clients want lawyers who are easy to get along with, and partners want the same from their associates.

I'm the guy you were responding to, and I 100% agree with your post.

Just make sure not to complain when minorities and women and minorities get promoted first because clients demand them on their teams.

Sure? Why is this relevant to the conversation? I think you think you're getting some kind of dunk in but I really don't see what your point is.

My impression as a SA at the Chicago office was that the Chicago Rx SAs and attorneys were all very nice and very smart. It seems that they all got along well, and I didn't hear any gossip about partners playing favorites with associates or any summers being treated differently than others. Everybody seemed to have a good time.

There did seem to be some toxicity in the corporate group in that I was honest to god some surprised that some of these summers got job offers in the first place from Kirkland. One girl would always try to pass off her work to others, and was such a suck-up to partners that it made me want to vomit. A lot of Chads in that group too.

[Anonymous User]

Isn't picking people based on appearance and how easy they are to get along with just . . . life?

Yeah, this anon likely just isn't socially competent (and given "incredible toxic" "socializations" and "you're entire experience", high probability they're a foreigner without a great grasp of English, which is rarely likely to lead to you coming under a partner's wing).

Thanks for confirming for the rest of us that that place is in fact incredibly toxic. That's really disgusting stuff, and I feel bad for anybody who ends up stuck working with (or even just in the presence of) either of you.

Dude, it's just accurate. Partners looking for associates to bring under their wing and move up the ranks are looking for the skills that allow them to generate more revenue--AKA business development skills. Social graces, attractiveness, and knowledge of the english language are all significant net values in all of these things (also we are talking about attorneys here, so the minimum standards for the first two ain't exactly high). Clients want lawyers who are easy to get along with, and partners want the same from their associates.

I'm the guy you were responding to, and I 100% agree with your post.

Just make sure not to complain when minorities and women and minorities get promoted first because clients demand them on their teams.

Sure? Why is this relevant to the conversation? I think you think you're getting some kind of dunk in but I really don't see what your point is.

My impression as a SA at the Chicago office was that the Chicago Rx SAs and attorneys were all very nice and very smart. It seems that they all got along well, and I didn't hear any gossip about partners playing favorites with associates or any summers being treated differently than others. Everybody seemed to have a good time.

There did seem to be some toxicity in the corporate group in that I was honest to god some surprised that some of these summers got job offers in the first place from Kirkland. One girl would always try to pass off her work to others, and was such a suck-up to partners that it made me want to vomit. A lot of Chads in that group too.

I mean, isn't being a suck up a pretty good strategy? Kiss up and kick down, bb.

[Anonymous User]

Do people in KE Restructuring really think they have a realistic shot at SP? At most, they are making 1-2 per year (sometimes none) with clear pref for women/minorities (for good reason) and the number of NSPs has ballooned as the business has gone down a bit.

KE restructuring is great for a lot of reasons, and making share partner is not one of them.