Does Anyone Know How to Get Over Law School Butt Hurt? Forum

[Phil Brooks]

I think there's *something* to be said about wealth and scholarship. We've all seen on these boards the kids that say "money is not a factor" when choosing schools. If the parents can swing it, they'll pay sticker even if it's not the smartest thing to do. Kids who don't have parents that can swing it are more debt-conscious and are more likely to cop that scholly than pay sticker.

However it's not enough of a correlation to say facially "ah. scholly. must be a poor." In the context of hiring, it's completely irrelevant.

also lol @ bunch of patherns sitting around talking about European castles. that's some Mark Twain shit right there.

Why? If two candidates got the same law degree, wouldn't you prefer the candidate that got the degree for $250k less? Hasn't that candidate shown himself able to accomplish the same amount with less, thereby being more efficient?

[sublime]

I think there's *something* to be said about wealth and scholarship. We've all seen on these boards the kids that say "money is not a factor" when choosing schools. If the parents can swing it, they'll pay sticker even if it's not the smartest thing to do. Kids who don't have parents that can swing it are more debt-conscious and are more likely to cop that scholly than pay sticker.

However it's not enough of a correlation to say facially "ah. scholly. must be a poor." In the context of hiring, it's completely irrelevant.

also lol @ bunch of patherns sitting around talking about European castles. that's some Mark Twain shit right there.

Why? If two candidates got the same law degree, wouldn't you prefer the candidate that got the degree for $250k less? Hasn't that candidate shown himself able to accomplish the same amount with less, thereby being more efficient?

Nobody cares at all, perhaps outside of prestigious named scholarships.

[elendinel]

I certainly wasn't poor, but as long as you're in the position to quit your job 1 month early before you start law school and have ~$3500 sitting around, you're good. Sure, poor people can't do that, but you don't have to be making 6 figs to do that either.

Well, there's also a cultural element to class - is it a thing in your family to even think that going to Europe is something you could/should do? That's about social class disconnected from literal cost.

Also, I think the whole point of the original analogy was simply that there are some people who haven't had the opportunity to go to Europe. Whether the people who have gone are rich or simply middle class seems to be nitpicking. (Also Americans are notoriously bad at identifying class differences and tend to identify everything as "middle class" even when quite a bit of wealth is involved.)

It is very interesting how many people are on here acting like you have to literally be in the 1% to be rich, when the median income in the U.S. is $56k.

Here's the thing about class, it is very different to fake unless you've done a good deal of research about it and have been part of it. But then again, this requires being deceitful.

I had a lunch with some firm folks once and all they wanted to talk about was castles they've visited in Europe. I have never been to Europe, so when I was asked, I simply said I hadn't been yet, but I was looking forward to visiting some of the places they had mentioned. Needless to say this was awkward for them (and for me) and they don't want to be surrounded by that. Well-off people don't want to feel guilty about their privilege, so they don't want to be near people who reminds them of that (of course this is an overgeneralization and it mostly applies to those who've always been well off).

This I definitely agree with. It's very hard to fake class long term and it does often shut you out of conversations (at best) or make people dislike you/think you're not social or a team player/etc. (at worst)

[pancakes3]

I think there's *something* to be said about wealth and scholarship. We've all seen on these boards the kids that say "money is not a factor" when choosing schools. If the parents can swing it, they'll pay sticker even if it's not the smartest thing to do. Kids who don't have parents that can swing it are more debt-conscious and are more likely to cop that scholly than pay sticker.

However it's not enough of a correlation to say facially "ah. scholly. must be a poor." In the context of hiring, it's completely irrelevant.

also lol @ bunch of patherns sitting around talking about European castles. that's some Mark Twain shit right there.

Why? If two candidates got the same law degree, wouldn't you prefer the candidate that got the degree for $250k less? Hasn't that candidate shown himself able to accomplish the same amount with less, thereby being more efficient?

Um, ok. Scholly or not could be used to make a decision at the margin, I suppose. However, the margin isn't between identical JDs.

It'd have to be identical JDs with identical GPAs, softs, and interviewing personalities. Good catch, bro.

[sublime]

Elendinel:I get that. I was speaking more to family wealth than income.

[PeanutsNJam]

Also, you know, the idea that, even if you have it, you can just blow $3500 on a vacation immediately before embarking on a $200k graduate program.

The $3500 spent is in lieu of your regular monthly expenses (rent, food, insurance, incidental expenses, entertainment, etc.). So you're "blowing" about 1k, which seems worth an entire month in Europe.

I also happened to have a big fat scholarship, which is what justified the trip for me, so it certainly wasn't a $200k graduate program.

My larger point is that not having gone to Europe isn't the social handicap people make it out to be, it doesn't brand you as a plebeian poor, and it doesn't mean that everybody who has gone to Europe is some spoiled silver-platter brat.

[dixiecupdrinking]

Also, you know, the idea that, even if you have it, you can just blow $3500 on a vacation immediately before embarking on a $200k graduate program.

The $3500 spent is in lieu of your regular monthly expenses (rent, food, insurance, incidental expenses, entertainment, etc.). So you're "blowing" about 1k, which seems worth an entire month in Europe.

I also happened to have a big fat scholarship, which is what justified the trip for me, so it certainly wasn't a $200k graduate program.

My larger point is that not having gone to Europe isn't the social handicap people make it out to be, it doesn't brand you as a plebeian poor, and it doesn't mean that everybody who has gone to Europe is some spoiled silver-platter brat.

How would you know whether it's a handicap, as someone who has gone to Europe?

Did you know that 2/3 of Americans don't even have passports? You don't have to be a silver platter brat, but you're in rare company.

I don't think there is anything magical about visiting Europe, but the ability to drop thousands of dollars on international vacations is a privilege that many people don't have - - even many people who go to law school!

The fact that you might not think it is remarkable to spend a month in Europe speaks to the social class of people you associate with.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Also, you know, the idea that, even if you have it, you can just blow $3500 on a vacation immediately before embarking on a $200k graduate program.

The $3500 spent is in lieu of your regular monthly expenses (rent, food, insurance, incidental expenses, entertainment, etc.). So you're "blowing" about 1k, which seems worth an entire month in Europe.

I also happened to have a big fat scholarship, which is what justified the trip for me, so it certainly wasn't a $200k graduate program.

My larger point is that not having gone to Europe isn't the social handicap people make it out to be, it doesn't brand you as a plebeian poor, and it doesn't mean that everybody who has gone to Europe is some spoiled silver-platter brat.

You're nitpicking the one example and missing the broader point.

[PeanutsNJam]

Also, you know, the idea that, even if you have it, you can just blow $3500 on a vacation immediately before embarking on a $200k graduate program.

The $3500 spent is in lieu of your regular monthly expenses (rent, food, insurance, incidental expenses, entertainment, etc.). So you're "blowing" about 1k, which seems worth an entire month in Europe.

I also happened to have a big fat scholarship, which is what justified the trip for me, so it certainly wasn't a $200k graduate program.

My larger point is that not having gone to Europe isn't the social handicap people make it out to be, it doesn't brand you as a plebeian poor, and it doesn't mean that everybody who has gone to Europe is some spoiled silver-platter brat.

How would you know whether it's a handicap, as someone who has gone to Europe?

Did you know that 2/3 of Americans don't even have passports? You don't have to be a silver platter brat, but you're in rare company.

I don't think there is anything magical about visiting Europe, but the ability to drop thousands of dollars on international vacations is a privilege that many people don't have - - even many people who go to law school!

The fact that you might not think it is remarkable to spend a month in Europe speaks to the social class of people you associate with.

I know it's not a social handicap because as someone who has been to Europe, I don't think less of anyone who hasn't. You might be excluded from a conversation about Europe between people who have been, but I've never been to a live Superbowl/NBA Final/World Championship game, so I'm excluded from conversations between people who have. I've never been to a Beyonce concert, so I'm excluded from those conversations. It's not a "social handicap" to not have had certain experiences.

And it's not particularly remarkable to spend $3500 in one month (total) if you've saved up for it and plan to treat yourself before you start 1L. What you do during that month is up to you.

Where is this "drop thousands of dollars"? Do I need to remind you what "in lieu of" means?

My girlfriend didn't have a passport, but her family is certainly upper middle class. Growing up, they went to Disney once a year. Not having passports means nothing.

@Nony, my point is if someone deduces that a majority of law students are rich spoiled brats because they went to Europe, then that is a faulty conclusion. Looking around my school parking lot, any BMW/Audi is owned by an international student. The "median" car is like a 2010 civic (of the people who own cars; plenty of my friends don't own cars and bike/walk/public transit to school). Where are all these rich oil baron kids?

Yes, if you come from POVERTY, you will be unique in law school. But I don't understand people who blame their lack of friendship/interviewing skills/etc. on not having a combined family income of over 6 figs. I took a cab to my prom. I didn't own a car until my 2nd year of undergrad, and it was a 1997 Camary. I'd say my "class" (whatever you call it) is the majority in law school.

[sublime]

You seem to be taking this personally and it really wasn't meant to be. Nobody begrudges you for going to Europe. Like Nony said, it was an example.

[Nebby]

Also, you know, the idea that, even if you have it, you can just blow $3500 on a vacation immediately before embarking on a $200k graduate program.

The $3500 spent is in lieu of your regular monthly expenses (rent, food, insurance, incidental expenses, entertainment, etc.). So you're "blowing" about 1k, which seems worth an entire month in Europe.

I also happened to have a big fat scholarship, which is what justified the trip for me, so it certainly wasn't a $200k graduate program.

My larger point is that not having gone to Europe isn't the social handicap people make it out to be, it doesn't brand you as a plebeian poor, and it doesn't mean that everybody who has gone to Europe is some spoiled silver-platter brat.

How would you know whether it's a handicap, as someone who has gone to Europe?

Did you know that 2/3 of Americans don't even have passports? You don't have to be a silver platter brat, but you're in rare company.

I don't think there is anything magical about visiting Europe, but the ability to drop thousands of dollars on international vacations is a privilege that many people don't have - - even many people who go to law school!

The fact that you might not think it is remarkable to spend a month in Europe speaks to the social class of people you associate with.

I know it's not a social handicap because as someone who has been to Europe, I don't think less of anyone who hasn't. You might be excluded from a conversation about Europe between people who have been, but I've never been to a live Superbowl/NBA Final/World Championship game, so I'm excluded from conversations between people who have. I've never been to a Beyonce concert, so I'm excluded from those conversations. It's not a "social handicap" to not have had certain experiences.

And it's not particularly remarkable to spend $3500 in one month (total) if you've saved up for it and plan to treat yourself before you start 1L. What you do during that month is up to you.

Where is this "drop thousands of dollars"? Do I need to remind you what "in lieu of" means?

My girlfriend didn't have a passport, but her family is certainly upper middle class. Growing up, they went to Disney once a year. Not having passports means nothing.

@Nony, my point is if someone deduces that a majority of law students are rich spoiled brats because they went to Europe, then that is a faulty conclusion. Looking around my school parking lot, any BMW/Audi is owned by an international student. The "median" car is like a 2010 civic (of the people who own cars; plenty of my friends don't own cars and bike/walk/public transit to school). Where are all these rich oil baron kids?

Yes, if you come from POVERTY, you will be unique in law school. But I don't understand people who blame their lack of friendship/interviewing skills/etc. on not having a combined family income of over 6 figs. I took a cab to my prom. I didn't own a car until my 2nd year of undergrad, and it was a 1997 Camary. I'd say my "class" (whatever you call it) is the majority in law school.

Damn bruh drinking haterade from a silver chalice

[Nebby]

WUSTL is a pretty economically diverse school, after all

[sublime]

WUSTL is a pretty economically diverse school, after all

Seriously though, I would guess that being in flyover territory and their large scholarships probably result in the law school being in least slightly more economically diverse than some similar schools. Although I think pnj overstates it.

[dixiecupdrinking]

To be clear I don't think OP didn't get a biglaw job because s/he isn't rich, but I really bristle at this idea that you're just an ordinary middle class American if you take month-long European vacations or whatever else. Most people don't have that kind of opportunity. (It's great if you do! I pretty much do! I'm really lucky! I also don't go around telling people that I'm just some normal salt of the earth person, and there are a hell of a lot of people who would probably be uncomfortable or intimidated in a conversation with me involving money or things that you can only do if you have it.)

[pancakes3]

Does anyone know how to get over Eurotrip butt hurt?

[elendinel]

Elendinel:I get that. I was speaking more to family wealth than income.

I'm not sure what this is in reference to.

[AVBucks4239]

Also, you know, the idea that, even if you have it, you can just blow $3500 on a vacation immediately before embarking on a $200k graduate program.

The $3500 spent is in lieu of your regular monthly expenses (rent, food, insurance, incidental expenses, entertainment, etc.). So you're "blowing" about 1k, which seems worth an entire month in Europe.

I also happened to have a big fat scholarship, which is what justified the trip for me, so it certainly wasn't a $200k graduate program.

My larger point is that not having gone to Europe isn't the social handicap people make it out to be, it doesn't brand you as a plebeian poor, and it doesn't mean that everybody who has gone to Europe is some spoiled silver-platter brat.

Just going to chime in and say "in lieu of" is a total bullshit mental manipulation to convince yourself that a vacation to Europe isn't pretty damn expensive. Carry on.

[sublime]

Elendinel:I get that. I was speaking more to family wealth than income.

I'm not sure what this is in reference to.

Sorry, your point about median income being 56k etc

[sublime]

Also, you know, the idea that, even if you have it, you can just blow $3500 on a vacation immediately before embarking on a $200k graduate program.

The $3500 spent is in lieu of your regular monthly expenses (rent, food, insurance, incidental expenses, entertainment, etc.). So you're "blowing" about 1k, which seems worth an entire month in Europe.

I also happened to have a big fat scholarship, which is what justified the trip for me, so it certainly wasn't a $200k graduate program.

My larger point is that not having gone to Europe isn't the social handicap people make it out to be, it doesn't brand you as a plebeian poor, and it doesn't mean that everybody who has gone to Europe is some spoiled silver-platter brat.

Just going to chime in and say "in lieu of" is a total bullshit mental manipulation to convince yourself that a vacation to Europe isn't pretty damn expensive. Carry on.

Yea,I didn't want to quibble to much with the example, but most people have fixed monthly costs where they live, like rent.

[A. Nony Mouse]

PnJ, the point isn't that you (or anyone else who's gone to Europe) looks down on someone for not going to Europe, and no one even claimed that was the case. The point is just that class is real and creates differences that you can't simply will away. The person who hasn't gone feels different when they're the only person at the table who can't share that experience (and especially when everyone else at the table assumes everyone can go to Europe if they want).

I also agree that there are communities more and less hung up on this stuff. Moving back to the northeast after being in the Midwest and west for many years, people here do tend to care about things like school name and so on more than other places I've lived.

[Tiny Rick!]

OP this is what biglaw is like every day.

[nunumaster]

How do people feel about changing their social class? I.e. Coming from poverty to getting big law? I dropped atleast 8k traveling last year and I feel kind of guilty when I tell my parents I'm going on a trip.

[jchiles]

Does anyone know how to get over Eurotrip butt hurt?

Idk I liked the movie in high school but I went into it with low expectations

[pancakes3]

Does anyone know how to get over Eurotrip butt hurt?

Idk I liked the movie in high school but I went into it with low expectations

Peak Michelle Trachtenburg

[sublime]

How do people feel about changing their social class? I.e. Coming from poverty to getting big law? I dropped atleast 8k traveling last year and I feel kind of guilty when I tell my parents I'm going on a trip.

I was never impoverished, and my family was pretty solidly upper middle class growing up but in biglaw I do run into a lot of people from a much wealthier background. It really isn't a big deal, although I will say that I am friendly with most everybody at the firm, I prefer hanging out with my friends outside of work and a lot of that is diversity of all kinds, but most of them work in restaurants or are stagehands. I am so much more comfortable drinking well whiskey at a shitty bar with those people (they're like the people I grew up around) than I am at my firms cocktail happyhours with cheese plates, champagne, and single malt.

ETA: to be clear, I'm not really complaining or blaming anyone, as I really appreciate having friends that are more "normal people" but I've never been comfortable at higher class things, and most of my colleagues seem to be more comfortable and have more experience at that type of thing. I also have no idea if I answered your question or just rambled.