I got fired from Davis Polk & Wardwell LLP Forum

[krads153]

I don't know, I would absolutely hate to try to pull off the all-nighters of residency or whatever it is even in my 30s compared to in my 20s. You can choose not to do biglaw and avoid those hours, but you can't avoid them in medicine. They just get harder as you get older.

Also medical training is so lonnnnng. Starting over in your thirties to train for so long would suck (3 years of law school is nothing).

Not saying anyone in their 30s can't/shouldn't go to med school, but I do think it would be a much tougher road than law school.

It's 2 years of bookwork, 2 years of sort of chill rotations (I believe), and then 4 years of residency. Supposedly the four years of med school itself are comparatively chill since it's mainly pass/fail and seems like it'd be easier, at least hours wise, than biglaw. Residency would suck, but at least there's a light at the end of the tunnel, unlike in law. A lot of doctors seem to have reasonable hours post-residency, while lawyers seem to work long hours for life.

I thought law school was a ton of fun though, especially compared to working and I had lots and lots of free time in law school. I barely did any work and still did relatively well. Now I have very little free time in comparison. I think any kind of professional school would be more enjoyable for me than working, so the four years in med school might seem like fun to me. Plus your life post residency would probably be much more manageable than in law.

But, If I could go back in time, I wouldn't do either, to be honest.

[84651846190]

I don't know, I would absolutely hate to try to pull off the all-nighters of residency or whatever it is even in my 30s compared to in my 20s. You can choose not to do biglaw and avoid those hours, but you can't avoid them in medicine. They just get harder as you get older.

Also medical training is so lonnnnng. Starting over in your thirties to train for so long would suck (3 years of law school is nothing).

Not saying anyone in their 30s can't/shouldn't go to med school, but I do think it would be a much tougher road than law school.

No doubt that the path is more difficult for med, but where the path leads is much more palatable than a life ruined by the practice of law.

Residency is horrible in many cases, but anything is doable with the end in sight. There is never any end in sight for the practice of law (i.e., no one ever really "makes it" in the sense of having job security). Even rainmakers constantly have to work at maintaining dominance/competency. For med, all you have to do is not commit malpractice, which is pretty damn easy for most docs who are usually just cranking out 300k+ of routine exams or surgeries.

[Hutz_and_Goodman]

If you talk to doctors who you know (ie they are being candid) there are many of the same complInts as law: long hours, huge debt, work/life balance. They do not have the same issue with job security, but have a more significant issue with malpractice claims. TCR is if you want considerable free time, lack of stress it is very hard to also make six figures or more.

[84651846190]

If you talk to doctors who you know (ie they are being candid) there are many of the same complInts as law: long hours, huge debt, work/life balance. They do not have the same issue with job security, but have a more significant issue with malpractice claims. TCR is if you want considerable free time, lack of stress it is very hard to also make six figures or more.

Doctors are full of shit, though. All of my relatives and friends who are docs are in really good shape and have plenty of time for their golf game. Malpractice insurance may be more expensive but does not change the fact that most docs are making something like twice as much as the average attorney. Docs who complain about the hours are usually the ones working night shift for ER/OB, but even they have an inordinate amount of free time compared to biglawyers.

[DrRighteous]

Brother-in-law is a surgeon. Sister works in big law. Sister's life is way easier and she has way, way more free time, but she was worse off than he is before she lateraled. It all depends on what your specialty is, where you work, and who you work with. Agree with Hutz_and_Goodman that 6 figure jobs are generally stressful & involve little free time.

[rpupkin]

If you talk to doctors who you know (ie they are being candid) there are many of the same complInts as law: long hours, huge debt, work/life balance. They do not have the same issue with job security, but have a more significant issue with malpractice claims. TCR is if you want considerable free time, lack of stress it is very hard to also make six figures or more.

Doctors are full of shit, though. All of my relatives and friends who are docs are in really good shape and have plenty of time for their golf game. Malpractice insurance may be more expensive but does not change the fact that most docs are making something like twice as much as the average attorney.

Is that right? I know that surgeons (and some specialists) make bank, but I was surprised to learn how little many MDs actually make. I'm sure the average doctor makes more than the average lawyer, but my sense is that it's more like 1.5X as much.

[itbdvorm]

Dude a "decent" mid-level/senior is saying a lot. Their work product and skills are on par with everyone else - they probably just haven't played the office politics as well or don't have the connections to land the big clients. If you're a mid-level/senior at one of these firms and you can't get the job done right you won't have a job because that means someone else, i.e., the partner, is picking up the slack. Doing a good enough job and doing a spectacular job is a really fine line that goes unnoticed most of the time.

Much easier to suck as a junior than as a mid-level/senior where there isn't anyone else above you to pick up the slack besides the partner.

The first paragraph is not even close to accurate.

I have good people below me to whom I can delegate things to and I know I barely need to look, people below me to whom I know I can delegate some things to and they'll get right and others they'll get wrong, people below me to whom I can delegate things to and need to look at everything (but at least are being productive) and people who will mark up an agreement and you won't be able to tell which party they were trying to represent.

The first group has a shot at being elevated to something. The second group probably doesn't, but could, and could last forever in any economy. The third group would not have a long-term career were we less busy, but in this environment I am happy to have their help. The last group is getting fired soon.

We are in an environment right now where "someone else" needs to pick up the slack (much) more often than usual due to a combination of too much work / not enough resources. This is prevalent at nearly every top firm in NYC, and is frankly the reason why the folks in the last group are still here rather than having been weeded out long ago.

As for Desert Fox's comment "But there are situations where the firm is super busy but your group only has room for 2 senior associates and there are 4 of you. Two of you are done here. No matter what." - this is rarely going to be the case. The real dynamic is tougher to sketch out, but it's really based upon the group / firm as a whole. If the firm is super busy and all 4 senior associates have "enough" to do, more likely than not they'll keep the 2 who aren't going to make it as long as possible. A competent (or better) senior associate is a luxury.

[84651846190]

http://www.bls.gov/ooh/healthcare/mobil ... rgeons.htm

http://www.bls.gov/ooh/legal/mobile/lawyers.htm

[Johann]

If you talk to doctors who you know (ie they are being candid) there are many of the same complInts as law: long hours, huge debt, work/life balance. They do not have the same issue with job security, but have a more significant issue with malpractice claims. TCR is if you want considerable free time, lack of stress it is very hard to also make six figures or more.

20% of the american population will have a top 2% income at some point in their lives ($250k). there are TONS of jobs that pay 6 figures. the problem is uncreative dimwits think law and medicine is the only way to do it. grow some balls and make your own fortune.

[84651846190]

If you talk to doctors who you know (ie they are being candid) there are many of the same complInts as law: long hours, huge debt, work/life balance. They do not have the same issue with job security, but have a more significant issue with malpractice claims. TCR is if you want considerable free time, lack of stress it is very hard to also make six figures or more.

Doctors are full of shit, though. All of my relatives and friends who are docs are in really good shape and have plenty of time for their golf game. Malpractice insurance may be more expensive but does not change the fact that most docs are making something like twice as much as the average attorney.

Is that right? I know that surgeons (and some specialists) make bank, but I was surprised to learn how little many MDs actually make. I'm sure the average doctor makes more than the average lawyer, but my sense is that it's more like 1.5X as much.

See my links above (sorry, on mobile). Primary care docs make 2x and other docs make 3x what an average attorney makes.

[Desert Fox]

[Johann]

Dude a "decent" mid-level/senior is saying a lot. Their work product and skills are on par with everyone else - they probably just haven't played the office politics as well or don't have the connections to land the big clients. If you're a mid-level/senior at one of these firms and you can't get the job done right you won't have a job because that means someone else, i.e., the partner, is picking up the slack. Doing a good enough job and doing a spectacular job is a really fine line that goes unnoticed most of the time.

Much easier to suck as a junior than as a mid-level/senior where there isn't anyone else above you to pick up the slack besides the partner.

The first paragraph is not even close to accurate.

I have good people below me to whom I can delegate things to and I know I barely need to look, people below me to whom I know I can delegate some things to and they'll get right and others they'll get wrong, people below me to whom I can delegate things to and need to look at everything (but at least are being productive) and people who will mark up an agreement and you won't be able to tell which party they were trying to represent.

The first group has a shot at being elevated to something. The second group probably doesn't, but could, and could last forever in any economy. The third group would not have a long-term career were we less busy, but in this environment I am happy to have their help. The last group is getting fired soon.

We are in an environment right now where "someone else" needs to pick up the slack (much) more often than usual due to a combination of too much work / not enough resources. This is prevalent at nearly every top firm in NYC, and is frankly the reason why the folks in the last group are still here rather than having been weeded out long ago.

As for Desert Fox's comment "But there are situations where the firm is super busy but your group only has room for 2 senior associates and there are 4 of you. Two of you are done here. No matter what." - this is rarely going to be the case. The real dynamic is tougher to sketch out, but it's really based upon the group / firm as a whole. If the firm is super busy and all 4 senior associates have "enough" to do, more likely than not they'll keep the 2 who aren't going to make it as long as possible. A competent (or better) senior associate is a luxury.

Do you think most midlevels and seniors know where they stand? Do at least the good ones know they are an asset to the firm - not necessarily at the level of being able to accurately peg their partnership chances, but just from a fairly general standpoint of (1) I add value to the firm and my departure would be a little sad; (2) Neutral, or (3) I suck and the firm would push me out but for this good economy?

[Desert Fox]

[84651846190]

but you probably aren't an average attorney, v20bro. Where did you lateral to?

BIGFED

[Desert Fox]

[84651846190]

but you probably aren't an average attorney, v20bro. Where did you lateral to?

BIGFED

You cop dat GS14?

yeah man

[Desert Fox]

[itbdvorm]

Dude a "decent" mid-level/senior is saying a lot. Their work product and skills are on par with everyone else - they probably just haven't played the office politics as well or don't have the connections to land the big clients. If you're a mid-level/senior at one of these firms and you can't get the job done right you won't have a job because that means someone else, i.e., the partner, is picking up the slack. Doing a good enough job and doing a spectacular job is a really fine line that goes unnoticed most of the time.

Much easier to suck as a junior than as a mid-level/senior where there isn't anyone else above you to pick up the slack besides the partner.

The first paragraph is not even close to accurate.

I have good people below me to whom I can delegate things to and I know I barely need to look, people below me to whom I know I can delegate some things to and they'll get right and others they'll get wrong, people below me to whom I can delegate things to and need to look at everything (but at least are being productive) and people who will mark up an agreement and you won't be able to tell which party they were trying to represent.

The first group has a shot at being elevated to something. The second group probably doesn't, but could, and could last forever in any economy. The third group would not have a long-term career were we less busy, but in this environment I am happy to have their help. The last group is getting fired soon.

We are in an environment right now where "someone else" needs to pick up the slack (much) more often than usual due to a combination of too much work / not enough resources. This is prevalent at nearly every top firm in NYC, and is frankly the reason why the folks in the last group are still here rather than having been weeded out long ago.

As for Desert Fox's comment "But there are situations where the firm is super busy but your group only has room for 2 senior associates and there are 4 of you. Two of you are done here. No matter what." - this is rarely going to be the case. The real dynamic is tougher to sketch out, but it's really based upon the group / firm as a whole. If the firm is super busy and all 4 senior associates have "enough" to do, more likely than not they'll keep the 2 who aren't going to make it as long as possible. A competent (or better) senior associate is a luxury.

Do you think most midlevels and seniors know where they stand? Do at least the good ones know they are an asset to the firm - not necessarily at the level of being able to accurately peg their partnership chances, but just from a fairly general standpoint of (1) I add value to the firm and my departure would be a little sad; (2) Neutral, or (3) I suck and the firm would push me out but for this good economy?

I think it varies dramatically from firm to firm. The really tricky part is if you're at a place like DPW (passive aggressive, no one ever says anything mean) or Sullivan/KE (yelling is encouraged, people say crazy stuff). My guess is those are the places where reality and perception gap the most.

For what it's worth, Desert Fox, I have known exactly where I stand at my firm for a very long time.

[krads153]

If you talk to doctors who you know (ie they are being candid) there are many of the same complInts as law: long hours, huge debt, work/life balance. They do not have the same issue with job security, but have a more significant issue with malpractice claims. TCR is if you want considerable free time, lack of stress it is very hard to also make six figures or more.

Doctors are full of shit, though. All of my relatives and friends who are docs are in really good shape and have plenty of time for their golf game. Malpractice insurance may be more expensive but does not change the fact that most docs are making something like twice as much as the average attorney.

Is that right? I know that surgeons (and some specialists) make bank, but I was surprised to learn how little many MDs actually make. I'm sure the average doctor makes more than the average lawyer, but my sense is that it's more like 1.5X as much.

Average doctor is a family care physician, who probably makes like 200k on average. I think 70% or so spots in residency are for family med., etc. I think family med physicians on average work pretty easy hours (40 hours a week or less). If you're paying for med school on your own, then medicine may not be financially worth it these days (at least with the average outcome).

Surgeons are an extreme example because they work the most hours out of all docs, and it doesn't get better. They get paid way, way more than the average doc though.

[rpupkin]

See my links above (sorry, on mobile). Primary care docs make 2x and other docs make 3x what an average attorney makes.

According to the links you posted, median pay for a lawyer is $113.5K; median pay for a physician is $187.2K. That's consistent with what I imagined.

[bearsfan23]

If you talk to doctors who you know (ie they are being candid) there are many of the same complInts as law: long hours, huge debt, work/life balance. They do not have the same issue with job security, but have a more significant issue with malpractice claims. TCR is if you want considerable free time, lack of stress it is very hard to also make six figures or more.

Doctors are full of shit, though. All of my relatives and friends who are docs are in really good shape and have plenty of time for their golf game. Malpractice insurance may be more expensive but does not change the fact that most docs are making something like twice as much as the average attorney. Docs who complain about the hours are usually the ones working night shift for ER/OB, but even they have an inordinate amount of free time compared to biglawyers.

You have zero idea what you're talking about. That might be the most uninformed, BS post in the history of TLS.

Doctors, on average, have far far more debt than the average law student, and have no way to pay it off until residency/fellowships are over. Most medical students now will have more than $500k in debt before they can practice on their own. Even primary care doctors work far more hours than the average attorney. It's not a 40 hour a week job. Just dealing with insurance companies/forms can take doctors 40 hours a week now.

But I'm glad having 1 or 2 relatives who probably went to school 25 years ago makes you think you're the expert.

[Hutz_and_Goodman]

The very very high paying physician jobs are very hard to get, even for doctors. There are like 20,000 surgeons in the U.S. (cannot remember exact figure). So these people have unicorn outcomes equivalent to big law partner in nyc.

[Johann]

If you talk to doctors who you know (ie they are being candid) there are many of the same complInts as law: long hours, huge debt, work/life balance. They do not have the same issue with job security, but have a more significant issue with malpractice claims. TCR is if you want considerable free time, lack of stress it is very hard to also make six figures or more.

Doctors are full of shit, though. All of my relatives and friends who are docs are in really good shape and have plenty of time for their golf game. Malpractice insurance may be more expensive but does not change the fact that most docs are making something like twice as much as the average attorney. Docs who complain about the hours are usually the ones working night shift for ER/OB, but even they have an inordinate amount of free time compared to biglawyers.

You have zero idea what you're talking about. That might be the most uninformed, BS post in the history of TLS.

Doctors, on average, have far far more debt than the average law student, and have no way to pay it off until residency/fellowships are over. Most medical students now will have more than $500k in debt before they can practice on their own. Even primary care doctors work far more hours than the average attorney. It's not a 40 hour a week job. Just dealing with insurance companies/forms can take doctors 40 hours a week now.

But I'm glad having 1 or 2 relatives who probably went to school 25 years ago makes you think you're the expert.

Doctors also qualify for 0% housing loans while in residency and have other pretty awesome prgorams that aren't available to any other profession. They have career stability. They have the option of a 40 hour work week making low six figures by basically teaching at a teaching hospital immediately after graduating and passing boards without working a day. Their salaries ramp up considerably faster than lawyers, and they can make lots of money in low cost ofl iving areas and basically move anywhere in the US there is a hospital rather than choose between 3 big cities. They work a lot but when they are not at work, they are not at work unlike lawyers. I'm not saying being a doctor is all that great but just looking at the numbers its more lucrative than law.

[jbagelboy]

The very very high paying physician jobs are very hard to get, even for doctors. There are like 20,000 surgeons in the U.S. (cannot remember exact figure). So these people have unicorn outcomes equivalent to big law partner in nyc.

this is what I came here to say. When we're talking about physicians starting careers in high end surgery work -- neurosurgery, vascular surgery, advanced plastic surgery, small bone surgery (like extremities), the apt comparison isn't a first year associate in biglaw. It's more like a junior partner at a V100, in terms of investment of time, specialization, and statistical likelihood compared to the median of the profession. If we're speaking of the fanciest fellowships, like Harvard Hand, that lead to the big $500,000 doctor paychecks, that's basically like talking about SCOTUS clerk outcomes. By contrast family doctors in small towns and government employees will almost certainly make less than $200k, just like small firm attorneys representing SMEs and state DAs.

the classic TLS strawman of comparing every other career and option to "$160K first year associate" has to stop. you're only a first year for one year (and your all in comp isn't even $160, it's $175k). stop glamorizing physicians, who have to go to school for way longer and only make more money than very, very junior average T14 grads. And as for hours worked, the hardest working person I know is not a lawyer, its an internist (my SOs mother).

[BiglawAssociate]

Being a doctor and lawyer both suck big hard donkey balls. People making big money generally don't do either. Both outcomes generally lead to a very mediocre middle class existence (or poor outcome, as in law).