DF Thread Forum

[Desert Fox]

this circle-jerk is awesome.

1) many biglaw firms have armies of contract attorneys doing the doc review, so the junior associates are...not

2) If you would like to be an attorney for 25-30 years, what's wrong with slowly building up each component skill of the job? So you, third year shit law attorney would "smoke" a 3rd year BL associate in court. Who cares? He'll smoke you in 10 years (when he's probably lateraled to your market), make more money doing it and have a better grasp on how to organize a large complex litigation, because he's done all aspects of it.

3) In general, how about a little debate on this site, instead of the DF makes stupid claim --> people lap it up --> rinse --> repeat

What is there to debate? He's 100% correct.

My experience after less than 1 month on the job conflicts with this

Regale us with your biglit war stories.

[patogordo]

somehow i remember this thread originally being "You will get 0 substantive trial experience as BL Associate"

gl lit people

- tax

(not a real lawyer)

okay, np, still make 160k + bonus

- tax

(doesn't care about not being a real lawyer)

(shamefully posts anonymously)

[Anonymous User]

Regale us with your biglit war stories.

Haha. No thanks. Just saying.

Didn't you say you do a lot of research and writing? How is that "0 substantive work"?

[Desert Fox]

Regale us with your biglit war stories.

Haha. No thanks. Just saying.

Didn't you say you do a lot of research and writing? How is that "0 substantive work"?

I can WRITE THE FUCK out of a memorandum to file. But who gives a shiiiit.

[patogordo]

hey now, sometimes you get real lit work like "we need some motions to compel to balance out the hearing"

[Desert Fox]

You basically have to be lucky in big law.

My hierarchy is Partner -> Of counsel ->midlevel -> me and a guy one year ahead of me. There will be a guy one year below me soon.

The of counsel is the partners right hand man. He in charge of writing everything and gets a chance to argue stuff in court.

Midlevel is the of counsels right hand man. He originally was the only junior for 2 years. He got a ton of great experience as a junior, but has stagnated. Sure, he can second chair all the depos. Take first crack at half the briefs. He is on all the big cases.

But he doesn't delegate anything but the total bitchwork because he wants to keep as much to himself as possible.

Someone has got to leave or the partner has to take on a bunch more work.

[dixiecupdrinking]

Regale us with your biglit war stories.

Haha. No thanks. Just saying.

Didn't you say you do a lot of research and writing? How is that "0 substantive work"?

That's not substantive trial experience.

You'll write some memos and help on briefs. Nobody disputes that. You probably won't take the lead on anything in terms of strategy or execution, or do anything inside a courtroom. This isn't a complaint, just an observation. That's the nature of the job.

ETA: It's also kind of nice not being that important because it's easier to take time off etc.

[patogordo]

But he doesn't delegate anything but the total bitchwork because he wants to keep as much to himself as possible.

this is basically the entire problem

[Tanicius]

Sure, he can second chair all the depos.

lol'ed

[dixiecupdrinking]

But he doesn't delegate anything but the total bitchwork because he wants to keep as much to himself as possible.

this is basically the entire problem

Also hard to understand, I would be pawning off as much as possible. But maybe with that attitude I won't make it long enough in BL to be in that position.

[Desert Fox]

But he doesn't delegate anything but the total bitchwork because he wants to keep as much to himself as possible.

this is basically the entire problem

Also hard to understand, I would be pawning off as much as possible. But maybe with that attitude I won't make it long enough in BL to be in that position.

In part, its because biglaw makes you justify your existence in the firm. You are responsible for your own work load. So people become very protective of work. This is even worse if the person bills like a peckish toddler. My midlevel is at work literally 12 hours a day, and somehow is barely on track for hours.

Also, many biglawyers are the type of people who feel compelled to do as much as possible themselves.

And some are just complacent in their role.

Part of it is that nobody really teaches midlevels to manage people. Hell, you really aren't told to manage. It took mine like 5 months before he realized he could even delegate work.

[dixiecupdrinking]

But he doesn't delegate anything but the total bitchwork because he wants to keep as much to himself as possible.

this is basically the entire problem

Also hard to understand, I would be pawning off as much as possible. But maybe with that attitude I won't make it long enough in BL to be in that position.

In part, its because biglaw makes you justify your existence in the firm. You are responsible for your own work load. So people become very protective of work. This is even worse if the person bills like a peckish toddler. My midlevel is at work literally 12 hours a day, and somehow is barely on track for hours.

Also, many biglawyers are the type of people who feel compelled to do as much as possible themselves.

And some are just complacent in their role.

Part of it is that nobody really teaches midlevels to manage people. Hell, you really aren't told to manage. It took mine like 5 months before he realized he could even delegate work.

All quite astute but the bolded is the truest/worst IME.

[baal hadad]

hey now, sometimes you get real lit work like "we need some motions to compel to balance out the hearing"

I drafted a motion to compel today

[patogordo]

hey now, sometimes you get real lit work like "we need some motions to compel to balance out the hearing"

I drafted a motion to compel today

want to write another one?

[baal hadad]

hey now, sometimes you get real lit work like "we need some motions to compel to balance out the hearing"

I drafted a motion to compel today

want to write another one?

Absolutely not

Compelling discovery is one of the worst parts of lit

[kalvano]

Transactional dude who is going to spend all day working with clients and other side's counsel checking in to chortle at how lit people are both bitching because they get no experience while at the same time saying lit people are the only real lawyers.

[Desert Fox]

Transactional dude who is going to spend all day working with clients and other side's counsel checking in to chortle at how lit people are both bitching because they get no experience while at the same time saying lit people are the only real lawyers.

We might be shitty lawyers, but we are lawyers.

[Anonymous User]

I'd say this varies by firm and team. I'm one year in, and I've second-chaired depos, written the books for and second-chaired directs and crosses at trial, drafted parts of pre- and post-trial briefs, managed experts in preparation for trial, etc. But I recognize not all first-years get to try that. Not all first years get to bill 3,000+ hours in the first year, either. I'd take a little less substantive responsibility at the moment.

*Anon because I've been outed before when talking about work.

[jimmythecatdied6]

What an incredibly hilarious topic. Do people really think you get experience as a BL associate? You are there for a reason: churn, burn, etc.

But to think that I need "courtroom experience" (or whatever the fuck that is) in order to do well in the practice of law is just laughable. Federal court is 100% motions practice on the civil side, and your brief will do all of the talking for you. You DO NOT need to have any competence whatsoever in arguing that motion. You might lose some credibility with the court if you argue poorly, but then again, the court will likely just assume that you didn't write the brief anyways. I also really love how attorneys in shit law think they would "school" someone in court... maybe, if you didn't have to write.

Learning the ropes of discovery is definitely worth doing, if you can. Beyond that, though, I'm not sure what else people would want out of their big law experiences other than money.

[kalvano]

Transactional dude who is going to spend all day working with clients and other side's counsel checking in to chortle at how lit people are both bitching because they get no experience while at the same time saying lit people are the only real lawyers.

We might be shitty lawyers, but we are lawyers.

I'll school you in arguing over period placement, bro.

[ymmv]

Transactional dude who is going to spend all day working with clients and other side's counsel checking in to chortle at how lit people are both bitching because they get no experience while at the same time saying lit people are the only real lawyers.

We might be shitty lawyers, but we are lawyers.

I'll school you in arguing over period placement, bro.

TBF a monkey with a keyboard could school DF in editing matters.

[baal hadad]

Partner just told me my mtn to compel was "good."

As a litigator, this is what I live for

[patogordo]

Partner just told me my mtn to compel was "good."

As a litigator, this is what I live for

(they produce the documents tomorrow)

[DELG]

is arguing a motion not "trial experience"

what's so fucking great about juries, they're sexist racist morons

[smallfirmassociate]

Partner just told me my mtn to compel was "good."

As a litigator, this is what I live for

(they produce the documents tomorrow)

Hahaha. Well said.