What firms would you take over Cravath? Forum

[Morgan12Oak]

Not flame. It's just funny that all y'all go to your undergrads and weigh rankings heavily, go to law schools based on rankings and all of a sudden when looking at law firms everyones like RANKINGS DON'T MATTER.

Like things are ranked for a reason. something that is ranked 1 is better than 2, etc. It's actually common sense that rankings go in order from 1 being the best and things get worse as the numbers get better. Like that's true... objectively.

Now going to the next point, where rankings become LESS important is where you are looking at a SPECIFIC area of law where the rankings are not indicative; i.e. as you are well aware because of the SRZ poster, hedge fund work at SRZ

What do you expect though? People on here are used to being the best over the course of their entire life, and now that they have been in a highly competitive environment + had to actually interview for a job, maybe they didn't get a V2, V5, V10 or whatever offer. They need to justify this to themselves, and even though its a pointless debate with no clear conclusion, they want to convince others that they are in a better position.

Agree with this. That's why i find this whole "pick the right firm/culture/fit" flame really weird. It's honestly the most elaborate flame i've ever seen but it works. I love it when someone posts my V5 was the perfect fit for me, so glad i went here and not the other V5 as if they stepped into some universe where they got to experience what life would be like as a first year there too lmao.

[jbagelboy]

Not flame. It's just funny that all y'all go to your undergrads and weigh rankings heavily, go to law schools based on rankings and all of a sudden when looking at law firms everyones like RANKINGS DON'T MATTER.

Like things are ranked for a reason. something that is ranked 1 is better than 2, etc. It's actually common sense that rankings go in order from 1 being the best and things get worse as the numbers get better. Like that's true... objectively.

Now going to the next point, where rankings become LESS important is where you are looking at a SPECIFIC area of law where the rankings are not indicative; i.e. as you are well aware because of the SRZ poster, hedge fund work at SRZ

What do you expect though? People on here are used to being the best over the course of their entire life, and now that they have been in a highly competitive environment + had to actually interview for a job, maybe they didn't get a V2, V5, V10 or whatever offer. They need to justify this to themselves, and even though its a pointless debate with no clear conclusion, they want to convince others that they are in a better position.

No, wrong. Many of us are debating between options within the V5/V15/whatever, not rationalizing not getting offers. The point is that vault shouldn't matter at that level of granularity

Also lol @ morgan for both preaching the sanctity of vault and lauding Shulte as CSM/DPW at V80 or whatever it may be this year

[Morgan12Oak]

How tall were your interviewers at Cravath and how did that influence your decision-making process? And when are firms going to start listing height on their attorney bios? I'd like to know just how prestigiously tall all of the partners are before making my final decision.

Don't want to cross threads here, but anyone will tell you height is important. Ignoring that is like ignoring the basic tenets of what it is to be human.

[Anonymous User]

Not flame. It's just funny that all y'all go to your undergrads and weigh rankings heavily, go to law schools based on rankings and all of a sudden when looking at law firms everyones like RANKINGS DON'T MATTER.

Like things are ranked for a reason. something that is ranked 1 is better than 2, etc. It's actually common sense that rankings go in order from 1 being the best and things get worse as the numbers get better. Like that's true... objectively.

Now going to the next point, where rankings become LESS important is where you are looking at a SPECIFIC area of law where the rankings are not indicative; i.e. as you are well aware because of the SRZ poster, hedge fund work at SRZ

What do you expect though? People on here are used to being the best over the course of their entire life, and now that they have been in a highly competitive environment + had to actually interview for a job, maybe they didn't get a V2, V5, V10 or whatever offer. They need to justify this to themselves, and even though its a pointless debate with no clear conclusion, they want to convince others that they are in a better position.

This is 100% true. In fact, I have found myself doing it unintentionally when discussing firms with both fellow students and non law people. I am used to always being at the top of the class until law school where I am a little above median at t-14. I have found myself talking up my v100 callbacks and stressing how the vault rankings "don't matter" and that the firms I have callbacks at are the best at XYZ etc etc.

the fact of the matter is that all of the firms pay the same (for the most part), and do similar work, but it is naive and laughable to say the rankings mean literally nothing (at least for corporate work). Of course some firms have better practice groups than others but across the board the higher ranked firms are logically "better" than the lower ranked ones. That is not to say there is anything wrong with any of these firms. The majority of the AMlaw200 firms are objectively great firms and 95% of law students in the country would be on their knees in a second for the opportunity to work at one for half of the starting salary.

[Old Gregg]

How tall were your interviewers at Cravath and how did that influence your decision-making process? And when are firms going to start listing height on their attorney bios? I'd like to know just how prestigiously tall all of the partners are before making my final decision.

Don't want to cross threads here, but anyone will tell you height is important. Ignoring that is like ignoring the basic tenets of what it is to be human.

if you are for real, you're an idiot.

if you are a troll/flame, i want to know you and be your best friend. bravo.

[Old Gregg]

http://vimeo.com/6549224

[sideroxylon]

Morgan, can you give us all some interview advice? just general pointers and the like

[Morgan12Oak]

No, wrong. Many of us are debating between options within the V5/V15/whatever, not rationalizing not getting offers. The point is that vault shouldn't matter at that level of granularity

Also lol @ morgan for both preaching the sanctity of vault and lauding Shulte as CSM/DPW at V80 or whatever it may be this year

Are you even reading any of this or are you just trolling me? Vault rankings are 100% important if you're just considering firms generally with no guidance on practice areas. But, if you are set on hedge fund work, than Schulte is not CSM/DPW, but BETTER, since it is the BEST at hedge fund work. Similarly if you are set on lit you'd go to Williams and Connelly over like STB or something.

[Morgan12Oak]

Morgan, can you give us all some interview advice? just general pointers and the like

I dunno. For men, be tall. For everyone else, be personable. It's not a science. Love it when people have scripted answers in interviews. Interviews should not be a Q&A format.

[sideroxylon]

what would you think of a video resume?

[Old Gregg]

Morgan, can you give us all some interview advice? just general pointers and the like

I dunno. For men, be tall. For everyone else, be personable. It's not a science. Love it when people have scripted answers in interviews. Interviews should not be a Q&A format.

what about women in particular tho?

[sandiego222]

No, wrong. Many of us are debating between options within the V5/V15/whatever, not rationalizing not getting offers. The point is that vault shouldn't matter at that level of granularity

Also lol @ morgan for both preaching the sanctity of vault and lauding Shulte as CSM/DPW at V80 or whatever it may be this year

Are you even reading any of this or are you just trolling me? Vault rankings are 100% important if you're just considering firms generally with no guidance on practice areas. But, if you are set on hedge fund work, than Schulte is not CSM/DPW, but BETTER, since it is the BEST at hedge fund work. Similarly if you are set on lit you'd go to Williams and Connelly over like STB or something.

Is this even true though? Very few people people are going to go on to become a partner at the big law firm that they start at. Sure, maybe you can work in the best big law hedge fund practice group for 3-4 years. But to practice hedge funds work/ be hired be a hedge fund/ become a partner in a hedge fund practice, I would find it hard to believe that someone should pick Schulte over someone from Wachtell. I honestly don't know though, are hedge finds hiring these SRZ bros over Wachtell candidates? I think this is the whole reason certain firms are considered more prestigious than others.

[Morgan12Oak]

No, wrong. Many of us are debating between options within the V5/V15/whatever, not rationalizing not getting offers. The point is that vault shouldn't matter at that level of granularity

Also lol @ morgan for both preaching the sanctity of vault and lauding Shulte as CSM/DPW at V80 or whatever it may be this year

Are you even reading any of this or are you just trolling me? Vault rankings are 100% important if you're just considering firms generally with no guidance on practice areas. But, if you are set on hedge fund work, than Schulte is not CSM/DPW, but BETTER, since it is the BEST at hedge fund work. Similarly if you are set on lit you'd go to Williams and Connelly over like STB or something.

Is this even true though? Very few people people are going to go on to become a partner at the big law firm that they start at. Sure, maybe you can work in the best big law hedge fund practice group for 3-4 years. But to practice hedge funds work/ be hired be a hedge fund/ become a partner in a hedge fund practice, I would find it hard to believe that someone should pick Schulte over something like Wachtell. I honestly don't know though, are hedge finds hiring these SRZ bros over Wachtell candidates?

LMAO Wachtell for hedge funds. TY for this flame. FWIW, SRZ is the #1 feeder to Goldman Sachs.

[Morgan12Oak]

Morgan, can you give us all some interview advice? just general pointers and the like

I dunno. For men, be tall. For everyone else, be personable. It's not a science. Love it when people have scripted answers in interviews. Interviews should not be a Q&A format.

what about women in particular tho?

Be personable? It's generally the same as for men except being 6'5 isn't really as advantageous for a woman as it is for a man. Even if height isn't a huge deal from the interviewer, it helps give you self confidence too. I'm pretty short (5'10) but I wore shoes that gave me like 2 inch lift during interviewing.

[jbagelboy]

No, wrong. Many of us are debating between options within the V5/V15/whatever, not rationalizing not getting offers. The point is that vault shouldn't matter at that level of granularity

Also lol @ morgan for both preaching the sanctity of vault and lauding Shulte as CSM/DPW at V80 or whatever it may be this year

Are you even reading any of this or are you just trolling me? Vault rankings are 100% important if you're just considering firms generally with no guidance on practice areas. But, if you are set on hedge fund work, than Schulte is not CSM/DPW, but BETTER, since it is the BEST at hedge fund work. Similarly if you are set on lit you'd go to Williams and Connelly over like STB or something.

Is this even true though? Very few people people are going to go on to become a partner at the big law firm that they start at. Sure, maybe you can work in the best big law hedge fund practice group for 3-4 years. But to practice hedge funds work/ be hired be a hedge fund/ become a partner in a hedge fund practice, I would find it hard to believe that someone should pick Schulte over something like Wachtell. I honestly don't know though, are hedge finds hiring these SRZ bros over Wachtell candidates?

LMAO Wachtell for hedge funds. TY for this flame. FWIW, SRZ is the #1 feeder to Goldman Sachs.

who gives a fuck about goldman sachs

what is it with all these attorneys w/ banker envy

[sideroxylon]

but what about Sidley Austin???

I heard Sidley has been styling all over SRZ lately

[Old Gregg]

but what about Sidley Austin???

I heard Sidley has been styling all over SRZ lately

Sidley is like the San Antonio Spurs of hedge funds.

[wiz]

but what about Sidley Austin???

I heard Sidley has been styling all over SRZ lately

Sidley is like the San Antonio Spurs of hedge funds.

What NBA team is SRZ?

[Morgan12Oak]

but what about Sidley Austin???

I heard Sidley has been styling all over SRZ lately

Sidley is like the San Antonio Spurs of hedge funds.

What NBA team is SRZ?

Probably a Celtics/Lakers. Something that has a pedigree/known as being the best and not just for one year or a decade.

[SLS_AMG]

Not flame. It's just funny that all y'all go to your undergrads and weigh rankings heavily, go to law schools based on rankings and all of a sudden when looking at law firms everyones like RANKINGS DON'T MATTER.

Like things are ranked for a reason. something that is ranked 1 is better than 2, etc. It's actually common sense that rankings go in order from 1 being the best and things get worse as the numbers get better. Like that's true... objectively.

Now going to the next point, where rankings become LESS important is where you are looking at a SPECIFIC area of law where the rankings are not indicative; i.e. as you are well aware because of the SRZ poster, hedge fund work at SRZ

What do you expect though? People on here are used to being the best over the course of their entire life, and now that they have been in a highly competitive environment + had to actually interview for a job, maybe they didn't get a V2, V5, V10 or whatever offer. They need to justify this to themselves, and even though its a pointless debate with no clear conclusion, they want to convince others that they are in a better position.

Agree with this. That's why i find this whole "pick the right firm/culture/fit" flame really weird. It's honestly the most elaborate flame i've ever seen but it works. I love it when someone posts my V5 was the perfect fit for me, so glad i went here and not the other V5 as if they stepped into some universe where they got to experience what life would be like as a first year there too lmao.

You realize the same could be said for you too, right? Or are you legit this stupid? You haven't worked at multiple V5 firms so your knowledge of culture and fit being a flame is related only to the anecdotal experiences of the friends you don't have.

Also, you're a total moron for comparing Vault rankings to school rankings, which, for all their flaws, are actually based on objective criteria like LSAT/GPA and employment outcomes. Vault is nothing but a ranking of "prestige" by know-nothing associates like you from all across the country. And do you even know what prestige means? Because if you did you certainly wouldn't sit there saying it's an objective measure.

[ymmv]

Starting to be convinced that most of the Vault obsession occurs among those who aren't going to have that many choices among high-ranked firms to begin with.

[Morgan12Oak]

You realize the same could be said for you too, right? Or are you legit this stupid? You haven't worked at multiple V5 firms so your knowledge of culture and fit being a flame is related only to the anecdotal experiences of the friends you don't have.

Also, you're a total moron for comparing Vault rankings to school rankings, which, for all their flaws, are actually based on objective criteria like LSAT/GPA and employment outcomes. Vault is nothing but a ranking of "prestige" by know-nothing associates like you from all across the country. And do you even know what prestige means? Because if you did you certainly wouldn't sit there saying it's an objective measure.

(guy who picked a lower V firm over a higher V firm for fit, desperately trying to justify his decision, crying, losing hoap)

Yup, I know what prestige means. And FWIW a survey where associates have to rank something 1 to 10 and a compilation of such results in the form of a number to something like the thousandth of a decimal place is actually technically objective. And school rankings are also largely based on peer review which is precisely the same as vault rankings. Good call on the school rankings being based on "objective criteria like LSAT/GPA and employment outcomes" though. It's not as if a ton of schools hire their own grads and report that as employed.

[Morgan12Oak]

Starting to be convinced that most of the Vault obsession occurs among those who aren't going to have that many choices among high-ranked firms to begin with.

Yup, when you don't get the result you desire, make it so the result you desired is no longer desired.

[ymmv]

Starting to be convinced that most of the Vault obsession occurs among those who aren't going to have that many choices among high-ranked firms to begin with.

Yup, when you don't get the result you desire, make it so the result you desired is no longer desired.

Whoooosh.

[SLS_AMG]

You realize the same could be said for you too, right? Or are you legit this stupid? You haven't worked at multiple V5 firms so your knowledge of culture and fit being a flame is related only to the anecdotal experiences of the friends you don't have.

Also, you're a total moron for comparing Vault rankings to school rankings, which, for all their flaws, are actually based on objective criteria like LSAT/GPA and employment outcomes. Vault is nothing but a ranking of "prestige" by know-nothing associates like you from all across the country. And do you even know what prestige means? Because if you did you certainly wouldn't sit there saying it's an objective measure.

(guy who picked a lower V firm over a higher V firm for fit, desperately trying to justify his decision, crying, losing hoap)

Yup, I know what prestige means. And FWIW a survey where associates have to rank something 1 to 10 and a compilation of such results in the form of a number to something like the thousandth of a decimal place is actually technically objective. And school rankings are also largely based on peer review which is precisely the same as vault rankings. Good call on the school rankings being based on "objective criteria like LSAT/GPA and employment outcomes" though. It's not as if a ton of schools hire their own grads and report that as employed.

The Vault rankings are based 100% on what is a subjective assessment. The fact that those rankings are averaged and sorted by a third party doesn't make them objective. But that's not really the point.

How many people have come on this site and said they were glad they went with their gut or the firm that was the best fit? A lot. How many do you think have come on here and said they wish they'd picked a higher ranked firm? I haven't seen a single one.