"I'd like to work in biglaw for a while..." Forum

[IAFG]

TBF sometimes I fucking love my job. When it's 11 p.m. and I'm cranking out something that feels like it's gonna win the $1bn case it feels rad. Then I quickly sober up the next morning when the fascist shits all over it and makes me feel like I'm mentally handicapped.

Yeah there are bright spots. Even occasional happy days. Sometimes.

[Dr. Filth]

I am trying to think if anyone I know who was a biglaw paralegal was crazy enough to want to go back after law school.

there are a couple at school.

so if even the gunners at school ended up hating it after less than two years, how do the people that are completely bitch-made do? asking for a friend

[jbagelboy]

I am trying to think if anyone I know who was a biglaw paralegal was crazy enough to want to go back after law school.

Many of my friends in law school were biglaw paralegals and are headed back to large firms as associates. I can totally see it: why keep getting paid 1/4 the amount to work at the same place? Might not be a reasonable belief ex post, but it's easily understood from the outside looking in, so to speak.

Moreover, re: your earlier comment, not all WE was created equally shitty. You say "WE won't save you," and I can see that. But I'm talking about a very specific type of financial sector-driven service catering to the same industry demands (construction/real estate, energy/gas, pharmaceuticals, tech, commercial banking, auto/airline, ect) in an equally tight economy with a shifting client relations model (many of the billing/hiring issues and contraction impacting the legal market apply to billable consultants as well). Anyway, I'll drop it since that's clearly not the thrust of this thread, but I was hoping for commentary from someone who had worked in both.

[Mal Reynolds]

Special snowflakes abound.

[rayiner]

lol @ all these law students in the bargaining stage of grief.

What would you do differently IAFG? It seems like for high-level legal work on the civil side it is hard not to start with big law unless you 1) want to be a plaintiffs attorney 2) want to work for the govt 3) want to do PI 4) ??.

Am I wrong?

I'm not trying to talk anyone out of biglaw. But lol @ "generally liking the work." lol @ staying "several" years. lol @ "not bonus gunning." lol @ "establishing clear boundaries."

Half-life of a big law attorney is 3 years, so I do think staying "several years" is not implausible.

LOL @ "establishing clear boundaries" though.

[rpupkin]

Moreover, re: your earlier comment, not all WE was created equally shitty. You say "WE won't save you," and I can see that. But I'm talking about a very specific type of financial sector-driven service catering to the same industry demands (construction/real estate, energy/gas, pharmaceuticals, tech, commercial banking, auto/airline, ect) in an equally tight economy with a shifting client relations model (many of the billing/hiring issues and contraction impacting the legal market apply to billable consultants as well).

It's certainly possible that your prior work experience was as bad (or worse) than big law. I don't doubt that there are certain professionals--in certain sectors in certain offices who work for certain bosses--who are more miserable than the typical junior associate. But it sure seems like the life of a biglaw associate is more demanding and misery-inducing than the lives of most other professionals.

Fwiw, I don't think jbagelboy is suffering from special snowflake syndrome. If he's accurately describing his prior work experience, the demands sound roughly comparable to what you'll encounter as a junior associate. But for those of you working in big law, have you ever heard an associate say "my QOL is better in big law than it was in that job I did before law school"? I haven't.

[patogordo]

also, i'm not really sure what the point is. "i worked a horrible, miserable job before and i hated it so i quit and went to law school. is it possible that biglaw will only be equally miserable, and not more miserable, than my previous job?"

[Danger Zone]

lol @ all these law students in the bargaining stage of grief.

What would you do differently IAFG? It seems like for high-level legal work on the civil side it is hard not to start with big law unless you 1) want to be a plaintiffs attorney 2) want to work for the govt 3) want to do PI 4) ??.

Am I wrong?

I'm not trying to talk anyone out of biglaw. But lol @ "generally liking the work." lol @ staying "several" years. lol @ "not bonus gunning." lol @ "establishing clear boundaries."

Now we've moved the goal posts to somewhere reasonable.

[sublime]

..

[rayiner]

But for those of you working in big law, have you ever heard an associate say "my QOL is better in big law than it was in that job I did before law school"? I haven't.

A number of people in finance.

[ggocat]

I am trying to think if anyone I know who was a biglaw paralegal was crazy enough to want to go back after law school.

I worked 2 months as a biglaw litigation assistant during undergrad. All 9 of my jobs & internships since then have been government.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Real question: constant heckling from a shit mid-level project supervisor who was always bitter he couldn't be home with his newborn kid and felt like keeping me till 8:30PM would assuage his own bullshit guilt)

Not commenting more generally on how you'll find biglaw after that job because I have no idea, but keeping you till 8:30pm sounds like an early night in biglaw.

[84651846190]

lol @ all these law students in the bargaining stage of grief.

What would you do differently IAFG? It seems like for high-level legal work on the civil side it is hard not to start with big law unless you 1) want to be a plaintiffs attorney 2) want to work for the govt 3) want to do PI 4) ??.

Am I wrong?

I'm not trying to talk anyone out of biglaw. But lol @ "generally liking the work." lol @ staying "several" years. lol @ "not bonus gunning." lol @ "establishing clear boundaries."

Half-life of a big law attorney is 3 years, so I do think staying "several years" is not implausible.

LOL @ "establishing clear boundaries" though.

We had an associate who tried to "establish clear boundaries" or something to that effect by immediately telling partners/other associates what his/her desired schedule would be when first being assigned to a matter. He/she left the firm as a first-year. I'm not sure if it was a forced departure, but the associate was clearly miserable.

[Anonymous User]

Someone tried to ask how to "establish clear boundaries" at the last of the orientation meetings. The protracted silence as everyone tried not to blurt out "you don't!" was awkward.

[rayiner]

Real question: constant heckling from a shit mid-level project supervisor who was always bitter he couldn't be home with his newborn kid and felt like keeping me till 8:30PM would assuage his own bullshit guilt)

Not commenting more generally on how you'll find biglaw after that job because I have no idea, but keeping you till 8:30pm sounds like an early night in biglaw.

At least in litigation, 8:30 is not an "early night" in general. I worked at an NYC V10 before clerking, and the office was largely cleared out by 7:30 pm. If you don't waste a lot of time, the ideal "2,000 hour" schedule is 165 hours a month, or 9-7 with 75% efficiency 5 days a week. Of course, you'll rarely be lucky enough to have such a steady stream of work as to hit that ideal pace. Happiness in big law is about maneuvering to hit that pace. It involves both luck and tactics.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Real question: constant heckling from a shit mid-level project supervisor who was always bitter he couldn't be home with his newborn kid and felt like keeping me till 8:30PM would assuage his own bullshit guilt)

Not commenting more generally on how you'll find biglaw after that job because I have no idea, but keeping you till 8:30pm sounds like an early night in biglaw.

At least in litigation, 8:30 is not an "early night" in general. I worked at an NYC V10 before clerking, and the office was largely cleared out by 7:30 pm. If you don't waste a lot of time, the ideal "2,000 hour" schedule is 165 hours a month, or 9-7 with 75% efficiency 5 days a week. Of course, you'll rarely be lucky enough to have such a steady stream of work as to hit that ideal pace. Happiness in big law is about maneuvering to hit that pace. It involves both luck and tactics.

Good to know. What with the Late Worker and the stories about all nighters and Seamless dinners and cars home for when you stay late, I didn't think 8:30 was an especially late night. (I'm just an observer in all this, though.)

[rad lulz]

I did an all nighter the other wk bc I had an all day CLE to attend and I needed to get things done/not fall behind on billables

[rayiner]

Real question: constant heckling from a shit mid-level project supervisor who was always bitter he couldn't be home with his newborn kid and felt like keeping me till 8:30PM would assuage his own bullshit guilt)

Not commenting more generally on how you'll find biglaw after that job because I have no idea, but keeping you till 8:30pm sounds like an early night in biglaw.

At least in litigation, 8:30 is not an "early night" in general. I worked at an NYC V10 before clerking, and the office was largely cleared out by 7:30 pm. If you don't waste a lot of time, the ideal "2,000 hour" schedule is 165 hours a month, or 9-7 with 75% efficiency 5 days a week. Of course, you'll rarely be lucky enough to have such a steady stream of work as to hit that ideal pace. Happiness in big law is about maneuvering to hit that pace. It involves both luck and tactics.

Good to know. What with the Late Worker and the stories about all nighters and Seamless dinners and cars home for when you stay late, I didn't think 8:30 was an especially late night. (I'm just an observer in all this, though.)

If you're in corporate, that's your life all the time. Corporate has this dynamic where things need to get out by 2-4 am so that the client can look over things at 8 am in the morning. That can happen in litigation if you're working for someone that's bad at delegating in a timely manner, but is relatively rare. There's a lot less back-and-forth in litigation, so less opportunity for "oh, I need that by morning." Plus, as a junior, you'll do a lot of doc review, and that's very flexible in terms of how you schedule.

Now, you will work until midnight in litigation sometimes. If you are at work until midnight in litigation, you're up against crunch time on a filing deadline, preparing for trial, or have a deadline for an internal investigation coming up, and in that case, you'll be at the office until midnight for weeks. But you'll also rack up a 300 hour month, which lets you dodge work later when things get less crazy. In corporate, you can work until midnight for weeks and not have even 200 hours to show for it.

[splitsplat]

I don't get it. Did you guys screw up in law school and are struggling to find work?

Everybody LOL-ing about firms ITT is working big law.

rayiner! <3

[IAFG]

I thought the hours would be the problem. I see people are focusing on that here too.

The problem isn't the hours. It's not. It's not at all. Let go of thinking that's the bad part. Stop trying to rationalize by saying you're fine with the hours. The problem is the work and the people.

[rayiner]

I thought the hours would be the problem. I see people are focusing on that here too.

The problem isn't the hours. It's not. It's not at all. Let go of thinking that's the bad part. Stop trying to rationalize by saying you're fine with the hours. The problem is the work and the people.

This is true. At a big firm, 50% of the work is doc review. The good stuff is summarizing expert depositions or preparing interview outlines, or similar work.

[84651846190]

I agree that biglaw attorneys are insufferable. I'd rather eat lunch alone at my desk or with non-attorneys than sit and listen to the humble brag/intellectual masturbation that dominates most casual conversations I have with my biglaw coworkers. I get excited when we have our testifying experts come over for all-day preparation before trial because I have some non-lawyers to eat lunch with.

[dead head]

So if the biglaw experience is terrible and the money isn't worth it, and everyone through to 3Ls saying they would like to do it for a few years are idiots, why are you guys still in it? Isn't staying in something you hate more idiotic than thinking it's not a bad idea to do it for a few years and then move on?

[84651846190]

So if the biglaw experience is terrible and the money isn't worth it, and everyone through to 3Ls saying they would like to do it for a few years are idiots, why are you guys still in it? Isn't staying in something you hate more idiotic than thinking it's not a bad idea to do it for a few years and then move on?

I'm trying to get out as quickly and optimally as possible. It's not like there's a large collection of non-legal employers excited to hire someone who went to law school, so it's probable that I'll have to stay in law. But a few years of biglaw don't really prepare you for any kind of real legal work. Like rayiner said, it's a lot of summarizing stuff that partners/senior associates do and doc review.

[Anonymous User]

I thought the hours would be the problem. I see people are focusing on that here too.

The problem isn't the hours. It's not. It's not at all. Let go of thinking that's the bad part. Stop trying to rationalize by saying you're fine with the hours. The problem is the work and the people.

This is true. At a big firm, 50% of the work is doc review. The good stuff is summarizing expert depositions or preparing interview outlines, or similar work.

I work for what passes for biglaw in a smaller city (pays a market rate but that rate is substantially below $160k, less than 100 attorneys in the firm) and I have to say this thread makes me rethink some of the "midlaw is a flame" conventional wisdom.

Hours wise I agree it seems similar to biglaw, as my average day is about 7:30 to 6:00. But work wise it's totally different. I work on all types of litigation and get a lot of substantive work and almost no doc review, and that's pretty typical here even for first and second years. You sacrifice plenty prestige wise but I can honestly say I'm happy enough here that I'm not giving much thought to exit options.