No Offer Guide and Support thread (no advice for SAs, 1Ls) Forum

[Stinson]

Great thread, great advice. Just stopped in to say that if you are fortunate enough to get an offer, don't be that asshole who constantly posts on every social media outlet about your offer or your constant firm-world problems. There are enough assholes in law/school.

Not a ton of people get biglaw SAs at my school but sure enough, the ones that did rushed to make it their FB employment. I'm happy for them but it's poor taste IMO, especially when they know damn well they're in the minority here.

I'm a 3L and I'm sick of seeing shit like

"Wine at my desk on a Wednesday! #biglawlife"

"Nats game with the firm!"

"So glad [bar] has my favorite beer at the Schyster & Schyster happy hour!"

etc.

Checking in just to say that these people should die in a blazing inferno.

A 2L/rising 3L from my school is summering with Cravath and I swear he has posted a picture of every fancy lunch/dinner with the firm. And this being Cravath, we're talking fancy.

[romothesavior]

To my knowledge no SA has been “offered or not-offered” in nearly a year. I doubt if this thread is supposed to be about those who were no-offered over a year ago…. I believe those in that situation hang out in the Tears of whatever topic (please feel free to visit them). So unless this is your attempt to highjack this thread and turn it into Tears Part II, let’s discuss SAs, Offers, No-Offers….as it pertains to what is happening (or about to happen) in 2013.

Well you're wrong, and you should stop before you earn yourself a timeout.

Asking questions of people and their experiences is fine, but please keep the purpose of this thread in mind when doing so. I am going to be liberally banning people who start these little pissing contests.

[BarbellDreams]

This thread is to help people who have been no offered

To my knowledge no SA has been “offered or not-offered” in nearly a year. I doubt if this thread is supposed to be about those who were no-offered over a year ago…. I believe those in that situation hang out in the Tears of whatever topic (please feel free to visit them). So unless this is your attempt to highjack this thread and turn it into Tears Part II, let’s discuss SAs, Offers, No-Offers….as it pertains to what is happening (or about to happen) in 2013.

Little kids start crying when you walk by don't they? Seriously, there is a level of douche, TLS-style douche, and you. Congrats.

Also, your "knowledge" should go read some legal news once in a while and actually keep up with countless firms no-offering people instead of making baseless statements in wrong threads and then somehow trying to single handedly hi-jack them in the direction you prefer them to go. I had to actually re-read the quoted post twice because it was difficult for me to believe that your level of moron existed IRL.

[Myself]

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[Anonymous User]

I was no-offered my 2L summer and ended up landing on my feet. Here's my story; I hope it might provide some kind of solace/inspiration/whatever for those of you who are about to get slapped with a no-offer.

The first thing to keep in mind is that they don't want to no-offer you. Unless there was some kind of crazy incident that made no-offering you a no-brainer, it's going to feel like shit for them too. What that means is that they might drag it out like crazy. My summer associateship finished in early August, and it wasn't until mid-October that I finally got word that I wasn't going to be getting an offer. Which means that while I was sitting around hoping for an offer, I missed 3L OCI. Granted 3L OCI sucks, but it's better than nothing and people do get jobs that way, so if you're still in offer limbo, YOU NEED TO BE PARTICIPATING IN 3L OCI. Do not limit your options just because you're sitting around waiting for good news.

My performance reviews were all good, I was (to the best of my knowledge) well-liked at the firm, and by the end of the summer I even had a crew of associates and a cople of the younger partners that I was getting dinner and drinks with a couple nights a week. I fit in well, and I was told my multiple people at the firm that I was all but assured an offer. At the end of the summer, they had a few rainmaker partners in my office split for another firm, and things basically went to hell economically. I was told there wouldn't be a position for me, but that they'd serve as a reference for me and it wasn't because of my work or personality. One thing to note though: For all I know, it was because of my work and/or personality. When someone's no-offering you, only listen to the takeaway (which is "You will not be getting a job with this law firm, period.") and not the verbiage. It's like when a girl is dumping you. She might say it's because you're "too nice," but what she really means is she wants to fuck someone more attractive than you.

Now for the happy part about how I landed on my feet:

I did something that I’d recommend every single one of you post-2Ls do *right this second* if you haven’t already: I applied for clerkships. I applied for clerkships because (1.) They’re a good opportunity, and (2.) Hey, what if I get no-offered and need a gig?

Turns out, I did get no-offered and need a gig, but by the end of my 2L summer I had a clerkship lined up. I cannot stress enough what an amazing parachute that was. Sure, not having a long-term firm job lined up sucks, but while I was clerking I learned a shitload, improved my legal writing skills like crazy, and reapplied for firms.

I ended up getting interviews at three firms, offers from two, and going to a mid-sized firm that pays market in the district where I clerked.

Being no-offered really, really, really feels like shit, but it is not game over. If you are a summer associate right now who sees the no-offer writing on the wall (or even thinks there’s a non-zero chance you might be no-offered) begin applying to clerkships immediately. Like, today. Not just USDC and COA either, although obviously those are preferable. Apply to bankruptcy, magistrate, and state court clerkships too. Any clerkship is better than nothing at all, and it will give you a second bite at the law firm apple.

[rad lulz]

Ty for sharin dood

Glad it all worked out for you in the end

[UnamSanctam]

I'm going to end up sounding like an idiot here but whatever. I don't know if I'll get an SA offer and, if I do, an offer after that. But assuming that I end up lucky and some of my close friends don't, what should I do? Obviously there's aspie shit like not talking about the firm and pay, but that's common sense. Would you bros have hated it if one of your close friends tried to hit the pavement for you trying to find something else? I think like I'd feel awful if someone did that for me but I'm weird about people doing shit for me. Or is it better just to be supportive and hit the bar and listen and do nothing else?

Like I said, I know I sound kind of stupid here, but just reading these stories makes me want to do whatever I can for support. And I'm not even close with you guys.

[Anonymous User]

See my forum post "bottom of the class now I'm here" for guidance and hope. Recent post. Top chartin'

[Ludo!]

See my forum post "bottom of the class now I'm here" for guidance and hope. Recent post. Top chartin'

Congrats. It doesmt really have anything to do with this thread though

[rad lulz]

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[UnamSanctam]

Thanks for taking the time to respond, Rad. Sounds fucking terrible man.

[rad lulz]

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[Anonymous User]

However, keep in mind that the hiring partner is not your friend, that he is looking out for you, and that he has his own interests to take care of. Do NOT blindly adopt what they say as truth. For your own mental health and to get in the mindset to talk to employers. Think critically and if you can, call someone else at the firm you can TRUST to talk about it, too. There may be another supplemental or ancillary reason they are keeping from you. This means you may never get a straight answer. Yeah that sucks, but you gotta ask.

I really want to re-emphasize this point for the people in the coming weeks. When you ask the hiring partner "why" they're invariably going to find some reason that reflects poorly on you rather than the firm. Think critically about what he/she says, but don't agonize over it and don't hate yourself over it. There's a strong chance that the firm's just trying to cover and hide its dirty laundry.

When I called the firm after being unceremoniously rejected via boilerplate snailmail letter, the partner couldn't give me any discrete reasons why it happened. They simply felt I didn't have as much "potential" as the others. 2 out of the 6 were no-offered. They told us throughout the summer that there were spots available for everyone. No one had any major complaints about my work product. I got along well with everyone (or so I thought). Even during the exit interview, it was suggested that I'd be back in the fall if I chose them over my other SA.

Fast forward 6 months to a year. Shit's hitting the fan: layoffs left and right; major clients are leaving; major partners are moving. I think back last summer, they simply over hired. But instead of being upfront about all this, they'd rather you feel like shit and take the blame for your own downfall. Hate to admit this, but seeing them fall apart really brings me a satisfying sense of closure.

[Ludo!]

Interviewed today for a job that pays $10/hr. Best part was that they didn't ask if I got an offer from my summer firm

[rad lulz]

Interviewed today for a job that pays $10/hr. Best part was that they didn't ask if I got an offer from my summer firm

Always a silver lining bro

Good luck

[Anonymous User]

Some people ask me sometimes why the event is so traumatic, or why not getting an offer is so hurtful. It's just a job, right?

No, not really.

Being an SA is not like a job. Yeah, you do some work, but you get treated like a king. Your interviewers probably pushed a lot of talk about "collegiality. People take you out for drinks and lunches every day for weeks. At nice restaurants. Everything is paid for. You may work hard, but work you do is usually not important, is often "make work," and is in some respects secondary to the social aspects. People want to be friends with you, and there are a ton of social events where you get to know some of these people, and even their families, very very well. I hung out with some of these people outside of work, and associates would encourage me to leave work to do it. People act like the job is already yours, saying stuff like "we can't wait until you join the firm," or "when you join the firm...." People always give you advice about where to live and what to get involved in when you join the firm. The day I left, people said to me things like "let me know when you're back in town so we can play golf/get a beer," "don't make any decisions before you call me," and "I really hope I get to work with you."

When you get the call, no one is calling you to grab that beer. Everything you did that summer goes back through your head. Was it all fake? Did they really want to get to know me? Did they really mean it when they said that they appreciated the work I did for them? It's surreal. You've been totally integrated into a group, made plans based on a future with these people, and with one call, you get cut out completely.

And then you realize you are on the 3L job market

Saying it fucking sucks doesn't really do it justice.

Man, so much this. Even if things end up working out for me, it's going to sting for a while that I was rejected by people whom I really thought I had made a connection with.

[Broseidon]

A buddy told me he got the offer today at what is basically my dream job. Couldn't be happier for him.

I think I'm making progress

[rad lulz]

Some people ask me sometimes why the event is so traumatic, or why not getting an offer is so hurtful. It's just a job, right?

No, not really.

Being an SA is not like a job. Yeah, you do some work, but you get treated like a king. Your interviewers probably pushed a lot of talk about "collegiality. People take you out for drinks and lunches every day for weeks. At nice restaurants. Everything is paid for. You may work hard, but work you do is usually not important, is often "make work," and is in some respects secondary to the social aspects. People want to be friends with you, and there are a ton of social events where you get to know some of these people, and even their families, very very well. I hung out with some of these people outside of work, and associates would encourage me to leave work to do it. People act like the job is already yours, saying stuff like "we can't wait until you join the firm," or "when you join the firm...." People always give you advice about where to live and what to get involved in when you join the firm. The day I left, people said to me things like "let me know when you're back in town so we can play golf/get a beer," "don't make any decisions before you call me," and "I really hope I get to work with you."

When you get the call, no one is calling you to grab that beer. Everything you did that summer goes back through your head. Was it all fake? Did they really want to get to know me? Did they really mean it when they said that they appreciated the work I did for them? It's surreal. You've been totally integrated into a group, made plans based on a future with these people, and with one call, you get cut out completely.

And then you realize you are on the 3L job market

Saying it fucking sucks doesn't really do it justice.

Man, so much this. Even if things end up working out for me, it's going to sting for a while that I was rejected by people whom I really thought I had made a connection with.

I've gotten over the sting, but I haven't really forgiven

[rad lulz]

A buddy told me he got the offer today at what is basically my dream job. Couldn't be happier for him.

I think I'm making progress

Baby steps bro

[Stanford4Me]

x

[rad lulz]

Good luck on the bar and good luck in your interview my dude

I've know you now for like 3 years and I really hope now is your time

[Ludo!]

Thanks for sharing that Stanny. Sucks how someone so obviously smart and talented can get fucked over for a couple mistakes that anyone could have made. Best of luck with your upcoming interview

[Anonymous User]

While this experience may not have made my career stronger (although, honestly, I think working at the firm I have an interview with will be better for my career long term), it definitely put things into perspective. Being surrounded by "elite" students at a T10, who always talking about the $160k starting salary brought me to a point where I allowed money and material things define who I was, contrary to what my life philosophy was prior to that. I became obsessed with status and "prestige," and getting knocked down a few notches via the no-offer humbled me and made me remember that there are definitely more important things in life. Maybe that sounds wishy-washy to some, but it has definitely centered me and helped me relax as I look to my future.

Thanks for sharing. This part has been my strategy so far, too. I never cared about money and preftige and all that before law school, and I think some of my values got out of whack. I don't want to let my career define me, because I've always been a "work to live" kind of person.

[NYstate]

@Stanford4me

Thanks for your post. Good luck. I think this professions focus on status and defining tourself by your career is a huge part of the problem and part of the reason people get so down on themselves. A biglaw career should really be thought of as acting. People expect to struggle and aren't ashamed if they don't make it.


But I want to suggest something from an insiders look at biglaw. You were a "marked man" from the minute your connections left the firm. Don't assume it was solely your work product at work here. I'm not saying your work was perfect. I'm saying that the way people viewed you was "tainted" by your association with people who left the firm. The first assignment just seems off- why did no one talk to you before giving this project to someone else. The second assignment sounds like you didn't get proper direction and support you needed to do the work.
Yes, perhaps your work could and should have been better. Missing a deadline is a huge error and I don't know why that happened But don't forget you had an x on your back. Maybe not all the blame is on you.

I tried to get this point across earlier. There are many dynamics at work in a firm environment. Many of them you may not be aware of. Firms do seemingly random things for random reasons. Maybe people like to believe that getting an offer is solely in their control so that if they don't get one, they made big errors.

But see the post above where a person got no offered for making one offhand comment and offending the wrong person. Things tend to be far more random and petty at the end of the day than SAs want to admit. Of course the people that get offers assume it is because they are so good they deserve it and it is all in their control. But it just isn't. There is the action of luck and working with the right people, etc.

Maybe you have to work a couple of years to understand this.

[TheFactor]

@Stanford4me

Thanks for your post. Good luck. I think this professions focus on status and defining tourself by your career is a huge part of the problem and part of the reason people get so down on themselves. A biglaw career should really be thought of as acting. People expect to struggle and aren't ashamed if they don't make it.


But I want to suggest something from an insiders look at biglaw. You were a "marked man" from the minute your connections left the firm. Don't assume it was solely your work product at work here. I'm not saying your work was perfect. I'm saying that the way people viewed you was "tainted" by your association with people who left the firm. The first assignment just seems off- why did no one talk to you before giving this project to someone else. The second assignment sounds like you didn't get proper direction and support you needed to do the work.
Yes, perhaps your work could and should have been better. Missing a deadline is a huge error and I don't know why that happened But don't forget you had an x on your back. Maybe not all the blame is on you.

I tried to get this point across earlier. There are many dynamics at work in a firm environment. Many of them you may not be aware of. Firms do seemingly random things for random reasons. Maybe people like to believe that getting an offer is solely in their control so that if they don't get one, they made big errors.

But see the post above where a person got no offered for making one offhand comment and offending the wrong person. Things tend to be far more random and petty at the end of the day than SAs want to admit. Of course the people that get offers assume it is because they are so good they deserve it and it is all in their control. But it just isn't. There is the action of luck and working with the right people, etc.

Maybe you have to work a couple of years to understand this.

Do you have any idea how vapid, douchey, and unhelpful that was?