2011 Top 50 Go-To Law Schools Forum

[Aberzombie1892]

Don't try to make huge trends out of one years data. Everyone was saying Cornell was TTT last year and it's number two.

Yeah I know. Sometimes it's hard to keep in mind that this is all historical.

One thing to consider is that NYC had pretty solid offer rates in for 2009 Summer Associates. Southern firms had atrocious no offer rates.

The exact opposite happened the year before. It's why NYC placing schools went UP in placement, and Southern placing firms dropped. The same thing happened in the midwest, but not as terrible. NYC firms took their lumps a year earlier. DC firms didn't really no offer as much.

The only thing I can't explain is NYU. Places mostly in NYC.

YS
H
CCN
MVPDNC
G

So true. Look at ATL. Place is a shit hole. FL is a shit hole. People in Nash firms got no offered like crazy. Other Southern markets are small as shit.

I did look at the full Vandy employment data. I did see a bunch of midsize firms, especially in Nash and other Southern markets. Article III was still 10%.

Southern firms have really low offer rates period - even before the crash. Thus, if anyone is reading this in choosing between a NYC big firm and a non-texas southern big firm, go with the former always. With NYC (and other non-southern firms), the competition ends when you receive an offer to be a summer associate - the offer for post-graduate employment is generally yours to lose. With southern firms, the competition does not end with the summer associate offer but when you have the actual fully time employment offer in your hand - and these are only given to around 25% of the summer associates.

[mez06]

LOL @ Howard placing better than a good share of the tier 1. Poetic Justice

[YourCaptain]

Dear LULSTL,

ND: 20% NLJ SECURE
WUSTL: T19 (LOL) SECURE

[keg411]

DF is right about NYC being a big factor. Cornell has the double advantage of NYC and a very small class size. Chicago's small classes also helped them out as well as being the top midwest school.

[xyzbca]

Outside of the T-14, which schools are placing significantly better or worse than their USNWR ranking would suggest? A poster above pointed out an obvious one in Howard (on the plus side).

[thesealocust]

For the record, Texas rates are so low in part because it's common to split the summer in Texas, and they also hire a lot of 1L SAs - both of which make no-offers more common than in other markets.

LA is looking pretty good. High offer rate, decent number of firms, lower COL than NYC and DC but a nice place (or so I've heard). Why is LA so infrequently mentioned on TLS? Whenever people talk California they're just mentioning San Francisco. Is LA as "insular" as San Francisco?

(1) LA is a small legal market compared to NYC / DC / Chicago, though still objectively large. Ties are also pretty important.

(2) For most people geography isn't a black box. It either serves as a proxy for type of work (DC = gov't based, NYC = finance, Texas = oil/gas, SV = IP / venture, etc.) or has important meanings to a person with respect to geographic preference and family/friends. Most people thus pick where they look for work based on work they want to do + where they want to be, not offer rate / number of firms / CoL.

[dakatz]

Outside of the T-14, which schools are placing significantly better or worse than their USNWR ranking would suggest? A poster above pointed out an obvious one in Howard (on the plus side).

BU/BC/Fordham outperform their rankings. WUSTL is the most glaring example of a school greatly underperforming.

[Rand M.]

Wow I've always been one to say that things weren't as bad as people were saying, and I was never one to listen to that autoadmit bs, but when it's from an official source like this I have to change my tune. This is unreal. I think helmholtz and a few others in this thread have been on here for a while, but for those of us who were on TLS before 2008 this is just a complete turn around. People on here used to say "go to GULC sticker; you'll get biglaw no problem". The vault guides said things like "getting big law from CLS is like shooting fish in a barrel" and "UVA's placement is phenomenal. Unless you want Wachtell and only Wachtell you'll be fine". NLJ numbers for the top 10 were in the high 50's. Now you have the number 6 school on the list placing less than half in the nlj250 (and the thing that's so scary is that nlj250 is much more comprehensive than vault rankings. If this was Vault I'd actually say things were really good. Vaults heavily NYC focused--but for these numbers to be nlj). Ugh why did things have to crash when I decided to go to law school.............

I kind of wish I had taken the wish and ED'd to UChicago.......

Lol its a sad dose of irony that I managed 2 T14 acceptances, and they end up the top 2 schools on this list. I guess someone is trying to tell me I made a bad decision turning them down.

OK I hate to sound like a crybaby but in all seriousness, no TLS hyperbole just real talk. What is going to happen to the people in the top 14 who miss biglaw/fed clerkship/pi? Are people with TOP 10 law degrees really going to be living at home with their parents working at RadioShack???? What have you guys heard from the people who struck out at OCI and don't have anything lined up (3Ls) what are they doing?! And the thing is that the worse class is class of 2011!!!!

Oh and people need to stop pissing on UChicago. They have NEVER had less than 51/2 percent biglaw placement AND they have high placement into top Vault firms, AND they have had lawyer/judge assessment scores higher than ANY school except HYS and CLS EVERY YEAR. AND they've placed more SCOTUS clerks than Stanford over the last decade. I don't give a damn what TLS says, Chicago is only barely behind Stanford. I used to love that school but I chickened out on ED because of their weak LRAP and I was afraid of ice cold Chicago....now I kind of regret it.

Weren't you also mad that Chicago grades LRW? Didn't you rank it as nearly the worst option in the T14 b/c of that?

[Blindmelon]

Weren't you also mad that Chicago grades LRW? Didn't you rank it as nearly the worst option in the T14 b/c of that?

If you even remotely choose a school based on whether LRW is graded, you're doing it wrong.

[Sandro]

GSU rarely gets brought up on TLS for Atlanta/GA, yet it outplaced UGA at 13% vs 11% for UGA. Emory wasnt too far ahead either.

[BruceWayne]

For the record, Texas rates are so low in part because it's common to split the summer in Texas, and they also hire a lot of 1L SAs - both of which make no-offers more common than in other markets.

LA is looking pretty good. High offer rate, decent number of firms, lower COL than NYC and DC but a nice place (or so I've heard). Why is LA so infrequently mentioned on TLS? Whenever people talk California they're just mentioning San Francisco. Is LA as "insular" as San Francisco?

(1) LA is a small legal market compared to NYC / DC / Chicago, though still objectively large. Ties are also pretty important.

(2) For most people geography isn't a black box. It either serves as a proxy for type of work (DC = gov't based, NYC = finance, Texas = oil/gas, SV = IP / venture, etc.) or has important meanings to a person with respect to geographic preference and family/friends. Most people thus pick where they look for work based on work they want to do + where they want to be, not offer rate / number of firms / CoL.

No I get that. But that shouldn't affect the number of people on here who want to work there. What, is no one on TLS from LA? It's the second most populated metro area in the country.

Wow I've always been one to say that things weren't as bad as people were saying, and I was never one to listen to that autoadmit bs, but when it's from an official source like this I have to change my tune. This is unreal. I think helmholtz and a few others in this thread have been on here for a while, but for those of us who were on TLS before 2008 this is just a complete turn around. People on here used to say "go to GULC sticker; you'll get biglaw no problem". The vault guides said things like "getting big law from CLS is like shooting fish in a barrel" and "UVA's placement is phenomenal. Unless you want Wachtell and only Wachtell you'll be fine". NLJ numbers for the top 10 were in the high 50's. Now you have the number 6 school on the list placing less than half in the nlj250 (and the thing that's so scary is that nlj250 is much more comprehensive than vault rankings. If this was Vault I'd actually say things were really good. Vaults heavily NYC focused--but for these numbers to be nlj). Ugh why did things have to crash when I decided to go to law school.............

I kind of wish I had taken the wish and ED'd to UChicago.......

Lol its a sad dose of irony that I managed 2 T14 acceptances, and they end up the top 2 schools on this list. I guess someone is trying to tell me I made a bad decision turning them down.

OK I hate to sound like a crybaby but in all seriousness, no TLS hyperbole just real talk. What is going to happen to the people in the top 14 who miss biglaw/fed clerkship/pi? Are people with TOP 10 law degrees really going to be living at home with their parents working at RadioShack???? What have you guys heard from the people who struck out at OCI and don't have anything lined up (3Ls) what are they doing?! And the thing is that the worse class is class of 2011!!!!

Oh and people need to stop pissing on UChicago. They have NEVER had less than 51/2 percent biglaw placement AND they have high placement into top Vault firms, AND they have had lawyer/judge assessment scores higher than ANY school except HYS and CLS EVERY YEAR. AND they've placed more SCOTUS clerks than Stanford over the last decade. I don't give a damn what TLS says, Chicago is only barely behind Stanford. I used to love that school but I chickened out on ED because of their weak LRAP and I was afraid of ice cold Chicago....now I kind of regret it.

Weren't you also mad that Chicago grades LRW? Didn't you rank it as nearly the worst option in the T14 b/c of that?

Hell yeah. I think grading LRW encourages the (already) overly competitive nature of law school and it just gives employers another reason to make unimportant distinctions. But that's a personal subjective qualm. You'll never hear me say ANYTHING bad about UChicago's placement. When it comes to the facts your school has always dominated. It's one of the reasons why I used to be so interested in going there. For all the "CCN" and "top 6" garbage that TLS pushes (which has NEVER been supported with objective placement data, only overall UNSWR rank). Chicago and Columbia are clearly on another level from any school except HYS.

That nearly worst thing is hyperbole. I just said that out of the so called "CCN" Chicago would personally make me uncomfortable because of the graded LRW. But honestly I'm going to give the school it's due, even with graded LRW it's been beating down on NYU in placement in every facet for years--contrary to all the TLS top 6 lore. At one point you all were even out placing NYU into NYC firms--that may still be true.

If you're choosing between 2 otherwise equivalent schools, it makes total sense to pick the one with the P/F LRW. Law school is enough stress and bs as it is. You might as well cut yourself some slack.

Weren't you also mad that Chicago grades LRW? Didn't you rank it as nearly the worst option in the T14 b/c of that?

If you even remotely choose a school based on whether LRW is graded, you're doing it wrong.

Hell no you're not. If you are choosing between 2 otherwise equivalent schools (say CLS and UChi) and you don't have any preference, it makes total sense to go with the P/F LRW school. LS is enough stress, competition, and BS as it is. You might as well cut yourself a little bit of slack.

[Blindmelon]

Hell no you're not. If you are choosing between 2 otherwise equivalent schools (say CLS and UChi) and you don't have any preference, it makes total sense to go with the P/F LRW school. LS is enough stress, competition, and BS as it is. You might as well cut yourself a little bit of slack.

I don't know where you go to LS, but LW is shit easy. At BU its curved to an A-, and while it takes a lot of time, its an eh grade boost and gives you the ability to write "Legal Writing: A" on your resume.

[columbia86]

What placement rates are being prognosticated for 2014?

We knew that this year's placement rates, along with next year's, were going to be ridiculously low. Therefore while the Top 50 Go-To Law Schools provide us with a relative ranking of schools, I'm not sure how helpful the actual placement statistics are.
(Given that the worst of the economic recession has passed and reportedly job prospects are SLOWLY improving)

[BCLS]

Hell no you're not. If you are choosing between 2 otherwise equivalent schools (say CLS and UChi) and you don't have any preference, it makes total sense to go with the P/F LRW school. LS is enough stress, competition, and BS as it is. You might as well cut yourself a little bit of slack.

I don't know where you go to LS, but LW is shit easy. At BU its curved to an A-, and while it takes a lot of time, its an eh grade boost and gives you the ability to write "Legal Writing: A" on your resume.

Damn BC is curved to a B/B+. I'm jealous.

[applepiecrust]

I know this has all been said before, but I am VERY surprised by Cornell's placement!

Also, very glad this lays to rest the Vandy>GULC claims that float around on TLS.

[xyzbca]

NLJ250 vs. USNWR rankings. I only included schools that are more than +/- 5 spots from their 2010 USNWR rankings. I excluded YS. NLJ ranking on the left. Difference from USNWR ranking in parenthesis. I stopped at #39.

2. Cornell (+11)
17. BC (+11)
21. Fordham (+13)
25. WUSTL (-6)
27. SMU (+21)
30. WF (+8)
31. Howard (NR)
32. Georgia State (+28)
33. Seton Hall (+39)
34. Cardozo (+18)
35. Hastings (+7)
36. Wisconsin (-8)
37. Iowa (-11)
38. Maryland (+10)
39. Minnesota (-17)

[quakeroats]

Don't try to make huge trends out of one years data. Everyone was saying Cornell was TTT last year and it's number two.

Yeah I know. Sometimes it's hard to keep in mind that this is all historical.

One thing to consider is that NYC had pretty solid offer rates in for 2009 Summer Associates. Southern firms had atrocious no offer rates.

The exact opposite happened the year before. It's why NYC placing schools went UP in placement, and Southern placing firms dropped. The same thing happened in the midwest, but not as terrible. NYC firms took their lumps a year earlier. DC firms didn't really no offer as much.

The only thing I can't explain is NYU. Places mostly in NYC.

YS
H
CCN
MVPDNC
G

So true. Look at ATL. Place is a shit hole. FL is a shit hole. People in Nash firms got no offered like crazy. Other Southern markets are small as shit.

I did look at the full Vandy employment data. I did see a bunch of midsize firms, especially in Nash and other Southern markets. Article III was still 10%.

Southern firms have really low offer rates period - even before the crash. Thus, if anyone is reading this in choosing between a NYC big firm and a non-texas southern big firm, go with the former always. With NYC (and other non-southern firms), the competition ends when you receive an offer to be a summer associate - the offer for post-graduate employment is generally yours to lose. With southern firms, the competition does not end with the summer associate offer but when you have the actual fully time employment offer in your hand - and these are only given to around 25% of the summer associates.

The rate is higher than that, but it was still awful in 2010. Duke sent about 50 students to southern markets in 2010, and I suspect that explains most of the variation from the prior year.

[showNprove]

1. Chicago - 58.97% (+5.87%)
2. Cornell - 58.33% (+16.83%)
3. Columbia - 55.20% (+0.80%)
4. Penn - 53.31% (+2.51%)
5. Harvard - 49.74% (+2.14%)
6. Virginia - 46.79% (-6.01%)
7. Berkeley - 45.61% (-4.39%)
8. Northwestern -44.37% (-11.17%)
9. NYU - 43.27% (-6.83%)
10. Michigan - 42.47 (-8.53%)
11. Stanford - 41.62% (-12.48%)
12. Duke - 38.03% (-11.77%)
13. Georgetown - 37.58% (-5.22%)
14. UCLA - 35.14% (+0.76%)
15. Yale - 33.84% (-1.46%)
16. BC - 33.58% (-1.02%)
17. BU - 30.00% (-4.60%)
18. Vandy - 29.81% (-17.29%)
19. USC - 28.72% (-12.58%)
20. Texas - 26.65% (-9.95%)



Observations:

1. This is the Class of 2010, which means they did OCI in 2008. This is the class that was no-offered after having summer employment.
2. Vanderbilt, Stanford, Duke, USC, Northwestern, and Texas got demolished.
3. Cornell did great, probably because (a) New York is the fastest recovering market, and (b) it's small class size.
4. Even though NYU has a much larger class size than Cornell, it's hard to fathom how Cornell does 17% better and NYU 7% worse than last year.

[paulinaporizkova]

Damn, does this mean I should reconsider Cornell instead of throwing it out the window for UVA?

[fatduck]

Damn, does this mean I should reconsider Cornell instead of throwing it out the window for UVA?

why would you ever go to uva? HYSCCCN or bust.

[paulinaporizkova]

Damn, does this mean I should reconsider Cornell instead of throwing it out the window for UVA?

why would you ever go to uva? HYSCCCN or bust.

haha, thanks for the pearls of wisdom babe.

[fatduck]

Damn, does this mean I should reconsider Cornell instead of throwing it out the window for UVA?

why would you ever go to uva? HYSCCCN or bust.

haha, thanks for the pearls of wisdom babe.

i guess i probably should have left NYU off there. HYSC^3. it has a nice ring to it.

[beachbum]

Between the last two years of data, I think the only 0Ls who should be reconsidering where they attend (amongst the top schools) are those who are headed to NYU at sticker (or near-sticker). I just don't get it. NYU has the benefit of a (relatively) strong market in NYC, and it doesn't have a small class size to help explain its underwhelming performance.

When you combine this with the sky-high COL, I think it would definitely be worthwhile to review or reconsider a decision to attend NYU at full cost. The return on investment just isn't there relative to peer (?) schools, particularly when many NYU-caliber applicants receive scholarships at MVPDNC.

[paulinaporizkova]

Damn, does this mean I should reconsider Cornell instead of throwing it out the window for UVA?

why would you ever go to uva? HYSCCCN or bust.

haha, thanks for the pearls of wisdom babe.

i guess i probably should have left NYU off there. HYSC^3. it has a nice ring to it.

sounds like a robot

[fatduck]

Between the last two years of data, I think the only 0Ls who should be reconsidering where they attend (amongst the top schools) are those who are headed to NYU at sticker (or near-sticker). I just don't get it. NYU has the benefit of a (relatively) strong market in NYC, and it doesn't have a small class size to help explain its underwhelming performance.

When you combine this with the sky-high COL, I think it would definitely be worthwhile to review or reconsider a decision to attend NYU at full cost. The return on investment just isn't there relative to peer (?) schools, particularly when many NYU-caliber applicants receive scholarships at MVPDNC.

don't forget wustl. no one should ever attend wustl even if they pay you. bu or bust amirite?