2L losing complete hope Forum

[Anonymous User]

When you are in interviews on campus, representative attorneys from firms are sent to see if you could belong to "their club." Every partner is expected to be a business getter--not just retainer-- these days. If you are brilliant but shy, government work or academia may be more appropriate for you.

On campus interviewers are often resume collects. Anyone going into big law is not going to greet clients or be developing a practice. Those are not the characteristics that are being screened for by big firms. This year, big firms are hiring top 1/3 (URM or top 1/2 with w.e.) at T14s that are "brilliant and shy." Partnership characteristics are screened through the promotion track.

OP, chill out. It is way to early to be worried. Most govt/crim places start interviews later this month. You can still get DOJ through the volunteer program, and the only thing you've missed out in the crim field is Manhattan/Philly/DC/SF. In any event C/N will hook you up with something equal anyway.

It sucks though, 1/2 of the T14 is not getting a big law job, and median students with work experience, social skills and demonstrated interests are being shut out of NY/Philly/DC/West Coast DA/PD/Govt programs and having to strive through rejections to find a quality volunteer job that is in their interest area.

You need to understand that if you want to get A job it might not be your first choice. You need to be more flexible and target secondary markets and me more flexible with your plans.

Most secondary markets are worse than NYC. At CLS, one of the easiest ways to strike out was to bid on a secondary market with median grades. NYC is a hiring bonanza compared to places like Boston/Philly/LA/SF/Chicago/DC.

[LongRifle]

That is part of the problem. I have applied to almost every govt agency out there, including different DOJ areas. It is becoming harder to get those jobs and most of them don't give offers, so have to go through this hell all over again for an ever more limited number of spots. Another issue is that I have worked in crim pros before, and have little desire to continue doing it. I have yet to explore transactional work, which have developed some interest in but is near impossible to find. If I had my way, I would have loved a job w/ the CIA, but was rejected of course. And even if snag a govt job, still have the problem of the debt w/ only an unreliable LRAP program to support you. In honesty, I didn't go to CLS/NYU to become a DA or PD, if wanted to do that it would have been better to go a school w/ stronger connections to those and/or cheaper tuition. That has become one of the irritating things get treated w/ when fail oci, people try to tell you should be happy being relegated to some govt/PI job you have no interest in and whole lectures about how big law isn't everything it seems, when they instantly turn around bragging about their holiday care packages they just got. Feel like I have a more realistic picture of what big law is and the current legal market than my classmates.

A lot of that doesn't follow.

Government offers are stable. What transactional practice do you mean/classes have you taken? CLS/NYU will get at least an interview at most mid-law firms that have strong transactional practices. Plus, in-house = transactional and the hiring season is right now.

[Aqualibrium]

Most secondary markets are worse than NYC. At CLS, one of the easiest ways to strike out was to bid on a secondary market with median grades. NYC is a hiring bonanza compared to places like Boston/Philly/LA/SF/Chicago/DC.

That's why you don't rely solely on OCI, and you don't waist your bids on firms in those markets. It's too late for you now, but for the future students that might read this, start mailing targeted apps to firms (especially ones in secondary markets) in July. Be smart and be conservative with your OCI bids.

[Anonymous User]

Meant that most govt don't offer after summer, have to get in through honors programs which are very difficult. Realize there are other transactional opportunities, and have been applying to in house and firms that can find. But my success rate has been quite low, not even getting foot in the door w/ a good number of places. Concern is that a lot of govt does pigeon hole you in very narrow litigation field, which is something may not want to do as a career or would like to develop transaction skills.

In terms of secondary markets, I'm from CA and went to school in CA, so have little connection to "secondary markets." Tried some offices in CA and TX and DC, no game. CA was prolly the worse, esp w/ the infamous Orrick telephone rejection.

[prezidentv8]

This thread is full of fails, including spelling and grammar errors.

[uvahooo]

Most secondary markets are worse than NYC. At CLS, one of the easiest ways to strike out was to bid on a secondary market with median grades. NYC is a hiring bonanza compared to places like Boston/Philly/LA/SF/Chicago/DC.

That's why you don't rely solely on OCI, and you don't waist your bids on firms in those markets. It's too late for you now, but for the future students that might read this, start mailing targeted apps to firms (especially ones in secondary markets) in July. Be smart and be conservative with your OCI bids.

THIS is what I meant by my comment. People at UVA last year did not bid wisely (only to DC when their grades did not meet that cut off) and got screwed over.

[JazzOne]

Most people go to law school with 0 WE

Most is an overstatement. Whatever the case, some of those without WE are well connected otherwise (I have a few such classmates), some have gone to prestigious UGs (which does appeal to some interviewers, many of whom themselves have gone to prestigious UGs), some shoot for less competitive secondary markets they're from and some, amazingly enough, have useful science majors that allow them to shoot for notably safer IP jobs.

Whatever the case, my point is that interviewing skills are much less relevant than you imagine.

I agree and disagree with you. My point, or intention wasn't to argue with anyone but to have an educated discussion which is clearly impossible to curtain degree with curtain posters which is the reason why i removed myself from discussion until I saw your post which was educated post worthwhile responding.

By bringing up OP's interviewing skills, I was giving him an example of what could be wrong. There is a lot that goes in to hiring process. My overall suggestion for OP was to evaluate his performance and compare it to his classmates, and find what could be wrong. I don't see how my suggestion to OP shows ignorance of the economy we are in as suggested by curtain posters.

Curtain? lol

[dresden doll]

Most secondary markets are worse than NYC. At CLS, one of the easiest ways to strike out was to bid on a secondary market with median grades. NYC is a hiring bonanza compared to places like Boston/Philly/LA/SF/Chicago/DC.

That's why you don't rely solely on OCI, and you don't waist your bids on firms in those markets. It's too late for you now, but for the future students that might read this, start mailing targeted apps to firms (especially ones in secondary markets) in July. Be smart and be conservative with your OCI bids.

Those with zero ties to secondary markets will not benefit from tapping firms in those areas. Hell, when I interviewed with NYC firms, they all asked without fail why I wanted to be in NYC (I've never actually lived there before). I didn't find it too difficult to justify my desire but the sheer fact that they felt obliged to ask is telling.

[prezidentv8]

Most secondary markets are worse than NYC. At CLS, one of the easiest ways to strike out was to bid on a secondary market with median grades. NYC is a hiring bonanza compared to places like Boston/Philly/LA/SF/Chicago/DC.

That's why you don't rely solely on OCI, and you don't waist your bids on firms in those markets. It's too late for you now, but for the future students that might read this, start mailing targeted apps to firms (especially ones in secondary markets) in July. Be smart and be conservative with your OCI bids.

Those with zero ties to secondary markets will not benefit from tapping firms in those areas. Hell, when I interviewed with NYC firms, they all asked without fail why I wanted to be in NYC (I've never actually lived there before). I didn't find it too difficult to justify my desire but the sheer fact that they felt obliged to ask is telling.

Even with ties and decent grades you can fail pretty easily.

[dresden doll]

Those with zero ties to secondary markets will not benefit from tapping firms in those areas. Hell, when I interviewed with NYC firms, they all asked without fail why I wanted to be in NYC (I've never actually lived there before). I didn't find it too difficult to justify my desire but the sheer fact that they felt obliged to ask is telling.

Even with ties and decent grades you can fail pretty easily.

Oh, of course. I was just putting it mildly since I only have so much patience for hopeful naysaying tonight.

[prezidentv8]

Those with zero ties to secondary markets will not benefit from tapping firms in those areas. Hell, when I interviewed with NYC firms, they all asked without fail why I wanted to be in NYC (I've never actually lived there before). I didn't find it too difficult to justify my desire but the sheer fact that they felt obliged to ask is telling.

Even with ties and decent grades you can fail pretty easily.

Oh, of course. I was just putting it mildly since I only have so much patience for hopeful naysaying tonight.

I know, I was just reflecting more on my own job search <sigh>.

[Aqualibrium]

Those with zero ties to secondary markets will not benefit from tapping firms in those areas. Hell, when I interviewed with NYC firms, they all asked without fail why I wanted to be in NYC (I've never actually lived there before). I didn't find it too difficult to justify my desire but the sheer fact that they felt obliged to ask is telling.

I had zero ties to several of the markets I got offers in, and to the market in the firm where I'll be doing my SA. I've posted about it before, so I won't go into detail here, but it's really as simple as doing good research on specific firms. Ties are what you make of them... (I'll admit though that I'm a very good interviewer)


All that aside, it really can't hurt to try can it? I mean are you really going to tell someone to waste bids at OCI on markets where they have no solid ties, and then tell that same person not to even try to get an interview outside of OCI? My philosphy has always been to exploit every single possible opportunity. That means you do the research and apply to the firms in secondary markets you might like or have even marginal connections to. You may strike out on all your mailings, but that's better than spending bids on those markets at OCI.

[A&O]

I don't disagree that people should invest in their appearance before OCI. Looking sharp can only help. However, when it's the hiring committee, as opposed to your interviewer, that's deciding who to call back, I hardly think that having looked good will help. It's not as if you can submit your pic with the resume and grades for their consideration.

When deciding whether to give callbacks, for a lot of firms, interviewing partners don't need to run their decisions by a committee. And even if they do, how you presented yourself does influence the committee's decision-making because it influences how much the partner will bat for you.

[Aqualibrium]

I don't disagree that people should invest in their appearance before OCI. Looking sharp can only help. However, when it's the hiring committee, as opposed to your interviewer, that's deciding who to call back, I hardly think that having looked good will help. It's not as if you can submit your pic with the resume and grades for their consideration.

When deciding whether to give callbacks, for a lot of firms, interviewing partners don't need to run their decisions by a committee. And even if they do, how you presented yourself does influence the committee's decision-making because it influences how much the partner will bat for you.

+1

[General Tso]

I am pretty sure both the first and second posts in this thread were by Scott Bullock, the Seton Hall/NYC troll. The OP was way too poorly written to be a legit NYU student and the 2nd included "lemmings" which appears in about 2/3 of Bullock posts.

[Anonymous User]

I get the feeling that the OP had nothing to do w/ the second post about lemmings. No idea who the Seton Hall guy is. And in one of the later post the OP apologized for his stream of conscience. Dumb comment to make 5 pages in.

[General Tso]

I get the feeling that the OP had nothing to do w/ the second post about lemmings. No idea who the Seton Hall guy is. And in one of the later post the OP apologized for his stream of conscience. Dumb comment to make 5 pages in.

Why did you need to say that anonymously?

[HITeacher2]

ITT: OT (Opening Troll) keeps posting anonymously to try to get people off his trail.

[Miracle]

This thread is full of fails, including spelling and grammar errors.

who cares about spelling and grammar

[Anonymous User]

I am pretty sure both the first and second posts in this thread were by Scott Bullock, the Seton Hall/NYC troll. The OP was way too poorly written to be a legit NYU student and the 2nd included "lemmings" which appears in about 2/3 of Bullock posts.

+1 OP does not go to NYU

[Miracle]

I agree and disagree with you. My point, or intention wasn't to argue with anyone but to have an educated discussion which is clearly impossible to curtain degree with curtain posters which is the reason why i removed myself from discussion until I saw your post which was educated post worthwhile responding.

By bringing up OP's interviewing skills, I was giving him an example of what could be wrong. There is a lot that goes in to hiring process. My overall suggestion for OP was to evaluate his performance and compare it to his classmates, and find what could be wrong. I don't see how my suggestion to OP shows ignorance of the economy we are in as suggested by curtain posters.

I know this is off-topic, but are you seriously a law school applicant GULC admit that can't spell "certain"? No wonder our industry's screwed.

Go write a book about it. Seriously, get over it.

[keg411]

I think OP is plenty believable. There are jobless NYU/CLS students. There are jobless HLS students. The market is extremely difficult no matter where you go to school.

OP: Best of luck. Your situation is pretty crappy. But I suggest you try to be as proactive about it as possible rather than being upset that you will have to do it all again next year. That is likely and you are going to have to deal with it and just try to put it out of your mind so you can focus on getting a job for this summer. If your resume screams "Criminal Law", you may have to go back to it, even if it's not your first choice (especially if you only want to try transactional work by default and can't sell your interest well).

[98234872348]

Plus, in-house = transactional and the hiring season is right now.

In-house firms don't hire freshly minted JDs, regardless of their school. You really shouldn't be giving advice if you have no idea what you're talking about.

[formerbiglawpartner]

Sorry if the truth hurts, folks. Someone posted that the on campus interviewers are "resume gatherers." While that is somewhat true, if you are chosen for an interview at the firm, every person who speaks with you will write notes on a form about you. All of those notes are gathered and reviewed by the employment committee. At that point, it's really not about resume. The resume cut was made to get you in the door for the second interview. Those notes can be everything from "Has clear ties to City X" (indicating you are more likely to stay at that particular firm) to "Very engaging and likable!" to "Horrible table manners!" (I forgot to mention manners at lunch, by the way. Bone up on your Emily Post if impeccable manners aren't second nature. It's a big deal in how you are perceived and how they anticipate you will be perceived by prospective clients.)

While if you are "brilliant but shy" you may be hired as cannon fodder for a Big Law firm, you won't have a chance of making partner these days. For the most part, firms hire people they can envision in "their club," i.e., partnership. The advice I gave is brutally honest. You need to be aware of these unwritten rules of the hiring process so you can be prepared and make your best impression.

[jchoggan]

This thread is full of fails, including spelling and grammar errors.

who cares about spelling and grammar

Hiring partners.

Meant that most govt don't offer after summer, have to get in through honors programs which are very difficult. Realize there are other transactional opportunities, and have been applying to in house and firms that can find. But my success rate has been quite low, not even getting foot in the door w/ a good number of places. Concern is that a lot of govt does pigeon hole you in very narrow litigation field, which is something may not want to do as a career or would like to develop transaction skills.

In terms of secondary markets, I'm from CA and went to school in CA, so have little connection to "secondary markets." Tried some offices in CA and TX and DC, no game. CA was prolly the worse, esp w/ the infamous Orrick telephone rejection.

Maybe the proper addition of pronouns could increase your success rate...