Texas Class of 2012 Forum

[RATRATRAT]

Not trying to bash UT or side track your thread....but could you all give some links to these great UT employment stats? From what I've seen it seems like you need to be at the top of your class at UT to land six figure firm jobs in major markets outside of Texas (DC, NYC, CA). I also noticed that you have to have the password to see UT's employment stats on the website. Not trying to down UT but that is REALLY fishy to me. I don't have anything against UT, in fact I'm considering it as one of my options next fall. But I'm worried about their career prospects (mainly for DC). Thanks!

I don't know about DC prospects, but it's kind of ridiculous to think you have to be at the top of the class at UT to make over 100k in general . . .

[RATRATRAT]

For all the hate GULC gets, and despite the fact that its career prospects are worse than UT/Vandy, it's never going to drop past #14. So long as GULC is the #14 school, the term T14 will have meaning. Every time someone asks what T14 means, USNews gets an advertisement. USNews would be foolish to let GULC's rank drop; that would destroy the internet mythology.

how are gulc's career prospects worse than UT/Vandy? i've always considered them as having a slight edge, a very expensive slight edge though

I'm not sure how bashing how some people interpret USNews was taken as implication that GULC is somehow a bad school. GULC is a great school in an enviable location and commands tremendous respect. Maybe suggesting that UT/Vandy might be a bit ahead of GULC?

UT/Vandy released their full employment stats sometime last year, iirc. Another poster on the forum posted a lengthy analysis that about 66% of UT/Vandy's classes had employment prospects for "market rate" jobs (six figures, clerkships, etc.), slightly ahead of GULC, which is a few percentage points lower based on all the available data. The bash against the T14 mentality is that if GULC and UT/Vandy aren't in the same league, there wouldn't be some years where UT/Vandy grads are ahead, and others where GULC is ahead.

I still think GULC is a bit better, but I think the legal market hasn't been as favorable for GULC as UT/Vandy, even in the years leading up to the recession. Lots of business trends could have impacted this. Houston firms have been gaining many more foreign energy clients looking to invest internationally recently, as well as arbitrate. The Original Design-Manufacture (ODM) business is also increasingly choosing Texas, such as with Foxconn's acquisition of HP's R&D facilities in Houston, which it is is now using to develop the Apple iPod.

With the recession, UT grads should be substantially ahead of GULC, just because it's bloody murder in Washington, while Texas law firms are either laying off a little bit (Locke Liddell) or not at all (Vinson and Elkins).

Just to make my intentions clear, this is not a bash against GULC, but justifies the position that the idea that there's a real barrier between the #14 and #15 schools is simply illusory. GULC/UT/Vandy are pretty much a mini-tier. But I don't see it in USNews' interests to let GULC slip past #14. It's good marketing, and like it or not, USNews' executives have a duty to shareholders, not to law students. This will probably be achieved through conservatism - avoid changing any factors in the rankings that cause that barrier to exist where it does.

Let's just be real about it: GULC sucks

[kurama20]

I wouldn't call it fishy. They probably just have things rigged that way to protect info that they only want admitted and current students to have. I'm sure you could get basic stats from the Career Services Office if you were curious.

With regard to life in DC for UT grads, have you read my post on page 11 of this thread? I summarized my conversation with a recently UT alumnus who works in DC. I can send more questions to him if you have any. Post them here or PM me. I'll call him right up.

I just read your post. Thank you for the assistance! I'm wondering what kind of GPA you need to get into the DC firms in the vault 30. Also if you could PM me the employment statistics I would GREATLY appreciate it! Thanks

[OperaAttorney]

Ok guys. I logged into the UT Austin website, but I can't find the employment stats. I keep getting the denied access message. Does someone know something I don't know?

[txag_09]

Ok guys. I logged into the UT Austin website, but I can't find the employment stats. I keep getting the denied access message. Does someone know something I don't know?

You have to request them via email. 1L's are locked out of the employment site until December (or around then).

[OperaAttorney]

Ok guys. I logged into the UT Austin website, but I can't find the employment stats. I keep getting the denied access message. Does someone know something I don't know?

You have to request them via email. 1L's are locked out of the employment site until December (or around then).

That's what I thought. I had to request the list of OCI firms via email. Their OCI list is LENGTHY!

[observationalist]

I lol'ed.

All the GULC/USNWR hate was a welcome break from my paper.

The CSO panel did seem to be under the impression that, since few UT grads want to go to NYC, those who do are eagerly sought after by the NYC firms. I dunno if this is true or not.

Stands to reason. They would be a rarer commodity. Fordham/NYU/CLS grads are just so damn cliche and boring. [/Sarcasm...sorta].

Sorry, but a UT JD can't be that much worse than a Fordham degree in NYC.

NYU/CLS, however... different story.

I think Sager's point re: UT's value in NYC was that you aren't as bad off in NYC with a UT degree as you'd be in Texas with a (say) Fordham/GULC/Vandy degree. That's not an unreasonable point at all. He's a supremely smart guy but I think he may have miscommunicated that point.

Dean Sager wouldn't seriously group Vandy in with Fordham for TX prospects, would he? That's some serious flame if he did. Texas is our 4th largest market, after NY & Atlanta and before DC. We love us some Texas, and I'm sure our school is hoping more students start looking there in the future with the way our enviro program's shaping up. We've got a new Institute for Energy & the Environment that's tailored to grad students from different disciplines looking to go into the energy sector, and our new enviro publication keeps us on top of all the new regulatory and legislative proposals likely to come down in the near future. I actually think we have one of the highest percentages of Texas-bound grads out of any out-of-state school... usually between 7-10% of the class heads west from Vanderbilt every year. There's a small but fierce constituency of Rice/UT/U of H/Baylor/A&M grads here and I highly doubt any of them would've considered heading north over UT/Vandy for Texas.

Note: I'm working with mostly UT folks this summer so I'm not looking to start a fight on your home turf thread... Austin seems like an amazing place to earn your JD and I'm definitely making it to SXSW next year. I'm just clarifying that Vandy does not equal Fordham (and especially not in Texas), and Sager is doing more than just miscommunicating if his position is otherwise.

[txag_09]

I lol'ed.

All the GULC/USNWR hate was a welcome break from my paper.

The CSO panel did seem to be under the impression that, since few UT grads want to go to NYC, those who do are eagerly sought after by the NYC firms. I dunno if this is true or not.

Stands to reason. They would be a rarer commodity. Fordham/NYU/CLS grads are just so damn cliche and boring. [/Sarcasm...sorta].

Sorry, but a UT JD can't be that much worse than a Fordham degree in NYC.

NYU/CLS, however... different story.

I think Sager's point re: UT's value in NYC was that you aren't as bad off in NYC with a UT degree as you'd be in Texas with a (say) Fordham/GULC/Vandy degree. That's not an unreasonable point at all. He's a supremely smart guy but I think he may have miscommunicated that point.

Dean Sager wouldn't seriously group Vandy in with Fordham for TX prospects, would he? That's some serious flame if he did. Texas is our 4th largest market, after NY & Atlanta and before DC. We love us some Texas, and I'm sure our school is hoping more students start looking there in the future with the way our enviro program's shaping up. We've got a new Institute for Energy & the Environment that's tailored to grad students from different disciplines looking to go into the energy sector, and our new enviro publication keeps us on top of all the new regulatory and legislative proposals likely to come down in the near future. I actually think we have one of the highest percentages of Texas-bound grads out of any out-of-state school... usually between 7-10% of the class heads west from Vanderbilt every year. There's a small but fierce constituency of Rice/UT/U of H/Baylor/A&M grads here and I highly doubt any of them would've considered heading north over UT/Vandy for Texas.

Note: I'm working with mostly UT folks this summer so I'm not looking to start a fight on your home turf thread... Austin seems like an amazing place to earn your JD and I'm definitely making it to SXSW next year. I'm just clarifying that Vandy does not equal Fordham (and especially not in Texas), and Sager is doing more than just miscommunicating if his position is otherwise.

Sager never mentioned Fordham or Vandy in his talk from what I remember. All the above is just people talking.

[SSDD]

We're #15!!! We're #15!!

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... =1&t=69258

I know it's not a huuuggee deal, but it's still nice to see us bump Vandy out of the way.

[txag_09]

Vandy this year, HLS next! Ok, I'm probably hoping for too much.

On another note, Baylor got smacked down HARD: -10 rank (65 from 55).

[de5igual]

i just wanna see gulc debunked before i graduate

preferably if we did it, but even if vandy or ucla did it, i'd still be smiling

[Snooker]

I am not happy to see Vandy fall to #17. If anyone accepted to both UCLA and Vandy chooses UCLA because the rank is "higher", they've made an enormous mistake. UCLA is a fine school and very much worth attending, but in a way that Fordham and Boston are fine schools, not in a way that GULC and Northwestern are fine schools.

As for Texas vs. Fordham in NYC, I have no doubt that Fordham places better. It's the basket all of the Fordham eggs are in. There's also a cultural standoff between the political culture of Texas (libertarian) and NYC (practically Euro-socialism). Our state isn't regarded so highly over there.

Texas offers a solid employment buffer. If you can't break top 25% or 33% or so needed for NYC, you can break top 66% needed for Texas. With Fordham, if you don't break top 33% for NYC, you're going to be doing worse than a subway operator - they earn, I recall, 54k, you'll earn 60k and pay 12k a year in debt.

Also, I see no good reason to work in NYC as an attorney. The Wall Street culture of 100 hour weeks being good for you is miserable, it's probably the reason why so many legal horror stories pour out of the city. The salary there is no better, but the cost of living is so high that a 4th year associate in NYC will still be renting crappy little apartments. They leverage associates in a cruel and unusual manner - 4 associates work under one partner, where the ratio is more like 1.5 in other cities. Texas' culture in my opinion, is much more friendly to attorneys.

[chadstew55]

Vandy this year, HLS next! Ok, I'm probably hoping for too much.

On another note, Baylor got smacked down HARD: -10 rank (65 from 55).

Yeah, that is crazy! U of H overtook them too. This is going to be big news for UH.

[de5igual]

I am not happy to see Vandy fall to #17. If anyone accepted to both UCLA and Vandy chooses UCLA because the rank is "higher", they've made an enormous mistake. UCLA is a fine school and very much worth attending, but in a way that Fordham and Boston are fine schools, not in a way that GULC and Northwestern are fine schools.

i see UT/Vandy/UCLA as essentially equals. it would be, imo, ludicrous for someone to choose one over the other due to rankings since they flip flop so much. i'm not so sure i agree with your assessment that UCLA is somehow inferior to UT/Vandy and is in the same league as Fordham (not that there's anything wrong with Fordham). doesn't it have higher peer assessment scores than vandy?

[txag_09]

Vandy this year, HLS next! Ok, I'm probably hoping for too much.

On another note, Baylor got smacked down HARD: -10 rank (65 from 55).

Yeah, that is crazy! U of H overtook them too. This is going to be big news for UH.

Hell, they both fell, but Baylor just fell harder. I guess neither of them ponied up enough cash to persuade the gurus at USNWR that they ought to keep their old spots.

[observationalist]

I am not happy to see Vandy fall to #17. If anyone accepted to both UCLA and Vandy chooses UCLA because the rank is "higher", they've made an enormous mistake. UCLA is a fine school and very much worth attending, but in a way that Fordham and Boston are fine schools, not in a way that GULC and Northwestern are fine schools.

i see UT/Vandy/UCLA as essentially equals. it would be, imo, ludicrous for someone to choose one over the other due to rankings since they flip flop so much. i'm not so sure i agree with your assessment that UCLA is somehow inferior to UT/Vandy and is in the same league as Fordham (not that there's anything wrong with Fordham). doesn't it have higher peer assessment scores than vandy?

UT just needs to keep working on improving those reputation scores which are just shy of GULC and they'll take em... in fact, going across those rows, you're matching up nicely with them. Make sure the school keeps disclosing job stats and showing more people leaving Texas for other markets, and the rep scores will continue to improve. Congrats gang, you now go to a T15.

[T17 troll wanders into his cave to study for exams, reminding himself to speak to career services about why we have the lowest bar passage rate of the top 55 law schools even though our job placement improved.]

[Snooker]

Vandy this year, HLS next! Ok, I'm probably hoping for too much.

On another note, Baylor got smacked down HARD: -10 rank (65 from 55).

Yeah, that is crazy! U of H overtook them too. This is going to be big news for UH.

I don't think the Houston firms will really notice, though. Baylor / UH are huge brands in Houston, I doubt that a sudden big flux in law school rankings will impact their grads' marketability. UH grads all know that they have a "really good law school" over there, and baylor is regarded as a "great school for Texas". I don't think the hiring partners take fluctuations seriously, nor do I think people they're marketing services to follow rankings that closely, either.

[Snooker]

I believe that in 5 years, UT could, by general consensus, be a better school than GULC. At some point assuming that UT (or, for the sake of the argument, Vandy or UCLA) does improve so substantially, USNWR has to acknowledge the change, or become irrelevant.

I don't believe that time has arrived, but, over the next few years, I will be curious to see if USNWR recognizes gradual changes or if it keeps the rankings essentially static until one year, bammo, they change everything in a big shakeup that will sell a bunch of magazines.

What factors do you think would lead UT to gain over GULC in peer assessment score? Sager magic?

[prelaw]

I believe that in 5 years, UT could, by general consensus, be a better school than GULC. At some point assuming that UT (or, for the sake of the argument, Vandy or UCLA) does improve so substantially, USNWR has to acknowledge the change, or become irrelevant.

I don't believe that time has arrived, but, over the next few years, I will be curious to see if USNWR recognizes gradual changes or if it keeps the rankings essentially static until one year, bammo, they change everything in a big shakeup that will sell a bunch of magazines.

What factors do you think would lead UT to gain over GULC in peer assessment score? Sager magic?

[OperaAttorney]

Regarding UT's employment stats: A lady in the office told me they yanked the stats off the website because the recent economic shakeup screwed with the #s. She didn't use those words, but that was the gist of it. They're preparing new stats, which will be released soon. For now prospective students--I guess admitted students who've paid seat deposits are still prospective students--can access the employment "summary" by clicking on the PROSPECTIVE STUDENTS icon on the CSO page. My response? Whatever.

[Esc]

Sorry, but a UT JD can't be that much worse than a Fordham degree in NYC.

NYU/CLS, however... different story.

I think Sager's point re: UT's value in NYC was that you aren't as bad off in NYC with a UT degree as you'd be in Texas with a (say) Fordham/GULC/Vandy degree. That's not an unreasonable point at all. He's a supremely smart guy but I think he may have miscommunicated that point.

Dean Sager wouldn't seriously group Vandy in with Fordham for TX prospects, would he? That's some serious flame if he did. Texas is our 4th largest market, after NY & Atlanta and before DC. We love us some Texas, and I'm sure our school is hoping more students start looking there in the future with the way our enviro program's shaping up. We've got a new Institute for Energy & the Environment that's tailored to grad students from different disciplines looking to go into the energy sector, and our new enviro publication keeps us on top of all the new regulatory and legislative proposals likely to come down in the near future. I actually think we have one of the highest percentages of Texas-bound grads out of any out-of-state school... usually between 7-10% of the class heads west from Vanderbilt every year. There's a small but fierce constituency of Rice/UT/U of H/Baylor/A&M grads here and I highly doubt any of them would've considered heading north over UT/Vandy for Texas.

Note: I'm working with mostly UT folks this summer so I'm not looking to start a fight on your home turf thread... Austin seems like an amazing place to earn your JD and I'm definitely making it to SXSW next year. I'm just clarifying that Vandy does not equal Fordham (and especially not in Texas), and Sager is doing more than just miscommunicating if his position is otherwise.

Sager never mentioned Fordham or Vandy in his talk from what I remember. All the above is just people talking.

All Sager said, as I recall, was that a UT Law J.D. was more employable in NYC than UT's ranking would suggest, simply because of its rarity, due to the fact that most students self-select for Texas.

[chadstew55]

Vandy this year, HLS next! Ok, I'm probably hoping for too much.

On another note, Baylor got smacked down HARD: -10 rank (65 from 55).

Yeah, that is crazy! U of H overtook them too. This is going to be big news for UH.

I don't think the Houston firms will really notice, though. Baylor / UH are huge brands in Houston, I doubt that a sudden big flux in law school rankings will impact their grads' marketability. UH grads all know that they have a "really good law school" over there, and baylor is regarded as a "great school for Texas". I don't think the hiring partners take fluctuations seriously, nor do I think people they're marketing services to follow rankings that closely, either.

haha, I wasn't suggesting that it would make some substantive change in the legal market, but that UH administration would be pretty excited. They are pretty obsessed with this if I remember correctly. Didn't they fire a dean after they fell in the rankings one time?

[observationalist]

All Sager said, as I recall, was that a UT Law J.D. was more employable in NYC than UT's ranking would suggest, simply because of its rarity, due to the fact that most students self-select for Texas.

Yeah, I agree with that wholeheartedly. Self-selection is big... we've thought about conducting surveys at the beginning of 1L year to have everyone document what (if any) market(s) they're favoring going into law school. If nothing else, it would be encouraging if X% said NY and X% end up there. It would be a good way to supplement employment data by showing that people aren't getting shut out of their preferred markets.

[Esc]

All Sager said, as I recall, was that a UT Law J.D. was more employable in NYC than UT's ranking would suggest, simply because of its rarity, due to the fact that most students self-select for Texas.

Yeah, I agree with that wholeheartedly. Self-selection is big... we've thought about conducting surveys at the beginning of 1L year to have everyone document what (if any) market(s) they're favoring going into law school. If nothing else, it would be encouraging if X% said NY and X% end up there. It would be a good way to supplement employment data by showing that people aren't getting shut out of their preferred markets.

Sounds like a very good idea, to me. That would be incredibly useful data for any prospective student.

[Snooker]

Vandy this year, HLS next! Ok, I'm probably hoping for too much.

On another note, Baylor got smacked down HARD: -10 rank (65 from 55).

Yeah, that is crazy! U of H overtook them too. This is going to be big news for UH.

I don't think the Houston firms will really notice, though. Baylor / UH are huge brands in Houston, I doubt that a sudden big flux in law school rankings will impact their grads' marketability. UH grads all know that they have a "really good law school" over there, and baylor is regarded as a "great school for Texas". I don't think the hiring partners take fluctuations seriously, nor do I think people they're marketing services to follow rankings that closely, either.

haha, I wasn't suggesting that it would make some substantive change in the legal market, but that UH administration would be pretty excited. They are pretty obsessed with this if I remember correctly. Didn't they fire a dean after they fell in the rankings one time?

Point taken!

Rankings obsession seems to be pretty common at law schools across the country. I think the pressure comes from the students - the administrations in general are staffed by responsible people who know that rankings are mostly a big game, but with all the pressure from students to play the rankings game, they're more or less trapped. It's gotten to the bizarre point where law school deans meet with USNews to discuss rankings issues, and law reviews publish suggestions on how to revise the rankings.

A way out of this mess, in my opinion, would be for the ABA to require that law schools publish comprehensive and accurate salary data from graduates. If NALP can say the median starting salary is 60k, then Fordham can knock 100k off their reported median starting salary of $160,000. Once applicants know exactly know a school fares in the market, they'll order their choices accordingly, and this can be a factor in rankings.

This should be in the ABA's interests, too. Once people realize lawyers are not guaranteed six figure salaries right out the gates, fewer will be willing to put down 150k on law school, and there will be fewer lawyers.