3.86/167 - am I done for?

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insupliquitous

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3.86/167 - am I done for?

Post by insupliquitous » Mon Nov 30, 2020 2:14 am

Can I still get into T14 with those stats or am I finished? In particular, Cornell and Gtown. Wish I had gotten one more point on the LSAT.

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cavalier1138

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Re: 3.86/167 - am I done for?

Post by cavalier1138 » Mon Nov 30, 2020 10:13 am

The lower T13 and Georgetown are definitely in reach with those numbers. You might not get great scholarship offers outside of Cornell, though.

The good news is that you can never be "done for," because you can retake the LSAT. If you wish you had just gotten one more point (or two, or three), then retake for those points.

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Dcc617

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Re: 3.86/167 - am I done for?

Post by Dcc617 » Tue Dec 01, 2020 1:01 am

Yeah, you're likely at a dangerous point where you CAN get into a T14 but SHOULDN'T. Don't go to law school at sticker. If you're set on T14 probably retake. And extra couple points could literally save you tens of thousands of dollars.

ConstellationMiracle

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Re: 3.86/167 - am I done for?

Post by ConstellationMiracle » Fri Dec 25, 2020 5:56 am

You have an amazing GPA, and if you can get it higher by just a couple more points, which I believe you can definitely do, then you will have amazing options at CCN. If you're feeling even more ambitious, maybe postpone a cycle and reach the mid 170s to get HYS.

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nilescrane

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Re: 3.86/167 - am I done for?

Post by nilescrane » Thu Jan 07, 2021 2:00 pm

I did, yes. Accepted to Georgetown at 3.7 GPA and 163 LSAT, waitlist Columbia. Also accepted to USC.

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namefromplace

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Re: 3.86/167 - am I done for?

Post by namefromplace » Thu Jan 07, 2021 3:47 pm

nilescrane wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 2:00 pm
I did, yes. Accepted to Georgetown at 3.7 GPA and 163 LSAT, waitlist Columbia. Also accepted to USC.
That is definitely out of the ordinary. I applied a few years ago with a higher GPA and LSAT than you and was waitlisted by Georgetown.

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Re: 3.86/167 - am I done for?

Post by ohsaycanyousee » Sun Jan 10, 2021 5:29 am

Isn't this right on par with Berkeley's numbers? Entering class profile says 3.81/168. You seem like you have a decent shot at Berkeley.

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Re: 3.86/167 - am I done for?

Post by aegor » Mon Jan 11, 2021 2:37 am

ConstellationMiracle wrote:
Fri Dec 25, 2020 5:56 am
You have an amazing GPA, and if you can get it higher by just a couple more points, which I believe you can definitely do, then you will have amazing options at CCN. If you're feeling even more ambitious, maybe postpone a cycle and reach the mid 170s to get HYS.
FWIW with basically that GPA at HYPS and a 174 I got Hammie at Columbia, WL at HS, and R from Y. Obviously I took the money and ran.

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Re: 3.86/167 - am I done for?

Post by CREature » Tue Jan 12, 2021 2:33 pm

Dcc617 wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 1:01 am
Yeah, you're likely at a dangerous point where you CAN get into a T14 but SHOULDN'T. Don't go to law school at sticker. If you're set on T14 probably retake. And extra couple points could literally save you tens of thousands of dollars.
This is probably the best advice here. I had about those scores, got into a T14 school but turned it down for a scholarship at a ~T30 school. Saved me $100k, and I still ended up with a job at a top biglaw firm in NYC. T14 helps but it isn’t everything.

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cavalier1138

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Re: 3.86/167 - am I done for?

Post by cavalier1138 » Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:12 am

CREature wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 2:33 pm
Dcc617 wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 1:01 am
Yeah, you're likely at a dangerous point where you CAN get into a T14 but SHOULDN'T. Don't go to law school at sticker. If you're set on T14 probably retake. And extra couple points could literally save you tens of thousands of dollars.
This is probably the best advice here. I had about those scores, got into a T14 school but turned it down for a scholarship at a ~T30 school. Saved me $100k, and I still ended up with a job at a top biglaw firm in NYC. T14 helps but it isn’t everything.
That's not quite what the post was saying. They were advocating that OP retake the LSAT, not that they accept a top regional school's offer with a good scholarship.

If you want biglaw, then going anywhere outside the T13 is taking a serious risk that you won't end up with that job. It's great that it worked out for you, but it's objectively wrong to tell others that it's a likely outcome.

mwells_56

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Re: 3.86/167 - am I done for?

Post by mwells_56 » Wed Jan 13, 2021 1:33 pm

FWIW I had similar numbers (3.7x and 168) in the 2017-18 cycle and ended up with a nice scholarship at Georgetown and offers to go to WashU and Fordham for close to free.

CREature

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Re: 3.86/167 - am I done for?

Post by CREature » Thu Jan 14, 2021 1:04 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:12 am
CREature wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 2:33 pm
Dcc617 wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 1:01 am
Yeah, you're likely at a dangerous point where you CAN get into a T14 but SHOULDN'T. Don't go to law school at sticker. If you're set on T14 probably retake. And extra couple points could literally save you tens of thousands of dollars.
This is probably the best advice here. I had about those scores, got into a T14 school but turned it down for a scholarship at a ~T30 school. Saved me $100k, and I still ended up with a job at a top biglaw firm in NYC. T14 helps but it isn’t everything.
That's not quite what the post was saying. They were advocating that OP retake the LSAT, not that they accept a top regional school's offer with a good scholarship.

If you want biglaw, then going anywhere outside the T13 is taking a serious risk that you won't end up with that job. It's great that it worked out for you, but it's objectively wrong to tell others that it's a likely outcome.
No, the point of the post was don’t go to law school at sticker price. If you’re set on T14, take the LSAT again. If you don’t want to take the LSAT again, you can go to a lower tier school with a scholarship. If you work your ass off at a ~T30-40, you can get a biglaw job—just check with career services before you put your deposit down to make sure biglaw firms recruit at your school. I’m not saying you’ll get a job at Cravath or Wachtell, but there are a lot of great places to work that are not Cravath and still pay market or just below market.

Not everyone can go T14 and not everyone can get a job at a V10 (and guess what? You don’t need to, to be happy and successful). Pushing the narrative that these are the end all be all (not saying you are, but a lot of people on this forum do) is unhealthy and makes for a terrible law school and post-law school experience, and I think a major contributor to the mental health crisis in the law profession.

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Re: 3.86/167 - am I done for?

Post by ALCA1920 » Sat Jan 16, 2021 5:04 pm

I second CREature.

OP, you can keep retaking the lsat until you get above T14 medians and get scholarship money to go. Understand, though, that you're not guaranteed biglaw at those schools either. Another viable alternative is to go to a school that will offer you good scholarship money and has decent biglaw placement– think UT, vandy, wustl, and some T30/T40s like Fordham and Boston College. They still post decent numbers for about 40% of the graduating class who wanted those jobs. Even if you don't get biglaw there, at least you won't have monstrous debt to worry about.

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nixy

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Re: 3.86/167 - am I done for?

Post by nixy » Sat Jan 16, 2021 5:18 pm

I think it’s a little irresponsible to say that if you work your ass off, you can get a biglaw job from a T30-40 school. You might. You might be someone who doesn’t get law school exams right away. You might get sick during exams or during OCI. You might face an economic downturn.

I’m not saying that a T30-40 on a big scholarship is necessarily a bad option, but if you are biglaw or bust it is important not to just assume that you can just outwork your classmates and get biglaw. You probably will need to work your ass off, but that’s not always enough.

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Re: 3.86/167 - am I done for?

Post by ALCA1920 » Sat Jan 16, 2021 6:04 pm

nixy wrote:
Sat Jan 16, 2021 5:18 pm
I think it’s a little irresponsible to say that if you work your ass off, you can get a biglaw job from a T30-40 school. You might. You might be someone who doesn’t get law school exams right away. You might get sick during exams or during OCI. You might face an economic downturn.

I’m not saying that a T30-40 on a big scholarship is necessarily a bad option, but if you are biglaw or bust it is important not to just assume that you can just outwork your classmates and get biglaw. You probably will need to work your ass off, but that’s not always enough.
That works both ways. I think it's a little irresponsible to say that biglaw is guaranteed from t14 (namely gtown/cornell, the schools that OP referenced). You might be someone who doesn't get law school exams right away. You might get sick during exams or during OCI. You might face an economic downturn. You might not like law anymore and drop out, or you might fail the bar exam and your prestigious law degree becomes little more than toilet paper. T14 might also be a lot more expensive for OP even with two more LSAT points than a respectable T20-T40 school that offers a full tuition+stipend deal.

Wait, so do people at T14 not need to work their asses off to get biglaw, or is it all handed to them on a silver platter? Seems that roughly 50-60% of the lower T14 get biglaw (I mean, Gtown got as low as 40% in the early 2010s if LST is anything to go by), but what about the people who don't get it and are stuck with 6-figure debt?

I think the takeaway for OP should be that if they're super desperate for a biglaw job and want it at all costs, they should go to a t14, where the chances of that might be better. It'll be more expensive, though, and they might need to wait another year for a potential LSAT retake. On the other hand, if OP wants to go next fall, they can still get into a respectable school that gives them a good scholarship and a decent (albeit not guaranteed) chances at biglaw, or other good employment outcomes elsewhere. It's up to OP if they want to listen to some anonymous forum posters' advice.

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Re: 3.86/167 - am I done for?

Post by cavalier1138 » Sun Jan 17, 2021 7:56 am

CREature wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 1:04 pm
If you work your ass off at a ~T30-40, you can get a biglaw job
I agree with nixy in full. This is technically correct (you can get biglaw by working your ass off), but it's dangerous advice that implies hard work is the only factor in getting biglaw from a regional school.
ALCA1920 wrote:
Sat Jan 16, 2021 6:04 pm
Wait, so do people at T14 not need to work their asses off to get biglaw, or is it all handed to them on a silver platter? Seems that roughly 50-60% of the lower T14 get biglaw (I mean, Gtown got as low as 40% in the early 2010s if LST is anything to go by), but what about the people who don't get it and are stuck with 6-figure debt?
There's a reason that everyone up-thread was recommending a retake. No one at all is advocating Georgetown at sticker for biglaw. But yes, when you go to a T13, median (and for some people, below-median) performance is sufficient to get biglaw. And at the T13, it is significantly harder to land below the median. By contrast, you need to be in the top 30% (minimum) at a regional powerhouse to stand a chance at biglaw.

No one is saying that a strong regional school at full scholarship is a bad financial decision. But the OP has only articulated a desire to go to a top school, which suggests that they are biglaw-or-bust. And if that's the case, then the strongest regional school will still be a massive gamble compared to Cornell. That leads us back full circle to the original advice: If the OP wants to attend the T13, they should retake the LSAT to open up the possibility of scholarship offers from those schools.

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Re: 3.86/167 - am I done for?

Post by nixy » Sun Jan 17, 2021 9:51 am

ALCA1920 wrote:
Sat Jan 16, 2021 6:04 pm
nixy wrote:
Sat Jan 16, 2021 5:18 pm
I think it’s a little irresponsible to say that if you work your ass off, you can get a biglaw job from a T30-40 school. You might. You might be someone who doesn’t get law school exams right away. You might get sick during exams or during OCI. You might face an economic downturn.

I’m not saying that a T30-40 on a big scholarship is necessarily a bad option, but if you are biglaw or bust it is important not to just assume that you can just outwork your classmates and get biglaw. You probably will need to work your ass off, but that’s not always enough.
That works both ways. I think it's a little irresponsible to say that biglaw is guaranteed from t14 (namely gtown/cornell, the schools that OP referenced). You might be someone who doesn't get law school exams right away. You might get sick during exams or during OCI. You might face an economic downturn. You might not like law anymore and drop out, or you might fail the bar exam and your prestigious law degree becomes little more than toilet paper. T14 might also be a lot more expensive for OP even with two more LSAT points than a respectable T20-T40 school that offers a full tuition+stipend deal.
No one said that biglaw is guaranteed at the T14, just that there’s a much bigger margin for error. (I think it’s big enough that you actually don’t have to work as hard - it’s a lot easier to be at or above median than it is to guarantee top 1/3rd or better, in part because the group at median is pretty large.) I’m also not telling anyone they have to go the T14, only saying they shouldn’t claim that hard work guarantees a biglaw job. Again, I never claimed you couldn’t strike out at a T14.

The lower ranked school + money is a good deal depending on what a person’s goals are. But hard work there isn’t a guarantee of biglaw.

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Re: 3.86/167 - am I done for?

Post by CREature » Mon Jan 18, 2021 2:14 am

nixy wrote:
Sat Jan 16, 2021 5:18 pm
I think it’s a little irresponsible to say that if you work your ass off, you can get a biglaw job from a T30-40 school. You might.
Irresponsible is a strong word.... Nothing is guaranteed, and people should understand that (if they don’t, we have bigger problems).

OP: You have good grades and a good LSAT score. Work hard. Be normal. Don’t drive yourself crazy being a prestige whore. You’ll be fine.

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