I Desperately Want to Transfer Forum

[ATandTLily]

I don't know if my situation is an anomaly due to COVID or if my school truly is as awful as it seems right now.
Currently a 1L at the end of the 4th week. I thought things would be getting better by now, but they aren't. I want to stress that I estimate roughly 90% of the difficulty I'm having right now is with the actual school, not the "general law school difficulties" that typically come along with (and are expected in) law school.

Outside of briefly skimming a few posts here, I haven't had any time yet to look into what is involved in the transfer process. I was getting the impression that scholarships are out the window for this? So I'll briefly lay out my situation and I welcome whatever criticism is going to come along with it- especially for not having done my part of researching the matter yet.

I currently have a scholarship covering about 85% of my tuition at a not top 100 school.
I had similar offers from better schools (Top 70? State schools) but I willfully chose my current school based on very personal reasons (location) which I thought outweighed everything else.
And now I wake up every morning filled with regret that I chose the school I did. I feel like it's one of the biggest mistakes I've made in my life.

What are my options? Since I'm only 4 weeks in, am I better off completely withdrawing and then trying to start elsewhere next semester or next year? Should I finish the semester? The year? Do my previous scholarship offers from the other schools carry any weight? For example, if I wanted to go to one of the better schools that offered me a scholarship, can I begin talks with them based on that? Or is it just like starting the admissions process all over again from scratch?

I welcome all input aside from the generic "wHaT DiD yOu ExPeCt fRoM a bOtToM-tiEr LaW sChoOL?"; You're not saying anything new or helpful or that I'm not already aware of.

[cavalier1138]

[modhat]
I moved this to the main Admissions forum because the Transfers forum is only for 1Ls with at least a semester of grades.
[/modhat]

Right now, you're probably better off dropping out, because transferring means you almost certainly won't get a scholarship at the new school (assuming you can get into a better school, which is not a guarantee by any means). But that said, there are two questions you should answer that could help people figure out whether it makes sense for you to drop out and reapply in another cycle:

1. What are the specific difficulties you're having at school? Your post initially makes it sound like it's something regarding school culture, but you then spent most of your time lamenting the school's low ranking.

2. What are your career goals, and where do you want to work? You can keep location vague by just specifying whether you want to work in the same state where you're attending school.

[The Lsat Airbender]

Agree that, at this stage, it'd be better to cut bait and drop out than to stick around hoping to transfer. Unless you're on track for awesome 1L grades, which is highly unlikely given how miserable you are, your transfer options from a TTT are going to be pretty grim.

You'll need to explain why you dropped out, if you do so and then reapply, but it's pretty easy to just blame COVID.

[AJordan]

+1 for drop out. Cut them the $5k check or whatever and bolt and reapply later. You can always play the COVID card when asked why you decided to do so. I don't think anybody would hold that against you.

What you should do in the follow depends on your goals and numbers the same as every applicant.

[ATandTLily]

1. What are the specific difficulties you're having at school? Your post initially makes it sound like it's something regarding school culture, but you then spent most of your time lamenting the school's low ranking.

2. What are your career goals, and where do you want to work? You can keep location vague by just specifying whether you want to work in the same state where you're attending school.

1. The school can't seem to "get it together". And it's all small stuff that should be non-issues (or I assume would be non-issues if we were meeting in person. I only have one class in person right now; five online. The one in person class seems to be the only one I don't experience issues in. Between the other five you would expect one uniform platform right? No. Some are on Zoom, some on blackboard collaborate, some on Microsoft team meeting.
**Some do attendance through zoom, some automatically do attendance through BB, some make it you sign into TWEN and it's under assignments/quizzes, some under TWEN on sign up sheets, some run a poll on Zoom; The ones that do it automatically I'm never 100% sure if they're actually taking attendance.
**Finding the online classrooms has been a nightmare. We'd experience issues with Zoom, so they'd move the class to Blackboard.....and not tell anyone. No email sent out, no notification of any kind. Have to email the professor or TA and then they act as if they're being put out.
**Class cancellations, no notification.

**I finally emailed the person they directed us to email if we were experiencing issues- (a type of dean of student affairs). I felt like I had no idea what I was doing. I felt like I was overwhelmed with all the logistical problems and it made it incredibly difficult to focus on actual school work---so she pawned it off on one of her assistants, before I could set up a meeting with her- she pawned it off on someone else who wanted to schedule a meeting during one of my classes. They have our class schedule/availability through MS Outlook....but that wasn't the issue. She literally said to due the meeting DURING the class. WTF?

Finally got a meeting scheduled with the original person and she said she understood and a lot of people have been experiencing the same problems etc. and then she said something about how they should be going over this in my assigned small group. I was completely confused. And then we found out that the school had never added me to one of my REQUIRED courses/small groups. I had no idea it even existed.

**The school got me added to the group the next day. I emailed the leader of the group and was like "Hey, this is what's going on. This is what I'm confused about. And this is why it's stressing me out. Can you help?"
And she responded with something to the effect of, "well we're not meeting next week because Monday is Labor Day. And yeah, everyone is confused in legal writing- that's normal."

That's the help I got after reaching out to probably 7 different people. I finally reached out to the campus mental health practitioner to schedule a meeting because I felt like I was losing my mind and I had no one I could relay my problems to. Multiple emails back and forth, meeting was scheduled, said they'd shoot me a Zoom link the day of....time came and went, no email, I followed up asking what was going on, and they were like "oh I didn't even have it on my calendar I'm so sorry....can you do it at 11?" No, I have class then. Which is why I scheduled it for 10. It just goes hand in hand with everything else I've experienced at this school.
The dean of student affairs wanted to schedule a follow up appointment with me to see how things changed over the week......but then couldn't make it fit into her schedule.
"Ask professors for help." Yeah, I've tried. None of them have office hours posted...and they're just kind of winging it. Different times each week...usually during a time when I have class.


***Most importantly I feel like I'm not learning anything. I'm teaching myself everything. I expected a fair amount of "figure it out on your own" when it comes to law school....but not everything. Our Torts teacher asked what we were learning in Crim Law and the entire class of 52 people was dead silent. Nobody knew. And then there was laughter because everyone realized at once that we were all in the same boat. We found out the next day that three people have already dropped out of Crim law "for unknown reasons" just from our section. The Crim law book we were re-assigned was written by the professor and I don't know what we're supposed to learn from it. I read an entire chapter that was nothing more than an article he had published somewhere and it was about prison rape and how awful prison is. That was the assignment: reading about guys being anally raped and weird sex caste culture in prison. Not sure if it's going to be on the final....

I truly feel like I'm learning nothing and it gives me a huge amount of anxiety just thinking about the bar and how ill prepared we'll be. I cannot believe some people are paying $40k+ a year for this. We have our first legal writing memo due next week and a contracts mid-term. Legal Writing makes me question my will to live. Most students do not seem to be doing well under this online learning experience.



2. Career goals- I don't know. I thought I did. But I really don't know now. I've wanted to do everything from criminal defense (pub defender/wrongful convictions), to employment law, to litigation. It only makes sense to go to this school if I plan on doing criminal defense/wrongful convictions. I kind of don't care now. Everything about this school gives me bad vibes. I strictly chose this school because of location. It basically meant I didn't have to move...which was important for personal reasons. But at this point, I have to put that aside for own mental health.

I was accepted to better schools within the mid-west: Michigan State, Nebraska, Missouri....could've gotten into Kansas and others but didn't apply there because there didn't seem to be a point. MS and Neb technically gave me better offers. (I even paid a seat deposit at one of them I ended up not going to.)

Realistically, if I dropped out, what does my process going forward look like? Do I have to take the LSAT again? Do I have to re-apply at all these schools? Can I start in Spring or do I have to wait a YEAR until next fall? I kind of, sort of, really absolutely do not want to wait another year.

[cavalier1138]

It sounds like about 90% of your issues fall into the "It's a global pandemic, and professors who already have trouble updating their class pages are going to have even more trouble navigating distance learning tools." That doesn't mean you don't have a legitimate complaint; it just has nothing to do with your law school.

Similarly, you would feel like you were "not learning anything" at every law school in the country. Professors expect you to do the reading, understand the case law, and then come to class to discuss the law, not for them to teach you what the law is. Granted, my understanding of T3/T4 schools is that they will tend to spend more time teaching black-letter law, but the point of law school teaching is not to get you to memorize rules or "learn the law." The goal is to get you to think like a lawyer, which is why the first part of law school feels so confusing; you're learning a new way of thinking about problems. If the only point of law school were to shove enough black-letter law into your head for you to pass the bar, then law school would only be two months.

That said, you need to drop out, and you need to take stock, because your second response raises several red flags:

Career goals- I don't know. I thought I did. But I really don't know now. I've wanted to do everything from criminal defense (pub defender/wrongful convictions), to employment law, to litigation. It only makes sense to go to this school if I plan on doing criminal defense/wrongful convictions. I kind of don't care now. Everything about this school gives me bad vibes. I strictly chose this school because of location. It basically meant I didn't have to move...which was important for personal reasons. But at this point, I have to put that aside for own mental health.

I was accepted to better schools within the mid-west: Michigan State, Nebraska, Missouri....could've gotten into Kansas and others but didn't apply there because there didn't seem to be a point. MS and Neb technically gave me better offers. (I even paid a seat deposit at one of them I ended up not going to.)

Realistically, if I dropped out, what does my process going forward look like? Do I have to take the LSAT again? Do I have to re-apply at all these schools? Can I start in Spring or do I have to wait a YEAR until next fall? I kind of, sort of, really absolutely do not want to wait another year.

Point-blank: Your reason for choosing this law school was bad. Unless you want to work in this school's state/city (which you clearly didn't, based on how geographically diverse your other options are), you shouldn't be going there.

It sounds like you're more excited about the idea of going to law school than the idea of actually practicing law, which is why you should cut your losses and get a better handle on what you want for yourself. If you want local criminal practice, that's fine, but you need to figure out what "local" means before committing to a school that will confine you to a particular region.

Once you have a better sense of your career goals, then start figuring out which law schools will help you meet those, what cost would be appropriate for those schools, and what LSAT you need to get in order to get admission/scholarship to those schools. When you do that, you will likely discover that you need to retake the LSAT. And to answer your more practical question, you need to wait for the fall. There are schools that do spring starts, but none of those schools are worth it.

Law school isn't going anywhere. It sounds like you rushed this decision, so don't compound the mistake by trying to continue that rush. Drop out. Reset. And make sure you know what you want before you leap into a six-figure financial commitment.

[ATandTLily]

It sounds like about 90% of your issues fall into the "It's a global pandemic, and professors who already have trouble updating their class pages are going to have even more trouble navigating distance learning tools." That doesn't mean you don't have a legitimate complaint; it just has nothing to do with your law school.

Similarly, you would feel like you were "not learning anything" at every law school in the country. Professors expect you to do the reading, understand the case law, and then come to class to discuss the law, not for them to teach you what the law is. Granted, my understanding of T3/T4 schools is that they will tend to spend more time teaching black-letter law, but the point of law school teaching is not to get you to memorize rules or "learn the law." The goal is to get you to think like a lawyer, which is why the first part of law school feels so confusing; you're learning a new way of thinking about problems. If the only point of law school were to shove enough black-letter law into your head for you to pass the bar, then law school would only be two months.

That said, you need to drop out, and you need to take stock, because your second response raises several red flags:

Point-blank: Your reason for choosing this law school was bad. Unless you want to work in this school's state/city (which you clearly didn't, based on how geographically diverse your other options are), you shouldn't be going there.

It sounds like you're more excited about the idea of going to law school than the idea of actually practicing law, which is why you should cut your losses and get a better handle on what you want for yourself. If you want local criminal practice, that's fine, but you need to figure out what "local" means before committing to a school that will confine you to a particular region.

Once you have a better sense of your career goals, then start figuring out which law schools will help you meet those, what cost would be appropriate for those schools, and what LSAT you need to get in order to get admission/scholarship to those schools. When you do that, you will likely discover that you need to retake the LSAT. And to answer your more practical question, you need to wait for the fall. There are schools that do spring starts, but none of those schools are worth it.

Law school isn't going anywhere. It sounds like you rushed this decision, so don't compound the mistake by trying to continue that rush. Drop out. Reset. And make sure you know what you want before you leap into a six-figure financial commitment.

Like I said, I realize that the majority of the issues I mentioned would typically be considered "non-issues"....it's just that they compound an already stressful situation. In the worst way.

I'm not more excited about law school than practicing law; if I had my way I would skip it altogether and just bar prep, but unfortunately I'm not in one of the four states that allows that.
The decision wasn't rushed. This is something that has been on the horizon for probably the last 4 years.
The reason for this school/this location is because I have a child here. We have shared custody but made arrangements to allow for my going to school. I was well aware that school would take up the majority of all available time in a day/week/month/year, but didn't like the idea of being 2-5 hours away- like say in the event of an emergency.
I *still* don't like that, but I really don't like this school. I've discussed this option with the other parent who is ambivalent about law school in general and not helpful in making any kinds of decisions.

There is no six figure commitment being made. I think you missed it in my initial post, but my scholarship is currently covering 85%+ of my tuition. I'm only on the hook for roughly $7k a year. I don't have to borrow for living expenses due to settlement payouts earlier in the year.

Ultimately I figured no matter where I went to school I would end up back "here" because of family obligations. I believed the hype of "go to school where you want to practice", but now I am questioning that.
Serious question for you (no sarcasm): Do you think going to a state school ranked around #65-75 in another state is a worse option than going to a school ranked 100+ in the city you'll probably end up at?

[lavarman84]

Serious question for you (no sarcasm): Do you think going to a state school ranked around #65-75 in another state is a worse option than going to a school ranked 100+ in the city you'll probably end up at?

It depends how low ranked that school is. But assuming it's pretty close to 100 (gonna venture a guess and say your law school starts with a "D"), the out of state schools are worse options unless they'll cost you significantly less money. Speaking frankly (and not intending to be insulting), you seem like an anxious mess right now. I understand things are stressful, but you have to find a way to manage it if you decide to move forward. Some people enjoy law school (I did). Some people hate it. Either ways, just find a way to get through it, do fairly well, and then pass the bar (since you seem to know you want to be a lawyer). Professors and deans are hit and miss everywhere. COVID and remote learning have only complicated things for everybody.

[cavalier1138]

Do you think going to a state school ranked around #65-75 in another state is a worse option than going to a school ranked 100+ in the city you'll probably end up at?

Yes. Ultimately, if you know you want to work in a particular location, then it's important to go to school there (or at least the state flagship school).

There is no six figure commitment being made. I think you missed it in my initial post, but my scholarship is currently covering 85%+ of my tuition. I'm only on the hook for roughly $7k a year. I don't have to borrow for living expenses due to settlement payouts earlier in the year.

I wasn't referring to your current situation. If you drop out and reapply, you'll need to reevaluate your options. I'm still not 100% sold on dropping out for you, because I don't know what state you're in and what your other options should be. But your complaints about law school are not specific to your current school, even if you really think they are. You'd be having the exact same issues anywhere else in the country.

I agree with lavarman that you sound like you aren't in a good mental place at the moment. If you think that's going to get worse, then maybe dropping out and at least deferring for a year is a good choice, even if you don't end up applying to different schools.