Everything is Imploding Forum

[Uncreative123]

I haven't received my Jan. LSAT score yet (first ever), but I did receive my "adjusted" LSAC GPA today and it has destroyed any confidence I had. While I was expecting it to go UP from 3.16 (because of my school's grading scale and my Graduate level coursework that had a cumulative 3.90 GPA) I was devastated to find out that it had in fact been reduced to 2.94. I don't understand why LSAC would request a Graduate transcript if it essentially has no impact. There does not seem to be any upside to this, yet I'm sure if you had done poorly in graduate school that it would work against you. I'm not even sure how to approach this in an addendum without sounding like I'm making excuses, "Well my ACTUAL GPA was...."
Schools only give a shit about two things: GPA and LSAT numbers. It is of little solace to me that schools "may look favorably" at my grad. gpa.

I know the only way to offset this is through the LSAT, but I am not near the 170 range. I have zero aspirations to go to a T20 as I have resigned myself to the fact that I will have to stay relatively local, for a variety of reasons (and there are no T20 schools near here), but I was counting on scholarships/grants which I feel are now completely out of reach. I was already in a difficult position because I have to have to apply for Fall 2020 (2021 is not an option). I am signed up for the Feb. LSAT (barring some miracle score I receive for Jan) which again, puts me in an even more difficult situation if I have to rely on my Feb. score.

What is my question? I'm not sure I have one. I don't see a way out of this. But maybe someone reading this will feel better knowing, "Yikes, at least I'm not that person."

[logan3000]

not sure what to tell you my friend!

[FND]

LSAC GPA does not include graduate school. Graduate school doesn't have a big impact on admissions. It's a nice soft, but that's it. (ok, if you got an MBA from Wharton or an MPA from Princeton or something like that, it might have a more noticeable impact).

Luckily, you're already resigned to going to a local school, so it's not earth-shattering. Depending on the school, if you get a good enough LSAT you could still get some money. Maybe not a full ride, but $10k per year is still something.

Remember, this board is called "Top Law Schools", so it's heavily geared toward T14 and Biglaw/Fed Clerkship. that's maybe 10% of all law school attendees in the country. Missing out on that upper echelon is not all doom and gloom. If you know you want to be a lawyer, and you must go this year and locally, go for it. Just be realistic about your lifestyle after you graduate

[QContinuum]

I don't understand why LSAC would request a Graduate transcript if it essentially has no impact. ... I'm not even sure how to approach this in an addendum without sounding like I'm making excuses, "Well my ACTUAL GPA was...."

Absolutely do not write such an addendum. A GPA addendum is for the relatively rare scenario where you have a compelling explanation for a sudden, eyebrow-raising dip in performance. Say, you were a straight-A student every single semester in college, except for one semester where you received 3 Cs - because a close relative had severe health issues. That would warrant a GPA addendum. But every single applicant has their LSAC GPA calculated the exact same way. Do not write a GPA addendum protesting the LSAC GPA calculation.

(Also, LSAC requests all transcripts because this is part of their "credential assembly service" - it frees you up from having to send transcripts to every school you apply to, because LSAC collects and summarizes all of your transcripts. You'll still have to send transcripts to whichever school you end up matriculating to, but you won't have to send transcripts to any other law school.)

I know the only way to offset this is through the LSAT, but I am not near the 170 range. I have zero aspirations to go to a T20 as I have resigned myself to the fact that I will have to stay relatively local, for a variety of reasons (and there are no T20 schools near here), but I was counting on scholarships/grants which I feel are now completely out of reach. I was already in a difficult position because I have to have to apply for Fall 2020 (2021 is not an option).

The LSAT is one of the most "study-able" tests out there. And there is basically no situation where anyone ever "has" to go to law school immediately.

I recognize that in many cases it is desirable to attend law school sooner rather than later, but that doesn't mean delaying a year is "impossible". It's just inconvenient and unpleasant and unwanted, but so are many things in life worth working for. Likewise, I do not mean to handwave the difficulty of the LSAT. It's a tough test, and even tougher to approach a 170. But, it's doable, and the TLS community stands ready to help you achieve your goals.

What do you want to do as a lawyer? Depending on your goals, it may make total sense to attend a local law school, or it may not. If attending a local law school wouldn't help you achieve your goals, then you should not attend.

[The Lsat Airbender]

I have to have to apply for Fall 2020 (2021 is not an option).

doubt.jpg

[Uncreative123]

I don't understand why LSAC would request a Graduate transcript if it essentially has no impact. ... I'm not even sure how to approach this in an addendum without sounding like I'm making excuses, "Well my ACTUAL GPA was...."

Absolutely do not write such an addendum. A GPA addendum is for the relatively rare scenario where you have a compelling explanation for a sudden, eyebrow-raising dip in performance. Say, you were a straight-A student every single semester in college, except for one semester where you received 3 Cs - because a close relative had severe health issues. That would warrant a GPA addendum. But every single applicant has their LSAC GPA calculated the exact same way. Do not write a GPA addendum protesting the LSAC GPA calculation.

I recognize that in many cases it is desirable to attend law school sooner rather than later, but that doesn't mean delaying a year is "impossible". It's just inconvenient and unpleasant and unwanted, but so are many things in life worth working for. Likewise, I do not mean to handwave the difficulty of the LSAT. It's a tough test, and even tougher to approach a 170. But, it's doable, and the TLS community stands ready to help you achieve your goals.

What do you want to do as a lawyer? Depending on your goals, it may make total sense to attend a local law school, or it may not. If attending a local law school wouldn't help you achieve your goals, then you should not attend.

I'm very late in responding because I've been filling out apps and surprise surprise, studying for the Feb. LSAT because January was a disaster. Honestly, I'm interested in becoming a public defender and then possibly branching out on my own after that. Not interested in "big law". I didn't come to this decision lightly- it's been marinating for about four years now. The 'local' school here has a great criminal law program and a lot of externship/internship opportunities plus pretty much all the law firms in the state are here (capital) and are in some ways partnered with them. I'm not worried about getting accepted, I am more concerned about having to pay anything over half tuition. I don't want to pay anything, really. It's not even a T100 school, yet every attorney in this city seems to have graduated from there. The only other option in the state is a T27.

As far as the doubt.jpg goes I'm not going to go into detail. I know some admissions peruse the forums here and I'm trying to remain relatively anonymous. In a nutshell, I was "gifted" a certain amount of time (no control over when it happened) to prepare for the LSAT and get accepted into a school. That window closes for me next month no matter what and there will be no time to study or retake the LSAT beyond that. I am no spring chicken- and believe it or not, some people who say "it's not an option to go in 2021" really do have obstacles that would prevent them from going in 2021---usually financial, sometimes exacerbated by tax implications, employment, and a slew of other things.

[cavalier1138]

As far as the doubt.jpg goes I'm not going to go into detail. I know some admissions peruse the forums here and I'm trying to remain relatively anonymous. In a nutshell, I was "gifted" a certain amount of time (no control over when it happened) to prepare for the LSAT and get accepted into a school. That window closes for me next month no matter what and there will be no time to study or retake the LSAT beyond that. I am no spring chicken- and believe it or not, some people who say "it's not an option to go in 2021" really do have obstacles that would prevent them from going in 2021---usually financial, sometimes exacerbated by tax implications, employment, and a slew of other things.

This only increases my level of doubt (.jpg). I'm pretty creative, and I can't think of a situation--financial or otherwise--that would make law school a great proposition in 2020 and an impossible proposition in 2021. From one autumnal poultry bird to another: One way or another, law school means losing money, even if it's just giving up three years of potential income. Rushing this decision can be financially ruinous.

[The Lsat Airbender]

In a nutshell, I was "gifted" a certain amount of time (no control over when it happened) to prepare for the LSAT and get accepted into a school. That window closes for me next month no matter what and there will be no time to study or retake the LSAT beyond that.

I don't mean to be harsh, but in that case it sounds like you've squandered this window and you shouldn't go to law school. You will make your life materially worse in so many ways by attending the sort of school that would accept you this late in the cycle, with those numbers.

[Uncreative123]

In a nutshell, I was "gifted" a certain amount of time (no control over when it happened) to prepare for the LSAT and get accepted into a school. That window closes for me next month no matter what and there will be no time to study or retake the LSAT beyond that.

I don't mean to be harsh, but in that case it sounds like you've squandered this window and you shouldn't go to law school. You will make your life materially worse in so many ways by attending the sort of school that would accept you this late in the cycle, with those numbers.

I had from October til now to study for the Jan & Feb. LSAT. That's it. I studied 6-8 hours a day, every day. I don't see how that equates to squandering time. As I said, I didn't have control over the timeframe during which this occurred. Also- I provided one number (singular) and I stated I have no desire to go to a T20 school. I have two options for schools, which I also already mentioned: a T30 and a T120. When you have a child it's not as easy as going wherever you'd like. I'm not about to just up and leave the state. I don't believe applying late in the cycle is the death sentence you're purporting it to be. And if I can swing a 168 Feb. LSAT then yeah, I think I can get into "the sort of school" I need to.

[LSATWiz.com]

I don't understand why LSAC would request a Graduate transcript if it essentially has no impact. ... I'm not even sure how to approach this in an addendum without sounding like I'm making excuses, "Well my ACTUAL GPA was...."

Absolutely do not write such an addendum. A GPA addendum is for the relatively rare scenario where you have a compelling explanation for a sudden, eyebrow-raising dip in performance. Say, you were a straight-A student every single semester in college, except for one semester where you received 3 Cs - because a close relative had severe health issues. That would warrant a GPA addendum. But every single applicant has their LSAC GPA calculated the exact same way. Do not write a GPA addendum protesting the LSAC GPA calculation.

I recognize that in many cases it is desirable to attend law school sooner rather than later, but that doesn't mean delaying a year is "impossible". It's just inconvenient and unpleasant and unwanted, but so are many things in life worth working for. Likewise, I do not mean to handwave the difficulty of the LSAT. It's a tough test, and even tougher to approach a 170. But, it's doable, and the TLS community stands ready to help you achieve your goals.

What do you want to do as a lawyer? Depending on your goals, it may make total sense to attend a local law school, or it may not. If attending a local law school wouldn't help you achieve your goals, then you should not attend.

I'm very late in responding because I've been filling out apps and surprise surprise, studying for the Feb. LSAT because January was a disaster. Honestly, I'm interested in becoming a public defender and then possibly branching out on my own after that. Not interested in "big law". I didn't come to this decision lightly- it's been marinating for about four years now. The 'local' school here has a great criminal law program and a lot of externship/internship opportunities plus pretty much all the law firms in the state are here (capital) and are in some ways partnered with them. I'm not worried about getting accepted, I am more concerned about having to pay anything over half tuition. I don't want to pay anything, really. It's not even a T100 school, yet every attorney in this city seems to have graduated from there. The only other option in the state is a T27.

As far as the doubt.jpg goes I'm not going to go into detail. I know some admissions peruse the forums here and I'm trying to remain relatively anonymous. In a nutshell, I was "gifted" a certain amount of time (no control over when it happened) to prepare for the LSAT and get accepted into a school. That window closes for me next month no matter what and there will be no time to study or retake the LSAT beyond that. I am no spring chicken- and believe it or not, some people who say "it's not an option to go in 2021" really do have obstacles that would prevent them from going in 2021---usually financial, sometimes exacerbated by tax implications, employment, and a slew of other things.

You seem pretty riled up and stressed out about this so I'm not going to conflict with you but breakdown what you might be going through so that maybe you can read it and think about whether you are making the best decision for yourself given the circumstances.

Your posts that state you were given a certain amount of time and need to apply now suggest that perhaps you were let go, and given a severance package that allowed you to study for the LSAT for a few months. That time is about to end and you may have planned a way to support yourself until the fed loans kick in that allow you to go to school next year. This assumption may be wrong and it could be something in your personal life, but that came with the same deadline for support and cutting support.

If I am correct, let's unpack this:

You're making a major life and financial investment - tuition money + 3 years of your life based largely on an impending deadline and feeling stressed/older, etc. Every decision we make from what we eat for breakfast to going on a first date with someone is an investment, but most decisions don't have big consequences so it's fine to go off of sudden, immediate feelings.

Other investments are big - which job you take, what to do with your life savings, etc. You don't want emotion or feeling "trapped" to be your primary reason for making any major investment. Law school is a huge investment, probably a bigger investment than stocks or real-estate, because (1) you don't have to commit 3 years of your life to these other investments, and (2) the net benefit is less zero-sum. It's rare your property in Louisiana or investment in Apple will go down to $0 and it's also readily tradable. A law degree is not. You either win, lose, or wind up somewhere in between (working long hours for many years for okay pay).

We don't know what your LSAT score is but given that you stated you never prepped close to a 170 and stated the last LSAT was a disaster, I'm going to assume you either have no score or a score below a 160.

We also don't know your exact reason for having to start next year and it's unlikely that this is is a life adaptation of the 1994 film "Speed" in which you need to complete law school by 2023 or a busload of innocent people will die. If this is the case, I'd urge you to keep in mind that you're dealing with criminals and there's no guarantee that finishing law school in 2023 will guarantee they set the people on the bus free. Also, do you have any reason to believe they're going to feed the hostages and care for them to ensure their survival through 2023? Even in this circumstances, I'd urge you to contact the authorities and not just follow the terrorists' instruction even though I admire your commitment to saving the hostages.

If you are not entangled in trying to save a busload of hostages, I'm going to assume your reasons for having to start law school next year are either (1) age, (2) finances, or some mixture of both. Let's look at these separately.

(1) Age

I don't know how old you are. In truth, it doesn't really matter if you graduate at 50 or 51. You're going to be old regardless, have fewer working years left, and are going to encounter some ageism. It won't be very different either way.

What I will say is this. There are some ways to offset ageism. Law is a lot of stressful and sedentary work so lawyers do not tend to be the fittest people in the world. It's a little bit like in football where the most predictive aspect of someone's future career health wise isn't how old they are but how many snaps they have played. The 30 year old lawyer with 5 years experience who is 40 pounds overweight and breathes heavily may have fewer working years left than the 40 year old rookie with 8% body fat. I'd say getting in great shape before starting law school can offset your age to some extent at least from a working year standpoint.

The other thing is if you do have fewer working years, you have less time to build yourself up and pay off debt over a long period. It's hard to transition from being unemployed to gainful employment in law, much harder than other fields. You definitely cannot come out unemployed when you are 50.

(2) Finances

The need to support yourself with government backed loans is a bad place to be in. It's basically a payday loan because you have to pay them back in 3 years along with tuition. This is a big deal because tuition will be at least 200% of your living expenses, probably a lot more. You can argue that it comes with the added benefit of a career, but that's only the case if you have access to that career.

Let's transition to what seems to be your plan:

Your plan seems to be - "I will not pursue competitive jobs, but will be okay with being a public defender so I repay my loans with LRAP and earn a living wage". This assumes that public defender jobs are not competitive. They are!

Unemployment from 2nd, 3rd, and 4th Tier schools is a huge thing - a lot of students are unemployed or in positions with $50 or $60k starting salaries while repaying six-figure debt. Do you really not think that 90% of these students would take the PD job over no job or the $50k insurance defense job with little upwards mobility and no LRAP? Let me clue you in on a secret - they all would!

This is a bad plan because it seems to be emotion and stress fueled, and not a rational analysis of likely outcomes under the circumstances and a mature risk:reward analysis.

If you are cash strapped and need to support yourself next year, there are many cheap areas in the country you can move to for next to something and find a way to earn money online or wait tables or work at a 7/11. You can always find a way to find some form of employment and if you're smart enough to hold down any job and graduate college, always some job you can take to support yourself. Throw your pride aside if it's only one year. Who gives a shit what people think about you for one year?

If law is what you want, you need a mid-160s LSAT with that GPA at the very least. If you're thinking, "well, I have a great Grad School GPA so they'll overlook the college GPA," you're going to be very disappointed. That just isn't what they do. If you are older, then they will overlook your college GPA relative to someone younger with that GPA because they have your LSAT. What they won't do is overlook your college GPA and LSAT, and focus only on your grad school GPA. That just isn't going to happen.

I apologize if any of this post offends you, but this does reflect the reality of your situation, which isn't that bad of a situation because you haven't made any irreversible decisions yet. It sounds like you are about to. I'm not saying "don't do it" because you are so passionate about this you will take that as a conflict and only cling harder to your emotions.

What I'm saying is try to think about your situation unemotionally, consider the evidence, and try to make the choice you'd counsel your client to make if they were in this same situation and you were an objective third party looking to help them. In many ways, we are all our own biggest clients regardless of whether we're first starting law school or 10-years out. Learn to counsel yourself and make the best choices for yourself.

[antelope]

Based on what you mentioned, I know the schools you're talking about. Without naming them, I can tell you that it's possible to get into the T30 if you get your lsat above their 75th. Not sure if you've done research on their admissions, but they admit about 40% of applicants and they barely get applicants compared to other T30s. This info is out there, it's one of the least selective schools in that ranking range. For in state tuition, it's a good choice, and you should focus on getting there. Don't look at the other school, it's a waste of money and time. Look at their profiles on LST and ABA reports to compare as well.

Here is some info from college scorecard so you can compare some finances:

T30
Median debt $62,249
Median salary $62,700

TTT
Median debt $116,863
Median salary $52,200

Focus on improving the LSAT, it's possible. Just target the areas you need improvement and don't sign up until you hit the target score in practice, don't waste money just signing up on the fly.

[Uncreative123]

Your posts that state you were given a certain amount of time and need to apply now suggest that perhaps you were let go, and given a severance package that allowed you to study for the LSAT for a few months. That time is about to end and you may have planned a way to support yourself until the fed loans kick in that allow you to go to school next year. This assumption may be wrong and it could be something in your personal life, but that came with the same deadline for support and cutting support.

Based on what you mentioned, I know the schools you're talking about. Without naming them, I can tell you that it's possible to get into the T30 if you get your lsat above their 75th. Not sure if you've done research on their admissions, but they admit about 40% of applicants and they barely get applicants compared to other T30s. This info is out there, it's one of the least selective schools in that ranking range. For in state tuition, it's a good choice, and you should focus on getting there. Don't look at the other school, it's a waste of money and time. Look at their profiles on LST and ABA reports to compare as well.

Here is some info from college scorecard so you can compare some finances:

T30
Median debt $62,249
Median salary $62,700

TTT
Median debt $116,863
Median salary $52,200

Focus on improving the LSAT, it's possible. Just target the areas you need improvement and don't sign up until you hit the target score in practice, don't waste money just signing up on the fly.

You're both very highly perceptive. A few things were glossed over though. Again, this wasn't a knee-jerk decision to pursue law school- it's something that I have wanted to do for years and now finally have the opportunity to do so. Cost and debt are ultimately irrelevant to me. If I cared about that I certainly wouldn't have aspirations of becoming a public defender. Financial status is not important to me. And what makes you think I haven't already racked up a six-figure student loan debt? Furthermore, what makes you think I wasn't already working at a job making LESS than $50k a year while having a six-figure student loan debt? In that case, would adding another $100k to the debt pile really be a bad decision? Obviously it's not preferable and that's why I'm trying to get the highest LSAT score I can in an attempt to offset that, but again, I don't really care one way or the other. After dedicating half of my life and going to the #1 school in the country for [specific focus], I wasn't even using my degree (for the most part).
The job I was in was a nightmare. There may or may not have been a lot of public coverage on it and there may or may not be pending lawsuits in regards to it- which also ties in with why I'm not really worried about the cost too much.
As far as age and exercising goes, I don't want to go into it because that's essentially what my entire personal statement is about.


As far as both the T30 and T120 schools go, I am aware of all the stats and I am still torn on where to go. The price difference I find to be a one of the best examples of problems with current law schools/higher education in general. The T30 is supposedly a much better school, but pretty much all the lawyers in the T120 city went to the T120 school and there are probably 50x more law firms in T120 city PLUS the overwhelming majority of the PD/prosec. jobs in the state are in T120 city. If you do know the schools, then you also know that T120 supposedly has one of the top (15-20) criminal law programs in the country, which is what I'm interested in. By staying in T120 city I can continue to work one of my jobs (high paying, but only 8-10 hours week)
I had two family members that graduated from T30 and one of them was/is... sort of well known there I guess I'd say. I'm trying not to address it, but the application asks if you had family that went there- and we also share the same last name. I know it only helps me, but I don't want that to be a deciding factor.
I don't really want to move, but it's a better school, so again, I'm torn. I'd be interested to hear feedback about this though.

[FND]

As far as both the T30 and T120 schools go, I am aware of all the stats and I am still torn on where to go. The price difference I find to be a one of the best examples of problems with current law schools/higher education in general. The T30 is supposedly a much better school, but pretty much all the lawyers in the T120 city went to the T120 school and there are probably 50x more law firms in T120 city PLUS the overwhelming majority of the PD/prosec. jobs in the state are in T120 city. If you do know the schools, then you also know that T120 supposedly has one of the top (15-20) criminal law programs in the country, which is what I'm interested in. By staying in T120 city I can continue to work one of my jobs (high paying, but only 8-10 hours week)

With the exception of the T14, location matters more than rank. University of Iowa and University of Alabama are both ranked in the top 30, but only place locally. If you're looking to work in southern California, you're better off not just going to Pepperdine (51) or Loyola (62), even Chapman (132) or unranked California Western.

Likewise, if you're planning to live and work in, say, Montana, you're better off going to University of Montana than any T1 school.

If there's a local law school and most of the attorneys in your town attended that law school, then it's perfectly fine to go to that law school. Especially if you can continue to work your current job.


BUT there is no such thing as "one of the top (15-20) criminal law programs". That's the kind of B.S. that lets underperforming schools sound better than they are. The best law schools for crim? Yale, Stanford, Harvard. Best law schools for corporate? Yale, Stanford Harvard.

While it is true that certain schools have more of a focus on certain areas, such as UConn & insurance, or Oregon & animal law, those are not generic topics taught at all law schools, and the schools focus more heavily in those topics because there happens to be more of a need in that area (e.g. Connecticut being a major insurance hub, Delaware having significant corporate work, etc.). If you want to work in Connecticut, go to UConn. If you want to work in insurance anywhere other than Connecticut, go to a local school.

[Uncreative123]

As far as both the T30 and T120 schools go, I am aware of all the stats and I am still torn on where to go. The price difference I find to be a one of the best examples of problems with current law schools/higher education in general. The T30 is supposedly a much better school, but pretty much all the lawyers in the T120 city went to the T120 school and there are probably 50x more law firms in T120 city PLUS the overwhelming majority of the PD/prosec. jobs in the state are in T120 city. If you do know the schools, then you also know that T120 supposedly has one of the top (15-20) criminal law programs in the country, which is what I'm interested in. By staying in T120 city I can continue to work one of my jobs (high paying, but only 8-10 hours week)

With the exception of the T14, location matters more than rank. University of Iowa and University of Alabama are both ranked in the top 30, but only place locally. If you're looking to work in southern California, you're better off not just going to Pepperdine (51) or Loyola (62), even Chapman (132) or unranked California Western.

Likewise, if you're planning to live and work in, say, Montana, you're better off going to University of Montana than any T1 school.

If there's a local law school and most of the attorneys in your town attended that law school, then it's perfectly fine to go to that law school. Especially if you can continue to work your current job.


BUT there is no such thing as "one of the top (15-20) criminal law programs". That's the kind of B.S. that lets underperforming schools sound better than they are. The best law schools for crim? Yale, Stanford, Harvard. Best law schools for corporate? Yale, Stanford Harvard.

While it is true that certain schools have more of a focus on certain areas, such as UConn & insurance, or Oregon & animal law, those are not generic topics taught at all law schools, and the schools focus more heavily in those topics because there happens to be more of a need in that area (e.g. Connecticut being a major insurance hub, Delaware having significant corporate work, etc.). If you want to work in Connecticut, go to UConn. If you want to work in insurance anywhere other than Connecticut, go to a local school.

The top 15-20 crim law standing wasn't something boasted by the school- I believe I found it here: http://www.nationaljurist.com/prelaw/to ... iminal-law
There were other sites that actually listed *why* some of the schools were ranked better for crim law and went more in depth about the programs.
As far as practicing in the state you go to school in, I know that is typically the standard, but with Uniform Bar Exams (UBE) doesn't that make that concept more or less obsolete? I obviously don't know shit about UBEs, but that seems to be the impression a lot of schools are giving.

And I guess while I'm here, I'd also like to know what people think of this:

"The application deadline is March 2nd, but we will still accept application after that date. I would advie* that you have the rest of your application complete and submitted before March 2nd and when your February LSAT score is released, the application will be released to the school. If you already have an LSAT score on file, just send us an email when you submit your application that you would like to have your application reviewed with your February LSAT score and we will hold it for review until those scores are released. Please let me know if you have any other questions!"

This was from an admissions counselor at a different school. Feb LSAT scores aren't released until 3/17 I believe. I *want* to do this because I feel like it'll allow me to have my cake and eat it too, but will they actually hold it for review? I do not want to have it even looked at with only my Jan LSAT score and then just sitting there in limbo until my Feb score comes in. I may potentially have to write an LSAT addendum too. **Keep in mind when responding: I'm not trying to go to top-tier schools**

[nixy]

The regionalism of schools isn't about the bar exam (though that probably helped exacerbate it in the past), but just awareness/interest/where your alumni networks are. If you want to work in Montana, you should go to school in Montana not because of the bar exam, but because lots of lawyers in Montana will have gone to the University of Montana, or will know other lawyers who have, so it's a known quantity and creates relevant connections. If you go to law school in Montana, then decide to practice in Ohio, no one in Ohio will know anyone who went to U of Montana or will know anything about the school, and they'll hire someone who went to an Ohio school instead.

Re: the criminal law thing - if you're the National Jurist, and you want to create rankings of things, you can come up with rankings of schools for criminal law. But it's not really meaningful. Criminal law is a huge field and every single law school can prepare you to do criminal law (in part b/c it's part of a school's accreditation because it's part of the bar exam). Things like clinics run by the school are nice, but sort of irrelevant because generally, you can go intern for the local public defender's office without any kind of school clinic behind it, and get just as good if not better experience for a future job. You will be able to get experience relevant to criminal law at any law school.

Re: the LSAT bit - you'll need to check with the specific school, but chances are good they will hold an application for a pending score. There's no need to worry about them looking at it before your Feb LSAT comes in (if you tell them that score is coming), because they're not going to look at an application until it's complete. You will be reviewed super late, though, which will put you at a disadvantage (both generally and specifically wrt scholarships).

[FND]

Nixy gave some great answers above. If they fall on deaf ears, there's not much to be done about it.

As an addendum to the LSAT score, I know from experience that if you're borderline, some schools may even sit on your application until after the June exam.

[LSATWiz.com]

Your posts that state you were given a certain amount of time and need to apply now suggest that perhaps you were let go, and given a severance package that allowed you to study for the LSAT for a few months. That time is about to end and you may have planned a way to support yourself until the fed loans kick in that allow you to go to school next year. This assumption may be wrong and it could be something in your personal life, but that came with the same deadline for support and cutting support.

Based on what you mentioned, I know the schools you're talking about. Without naming them, I can tell you that it's possible to get into the T30 if you get your lsat above their 75th. Not sure if you've done research on their admissions, but they admit about 40% of applicants and they barely get applicants compared to other T30s. This info is out there, it's one of the least selective schools in that ranking range. For in state tuition, it's a good choice, and you should focus on getting there. Don't look at the other school, it's a waste of money and time. Look at their profiles on LST and ABA reports to compare as well.

Here is some info from college scorecard so you can compare some finances:

T30
Median debt $62,249
Median salary $62,700

TTT
Median debt $116,863
Median salary $52,200

Focus on improving the LSAT, it's possible. Just target the areas you need improvement and don't sign up until you hit the target score in practice, don't waste money just signing up on the fly.

You're both very highly perceptive. A few things were glossed over though. Again, this wasn't a knee-jerk decision to pursue law school- it's something that I have wanted to do for years and now finally have the opportunity to do so. Cost and debt are ultimately irrelevant to me. If I cared about that I certainly wouldn't have aspirations of becoming a public defender. Financial status is not important to me. And what makes you think I haven't already racked up a six-figure student loan debt? Furthermore, what makes you think I wasn't already working at a job making LESS than $50k a year while having a six-figure student loan debt? In that case, would adding another $100k to the debt pile really be a bad decision? Obviously it's not preferable and that's why I'm trying to get the highest LSAT score I can in an attempt to offset that, but again, I don't really care one way or the other. After dedicating half of my life and going to the #1 school in the country for [specific focus], I wasn't even using my degree (for the most part).
The job I was in was a nightmare. There may or may not have been a lot of public coverage on it and there may or may not be pending lawsuits in regards to it- which also ties in with why I'm not really worried about the cost too much.
As far as age and exercising goes, I don't want to go into it because that's essentially what my entire personal statement is about.


As far as both the T30 and T120 schools go, I am aware of all the stats and I am still torn on where to go. The price difference I find to be a one of the best examples of problems with current law schools/higher education in general. The T30 is supposedly a much better school, but pretty much all the lawyers in the T120 city went to the T120 school and there are probably 50x more law firms in T120 city PLUS the overwhelming majority of the PD/prosec. jobs in the state are in T120 city. If you do know the schools, then you also know that T120 supposedly has one of the top (15-20) criminal law programs in the country, which is what I'm interested in. By staying in T120 city I can continue to work one of my jobs (high paying, but only 8-10 hours week)
I had two family members that graduated from T30 and one of them was/is... sort of well known there I guess I'd say. I'm trying not to address it, but the application asks if you had family that went there- and we also share the same last name. I know it only helps me, but I don't want that to be a deciding factor.
I don't really want to move, but it's a better school, so again, I'm torn. I'd be interested to hear feedback about this though.

You can write addendums about how your GPA isn't indicative of your #'s so they will focus more on the LSAT, and how the LSAT isn't indicative of your #'s so they should focus more on the GPA. Between going back and forth, maybe they'll confuse your #'s with someone else's. It's not 0%. Other than that, I don't know what advice people can give you to increase your chances.

[LSATWiz.com]

But in all seriousness, there's nothing wrong with using nepotism. The possibility of nepotism is what inspires many people unmotivated by material possessions to keep trying after they've achieved a certain standard of success. If you can benefit from it, then great.

The issue is that nepotism is less common in law school than elsewhere. For instance, George W. Bush was rejected from Texas Law when his father was governor of Texas. I highly doubt that George W. had a sub-150 LSAT and few people graduate from Yale with a sub-3.0 GPA. It's also hard to picture too many college professors giving the governor's son a C.

To the extent family ties matter, it's really only if your relatives are big donors and actively reach out on your behalf, and in light of the recent college scandal, this too is probably less likely than usual.

[FND]

But in all seriousness, there's nothing wrong with using nepotism. The possibility of nepotism is what inspires many people unmotivated by material possessions to keep trying after they've achieved a certain standard of success. If you can benefit from it, then great.

The issue is that nepotism is less common in law school than elsewhere. For instance, George W. Bush was rejected from Texas Law when his father was governor of Texas. I highly doubt that George W. had a sub-150 LSAT and few people graduate from Yale with a sub-3.0 GPA. It's also hard to picture too many college professors giving the governor's son a C.

To the extent family ties matter, it's really only if your relatives are big donors and actively reach out on your behalf, and in light of the recent college scandal, this too is probably less likely than usual.

Without nepotism we wouldn't have had 2 of the last 3 presidents.

[antelope]

OP, there's a grad from the T30 taking questions over at the ask a law student forum. This person would probably offer better answers about the specific school and current legal market in the state

[QContinuum]

But in all seriousness, there's nothing wrong with using nepotism. The possibility of nepotism is what inspires many people unmotivated by material possessions to keep trying after they've achieved a certain standard of success. If you can benefit from it, then great.

The issue is that nepotism is less common in law school than elsewhere. For instance, George W. Bush was rejected from Texas Law when his father was governor of Texas. I highly doubt that George W. had a sub-150 LSAT and few people graduate from Yale with a sub-3.0 GPA. It's also hard to picture too many college professors giving the governor's son a C.

To the extent family ties matter, it's really only if your relatives are big donors and actively reach out on your behalf, and in light of the recent college scandal, this too is probably less likely than usual.

Without nepotism we wouldn't have had 2 of the last 3 presidents.

Obviously nepotism is hugely influential in society generally, but law school admissions (and, to a somewhat lesser extent, BigLaw hiring) seems to be a bit of an exception to its pervasiveness everywhere else. Part of this is that law school admissions is numbers-driven to such an extent that it is much harder to do nepotism "discreetly".